News from the observer

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

You're just into stealing all my lines tonight aren't you?

 

Must be another fan.

 

Perhaps you should go watch again...this time check your anti-smark attitude at the door and listen.

 

The truth will set you free.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

I know people who ATTENDED the shows, and they say Jericho was geeting great heat. arena reactions don't always transfer so well over to tv.

 

Jericho's heat didn't begin to noticebly dwindle until he began appearing with stephanie.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

There seems to be no use arguing with him cobainwasmurdered.

 

All the proof in the world is not enough to overcome his "opinion".

 

He's one of those.

[Guest Tony149]

I seen those shows. Compare his heat to Kurt Angle's Heat and tell me who would make a better heel champion. Hell, compare his heat to William Regal's heat and tell me who would make a better heel champ. Just because he's a smark favorite, doesn't mean we have to rewrite history.

No way did Regal have more heat than Jericho. Jericho was pretty over. His stuff with Rock, Flair & RVD had him over. Then his feud with RVD is dropped and Jericho starts appearing on the midcard as WWF Champion. He gets paired with Steph (Who seems to get involved in every top angle somehow), becomes her bitch, and plays second to a dog. It seemed like they were building a Steph vs. HHH match at WM then HHH vs. Jericho.

[Guest TheHulkster]

At least cobain puts up a decent arguement. I guess im "one of those". Yes, im one of those objective people that sees things as they are and isn't a stereotypical internet mark who only cheers for who the guys on the net tell me to cheer for because they can do no wrong, and they are extremely over and talented, but its always the man thats pushing him down, All the bad angles in the WWF are Stephaine's fault and all the good ones were written by Heyman, and Hogan never drew a dime, and means nothing to wrestling except for the fact that he held every single member of wcw that wasnt in the main event down. If im not one of those, then thank god.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

There seems to be no use arguing with him cobainwasmurdered.

 

All the proof in the world is not enough to overcome his "opinion".

 

He's one of those.

god fan boys piss me off me.....

 

it's all very well and good to like a wrestler or to hate a wrestler but you have to realize that just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's correct.

 

ok i'm done, i'll try and stop arguing with fan boys, it doesn't do any good anyway.

[Guest razazteca]

The only time I remember seeing Jericho as a badass heel was when he attacked Austin with the beer cooler then taunted Austin with the beer.

 

Come to think about it Jericho was destined to fail as champ just look at the cage match against Austin after the PPV he was crowned Undisputed Champ.  Austin had Jericho bleeding and was in control of the match most of the time, Austin was going to win the match but looked back to see Jericho giving him the finger, so Austin went back to punish Jericho more, which lead to outside interference for a Jericho win.

 

Jericho vs Rock did not help much either, in one of their 20 minute speeches Jericho said "I'm serious" looking like a little boy about to get beat up by the school yard bully.

 

Jericho then became a side note in the HHH vs Stephanie angle where the Wedding was main event on Raw while Jericho was regulated to being a crybaby underdog champ.

 

Then of course there is the lotion and dog skits before WMX8.

 

Jericho was destined to fail because he had no chance of getting over, as the I wish I was Mikey Whipwreck Champ gimmick!

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

At least cobain puts up a decent arguement. I guess im "one of those". Yes, im one of those objective people that sees things as they are and isn't a stereotypical internet mark who only cheers for who the guys on the net tell me to cheer for because they can do no wrong, and they are extremely over and talented, but its always the man thats pushing him down, All the bad angles in the WWF are Stephaine's fault and all the good ones were written by Heyman, and Hogan never drew a dime, and means nothing to wrestling except for the fact that he held every single member of wcw that wasnt in the main event down. If im not one of those, then thank god.

Hogan hasn't been benifical to a wrestling company since he jobbed to Goldberg in Atlanta on Nitro. I'll tell you the reason hogan pops big numbers...he goes away for awhile and then comes back, it spikes interest for aawhile and then people realize that it's the same old hogan and they change the channel.

 

His refuesal to work with guys who were the future of the Wcw helped (helped but didn't do buy itself) wcw's collapse into medericraty.

 

and know hogan is back nd the ratings are going up. well i am willing to bet that in a month's time barring any major angles the ratings will be back down and people will be chanting "hogan sucks"

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

At least cobain puts up a decent arguement. I guess im "one of those". Yes, im one of those objective people that sees things as they are and isn't a stereotypical internet mark who only cheers for who the guys on the net tell me to cheer for because they can do no wrong, and they are extremely over and talented, but its always the man thats pushing him down, All the bad angles in the WWF are Stephaine's fault and all the good ones were written by Heyman, and Hogan never drew a dime, and means nothing to wrestling except for the fact that he held every single member of wcw that wasnt in the main event down. If im not one of those, then thank god.

I wonder why people like you even come on to the internet since it is such a one track mind kind of place.

 

I also wonder why this site has so many hits and replies...when everyones opinion is the same.

 

Yes, Cobain does make a good argument...

 

I don't know how:  Go look at the videotape...isn't a good argument...but what the hell.

 

Drop the anti-everything on the internet gimmick...it's been done to death.

 

It's the most ironic statement you could make too...since that's what everyone who can't back up their points says.  They always end up playing the anti-smark card.

 

I don't know what your pre-conceived notions about the smarks told you...but I'll take the time to clue you in.

 

The smarks is diversity in discussion of a product and business that is a shared common interest of the community.

 

The smarks discuss what is right in the business...what is wrong in the business and offer suggestions as to how it could be bettered.

 

Does anyone on here expect it to make a difference?  Of course not.  We aren't "in" the business.

 

We are merely observers, who choose to spend some time and thought on discussing what we love.

 

To say that a certain wrestler is an "internet" or a "smark" favorite is ridiculous.  I like RVD, Austin and Steamboat.  You like Hogan.  Are we not both on the internet?

 

What does internet favorite mean anyway?

 

People who come on the internet to discuss wrestling know that it is not a black and white discussion.

 

And my name isn't internet.

[Guest TheHulkster]

Never did i say there was anything wrong with the internet, but it has its fair share of people that share a one sided view of things. There are many on the internet that are objective. I like going online and finding out the happening of pro wrestling because i like pro wrestling, and i like talking to others about pro wrestling, and as confrontational as this arguement has been, I like it, but don't try and be defender and hero of all the internet. Just like the WWF, like it or not, the Internet wrestling scene has its fair share of marks.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Never did i say there was anything wrong with the internet, but it has its fair share of people that share a one sided view of things. There are many on the internet that are objective. I like going online and finding out the happening of pro wrestling because i like pro wrestling, and i like talking to others about pro wrestling, and as confrontational as this arguement has been, I like it, but don't try and be defender and hero of all the internet. Just like the WWF, like it or not, the Internet wrestling scene has its fair share of marks.

i think your being one sided too. and not at all objective.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

That's fair.

 

But when you come on so strong with your anti-smark statements, and counter a solid statement with confrontation...

 

That's a good way to get labeled quickly on the site.

 

I hope that it doesn't happen to you, because I like diverse discussion, and opinionated posters.

 

And you certainly fit those qualities.

[Guest TheHulkster]

Agreed, if it weren't for differing opinions then these boards would suck because we would all be jerking the same people off in text every day and everything would be positive, and we would be one step away from turning into a star trek message board.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Alright then.  We agree to disagree.

 

Which I am sure we will be doing for many nights to come.

 

Looking forward to it.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

hell yeah. this has been one of the best threads in a while.

[Guest TheHulkster]

Besides, what else is there to do @ 3:22 in the morning?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The answer:

 

Sleep.

 

And that is what I will now do.

 

Godnight everyone.

 

Welcome to the board, The Hulkster.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

i dunno, it's 12:30 here. and i still have to do a huge projcet on MAcbeth for class tomorrow

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

TheHulkster, I would basically just ignore most of BPS's childish insults. If you've spent any time here you will quickly come to the conclusion he's just some dork with no life who tries to act like he "runs" this board, as if he has some sort of standing here because he wastes a lot of time posting. This is obvious from the fact that because I don't drink his "RVD rulz HHH sux" kool-aid, he now starts throwing my name into topics where I haven't even replied. In fact, I'm sure you'll find soon that he just replies to your posts by bashing Hogan rather than actually trying to argue what you are saying.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

BPS dissing Hogan would be different than your ass kissing of Hogan in what way?

[Guest mastermind]

Reading the first post I have come to this conclusion. IF this is true, Austin has reason to think he can get screwed. I mean seriously. Jericho is getting blamed for the lack of heat he had from January 7-WrestleMania? I'm in agreement with those who say Jericho was over as a heel, but I think he was not over as a true heel champ (Ric Flair or HBK around Montreal screwjob*notice I didn't say heel Triple H because I think those two had more genuine heel emotion in fans) should have been for beating Rock and Austin on the same night to win the first undisputed title(which I always stated should have been Austin).

 

Believe it or not guys it's the image that Jericho has of being smaller than the top guys like Austin and Rock and Triple H. A lot of casual fans think the guy is really intercontinental champion material and nothing more. This still doesn't excuse the booking of Jericho as champion. The night after he won the title on RAW the wwf did do a booking botch as someone said by having Austin possibly winning, but went back in the cage to give Jericho punishment. What does that say about Jericho. He won because Austin made a mistake. Austin was seen as the real champion. Jericho's champion credibility is getting chinks in the armour right away.

 

He was getting heat with RVD I'll admit. You see with the gimmick that Jericho was getting a swelled head the wwf should have done a power play where Jericho puts down RVD as a challenger and wants to face Rock. Something of a heel move that Triple H got as heel champion who screwed people around because he was the champ. Jericho didn't have that. I actually think Jericho's promo with Rock prior to the Rumble was solid and going somewhere. Jericho was doing good, not great at this point.

 

However, something happened when the first SmackDown aired after Royal Rumble. Jericho was pushed down for the nWo angle and probably rightfully so since it has casual fan appeal. The wwf was on the right track when Triple H came on RAW and asked Jericho if he could make it to WrestleMania. Jericho's motivation should have been a fighting champion to prove he should be main eventing and defending the title. What happens though? He has matches with midcarders like Edge and Rikishi with some matches being non-title. That is where Jericho became a joke and his heat died. Even the beer thrashing of Austin came off good, but Jericho was punked on SmackDown when he couldn't peep a word to Austin in the locker room. Jericho was finished right there as not being the real champion to the fans. I admit he was NOT over at this time for being a top heel with the belt.

 

Then we got the nWo coming in to poison and destroy the wwf and they don't attack the wwf champion. The CHAMPION of the wwf should be a person on the nWo's target list. Hogan who could have used the storyline of being the real champion and owner of the big gold belt. I know that it would be heel vs. heel, but the wwf could have inserted Triple H as the face who protected the wwf championship because he was afraid of the championship's future. He wouldn't actually be saving Jericho, but his title shot and the title for WrestleMania. Now this ties into the nWo angle and what could have made it more hot. The wwf wrestlers bonding together to save the company from the poison where Rock and Austin could have come to the aid of the championship as well. However Rock and Austin are shown as the two top guys in the business even without the belt which has more meaning to the wwf than the world champion. The two guys Jericho beat for the belt. His heel turn and wins over Rock and Austin were null and void at this point.

 

Instead Triple H was also a big joke with the stupid wedding crap. I say Trips isn't over now, but I think stupid soap opera crap like this is a reason. Triple H AND Jericho were made to look stupid from January 7-WrestleMania. That's why Triple H isn't as over as he should be. Both Jericho and Triple H weren't built up properly. Stephanie just sucked what little heat Jericho had. The reason why Jericho and Triple H aren't as over as they should be is that STEPHANIE was booked to be the star. I really can't believe the wwf people can't see that. It's the WRITER'S fault for how things went. Not the wrestlers in this instance. I find it really funny that the wwf could come up with stronger storylines in 1997 when they had a much weaker roster and now have the strongest roster in their history and are not as dramatic with the storylines.

[Guest The Masked Yodeler]

During both Jericho and Angle's heel runs with the WWF Title they were made to look like incompetent boobs.  That's why they weren't as over as they should have been.

 

Contrast that to The Rock and HHH's heel runs with the WWF Title.  They may have won some matches via screwjob, but they were still made to look like they were credible champions.

 

Angle and Jericho not only won all their matches by screwjob, but weren't made to look like credible champions.  Instead they were made to look like jobbers who just lucked upon the WWF Title.  And looking like a jobber does wonders for ones credibility.

 

There's a reason The Honky Tonk man had a run with the IC title, and not the WWF Title.

[Guest]

I'm still confused where this whole "Jericho has always been mega-over" theory comes from. I'm not going to deny that Jericho was over as a heel, but he was not drawing the type of heat that he should have been. There were times he could barely go toe to toe with William Regal for goodness sakes let alone Angle.

 

I remember watching Royal Rumble and the SD before that and Jericho got pretty good heat for his bitch-fest promo against the Rock and at RR during the match. I was like, "Wow, maybe this guy has finally gotten over." But that heat didn't stick. At house shows Billy and Chuck were almost on par with Jericho, if you don't believe me, go read the pre WM House Show reports at Meltzer's site.

 

That was the problem with Jericho. He was mega-over at times, but for the most part, his heat was weak to be such a historic champion. And basically he only drew cheap heat out of his promos. Anyone can do the "I'm a living legend" schtick and get over. In my opinion, Jericho didn't get his heat sucked away by  Steph, it was actually bolstered. This was the first time I saw Jericho heavily booed on one show and it actually carried over to the next.

 

The WM match had no heat because it was poorly built up and Hogan/Rock preceeded it. The fans had come for what they wanted to see. They were all tired out. So Jericho/HHH had to suffer.

 

So, in some aspects, I think the WWF was right about Jericho. He did fail to draw heat on his own. Even Booker T. could draw good heel heat and he's made to look like an ass every show. What's Jericho's excuse?

 

And a couple of extra points.....

 

Why are some complaining about rewriting history when it seems they've done it as well. Not so long ago, there would be debates about whether Jericho was over or not. Well, some people would say, he'll be more over once he beats HHH, then he'll have the ME heat and credibility that he needs. Now all of a sudden he's always been over? Give me a break.

 

Secondly, someone made a foolish defense for Jericho's lack of heat by saying that crowd reaction's don't transfer over to TV that well. Well, who's to say that HHH's pops aren't making it over on TV that well? Or maybe it's just a lakcluster defense to throw us off the subject. I never had any problem hearing Regal's heat, Angle's or the NWO's heat. What kind of special heat was Jericho getting? Bossman heat?

[Guest The Masked Yodeler]

Jericho didn't get heat because he was booked like a bitch.

 

He was in the midcard forever and finally gets a main event feud with the Rock.  He didn't win that clean, and the suddenly he's the WWF Champ?  Joe Mark was like "What's this chump doing with the WWF title?" and treated him accordingly.  Even so, he got some heel heat and was doing okay until his feud with RVD was killed.  After that he was made to look like a jobber at every turn, and never got the credibility that even heels need to be a convincing WWF Champion.

[Guest humongous2002]

A few weeks before Mania I  predicted that Y2J was going to loose the titles to HGH and he'll be back struggling in midcard limbo while the NWOld will be main eventing all the shows. Well I'm sad that my predictions came true. F... HHH!!!!!

[Guest razazteca]

Jericho was over when he 1st showed up, he had a nice titantron video with a countdown

 

Jericho vs Shamrock promos with Mr. Hughes as Gotch Gracie was one of the funniest promos ever

 

Jericho vs Beniot vs Angle made Jericho IC material

 

Jericho vs HHH phatom title shot made him gave him the Rub as a possible champ

 

Jericho as Undisputed Champ killed everything with storylines going in 398343 different directions, changing character nearly every show.

[Guest the pinjockey]

The real reason Jericho's heat wasn't up to par with a champion(though still good until Steph) is the fact that he never really did anything to make people boo him.  Let's see he cheats to win the crowd doesn't care it is not like hitting people with objects is taboo now, while Kurt Angle sucks up to Vince McMahon (which equals heat) Chris Jericho plays incompetant errand boy for Steph (equals pity).  And the biggest point I think is that he never had a real heel turn.  Wow he got a big head once he became the champion I mean his ego was right on par with the Rock's character and the crowd loves him so who cares.  A defining heel turn moment should not consist of going out to the ring and saying screw the fans.  Lets look at recent heel turns:

 

Rock turned at SS via Montreal screwjob w/ mcmahon

HHH turned at WM to help Shane win then got the megapush to retire foley

Austin turns at WM via McMahon then they pair up

Austin then turns on the WWF

Angle then turns on the WWF

Christian even got to jump someone to turn heel (the turn was great the execution was a joke)

 

Jericho wins title at Vengeance thanks to Booker T who interferes because he hates Austin so Jericho is afterthought, wins cleanly 0 times in next three months.  Usually people interfere not associated with him so he wins by fluke not by cheating (if it was his group hepling him it is cheating but whenever you are wrestling wrestler X and Wrestler Y who is fueding with him interferes it is not cheating it is just saying have your belt back).  Then going into the biggest match of his life he accepts the role of errand boy to have access to Steph's grand knowledge of Triple H despite the fact they have already fueded and he just got back from an 8 month injury so any moron realizes they can scout how to beat HHH but Jericho needs to get Steph to realize attack the leg.  Nothing at all in there screams out "Boo me".  All the while maybe getting the in-ring mic time of edge.

[Guest mastermind]

Now I think Masked Yodeller said it best. He suddenly became undisputed champion and people were like what the hell. I mean I can't remember exactly, but didn't Austin thrash him on television during a match on RAW before Vengence? Jericho was looking like a bitch before he won the title. I agree with the poster who said Jericho was NEVER mega-over. Best buy's argument is pretty sound.

[Guest mastermind]

The point about Jericho not really having that defining heel turn is a point, but it still doesn't take away the obvious outcome of the "main event" of WrestleMania. I think it was the most obvious title match since Rock/Austin at WM 15. Even then Rock losing was predictable, but fans were sure excited about an electric match. If the outcome is predictable, but the fans want to see it there really isn't that much of a problem(Austin/HBK at WM 14). The fans didn't expect an electric match and the outcome was predictable. I won't say the fans didn't want to see Trips with the belt though as I don't know.

 

I mean look at WM 16. The outcome could have been either Rock or Foley to the majority of fans and that's what they wanted. Trips was a solid champ already beating Foley in the two previous ppv shows. HHH winning was a shock, but wasn't so much out of the question as he was credible.

 

WM 17 had Rock and Austin. No one can tell me every one picked Austin to win or turn heel because of Rock leaving to do a movie. The outcome was a bit harder for the majority of fans and the heel turn was something different. Now compare that with this year's main event and you can see why it was flat regardless of the storylines leading to the event. I still say the wwf should have shown Triple H getting pinned by Jericho on RAW and showing Triple H never really beat the guy fair and square. Use that for motivation for Triple H to beat Jericho. Create some kind of doubt for crying out loud.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Triple H is not be as over as he should be, being the champ, but a lot of you people should suck it up and admit that Jericho was even less over as a heel. Blame the booking all you want, the WWF presented Chris Jericho with an opprotunity. They feuded him with their biggest star and had him go over their two biggest stars in one night.>>>

 

 

Neither was close to clean and the WWF REGULARLY seldom mentioned his name on RAW.

 

The World Champ wouldn't get mentioned on RAW until the last half hour---and that went on for MONTHS.

 

 

<<<Yet, many of you will not admit that Jericho is to blame for not being a credible champion. Kurt Angle was given the same exact push in 2000-2001 and he remains over to this day.>>>

 

 

Angle wasn't over as Champ during his 1st reign, sorry to tell you.

 

 

<<<Chris Jericho as a heel champ, as talented as he is, doesn't sell tickets. He's better off as a babyface. When he was a face, the fans were into him and he was credible. Putting him with Stephanie was a decent idea on paper, seeing as how stephanie is one of the most hated individuals in the WWF, but it didn't work.>>>

 

 

Not having Austin and HHH behave as if beating Jericho was no big deal might have helped. Not pushing Jericho beneath Austin, HHH, and the nWo might have helped. Not having JR claim that Jericho ws friggin' afraid of MAVEN might have helped.

 

 

<<<Chris Jericho, like it or not, wasn't ready to headline Wrestlemania. >>>

 

 

He was more ready than HHH was.

                 -=Mike