Matt Hardy in line for Push

[Guest Austin3164life]

Let's say Benoit wins the first U.S. Title. Despite the number of times he's jobbed out, casual marks have very short memories, and remember the big matches that he won or participated in valiantly (vs. Angle at Unforgiven and RR). If Matt Hardy were to enter a feud with Benoit over the summer, you don't think that qualifies as a push? Sure, most of us remember the track record of wins and losses, but in marks' eyes it means less to nothing. The US Title is being brought back in the same light as the IC Title on Raw (because the IC Title seems over again). What Christian is getting right now is not a push (feuding with Booker T, a very popular worker, who hasn't won many matches)?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

How is it my fault that their titles are meaningless? Each 'brand' has 4 titles. The Average amount of matches on a PPV is 8. That means half of the matches on PPVs are title matches, and on merged PPVs _every_ match is a title match - how can a title gain value with they are a dime a dozen?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

When I was a "mark" I kept track of wins and losses, not with a pen and pad, but I knew who was winning a lot and who was losing a lot. To say winning and losing is meaningless is to basically reject the competitive aspects of wrestling and there in-turn to reject the notion of the title.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Christian is not getting a push. After he loses the title do you think he will be better off than before he won it? No. Why? Because (a) he won the title by cheating, (b) he has kept the title by cheating, and (c ) he will lose the title clean as a whistle. And since the title holder wasn't booked strong the title itself is not strong.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

Ah, but by that theory...what about if Booker T is booked well with the title? He wins matches cleanly and looks kinda strong with the title? What then?

[Guest Austin3164life]

I'm speaking generally though. Back when we were marks years ago, things were different. Today, after the entire "Attitude" era, people view wrestling as a joke (not saying they never did, but now moreso than ever). If you ask a casual fan if Chris Benoit is one of the best wrestlers (and what his track record is), they'll say he's great in the ring, and that's it. All I'm saying is that Matt going for the new U.S. Title, which will be the #2 belt on SD, along with Benoit/Eddy/Rhyno/Cena/TA is a good thing. They can build a good division around those guys. At first, I also though it was basically meaningless, but building a division is more gradual, and with names like those, Matt wining that title and feuding with those other workers is somewhat of a push, at the very least.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

It's easier to kill a title's value than to build it. What they need to do is to have a strong champion and strong, ESTABLISHED, competition. Not only do they need to have a championship feud, but they need to have a #1 contender feud, and a bunch of guys looking and battling it out to be in the #1 contenders spot. I don't see this happening.

 

** And this goes back to the issue of too many titles. To have not only a feud for the title but a feud for #1 contendership, and then another feud to get to be #1 contender... that's 3 matches. 3 matches per title and 4 titles means 12 matches. That's way too many.

[Guest Austin3164life]

It's easier to kill a title's value than to build it. What they need to do is to have a strong champion and strong, ESTABLISHED, competition. Not only do they need to have a championship feud, but they need to have a #1 contender feud, and a bunch of guys looking and battling it out to be in the #1 contenders spot. I don't see this happening.

 

** And this goes back to the issue of too many titles. To have not only a feud for the title but a feud for #1 contendership, and then another feud to get to be #1 contender... that's 3 matches. 3 matches per title and 4 titles means 12 matches. That's way too many.

If they have a tournament leading up to Vengeance with Benoit/Matt/Rhyno/Cena/Eddy/and TA, this can help establish some preludes to future feuds. Let's say Benoit wins the tourney in the finals over Rhyno. They could feud for the summer over the U.S. Title. Meanwhile, Matt can feud with a face Eddy for that #1 contender's spot (also he can call himself Version 2). At the same time, Cena/Rhyno/Team Angle can have that US division feud to see who gets a shot at the U.S. Title. Most of these guys have some kind of history together. Adding a very over Matt would be a good thing for him and for the fans. Thus, it would be considered a push, if they do put some focus into the U.S. division.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

You're assuming that the WWE is stable enough to maintain the division. I have no idea what leads you to believe that's even close to being true.

[Guest Austin3164life]

The WWE can build this division, but it requires effort. They have the tools, but are too lazy to use them. Sooner or later, they have to use them.

[Guest the pinjockey]

They also need to get an actual rivalry developed around the secondary belts. The IC belt meant something to me when Jericho and Benoit were killing themselves over it. But instead of booking it like that they either put it on someone and let them wrestler the current midcard push of the month or they throw in too many title changes among too many people.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

They have already had two tournaments already this year - with each's winner being completely jobbed out 2 weeks later.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The IC title meant nothing to me after they introduced the Euro Title and changed it's look. Chyna winning it stopped any chance at that title having value.

[Guest Austin3164life]

They can still make the US Division over as the #2 division on Smackdown. Indications show that they probably will, considering they are bringing back the title, and are pushing Matt Hardy (not to mention feuding Benoit and Rhyno). Sure, the IC meant little to me, because I'm cognizant of its history, and history means a lot to me (as it does to you and most of us), but marks generally don't care about it. They can build a strong US division if they want to. If they do or don't, who knows. If they do, and Matt gets the title after a lengthy feud with the likes of the guys that I named, he'll be thought of higher than when he was CW Champion, because he's fighting "middleweights" (upper-carders), so to speak.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I'm sorry, but how do marks "not care" about history? I don't get this. History is History. To just shrug it off because "marks generally don't care about it" is just silly. History is important in *everything*. History is what those marks talk about when they talk about the ladder match at WM 10, or when they talk about the hell in a cell - marks don't care about history? Bullshit. Marks know what they watch, they actually do have a memory, and if what they watched in the past is being misrepresented in the present then they will be insulted by it.

 

How was the US title introduced? COME ON, that should be a clear fucking indication on how they are going to represent it when they make it part of another "bigger" angle. Matt is a heel. He the typical WWE cheating heel that doesn't present any sort of a threat to anyone above jobber status. That won't change. Not with a title around his waist, not with wins over Benoit or Rhyno or Guerrero. If he cheats to win them, then he doesn't get anything from that.

[Guest Austin3164life]

Marks acnknowledge the significant history. If Matt gets a win over Benoit (ex.) after a long feud for the U.S. Title (which is introduced after a tournament most likely, consisting of other over upper-carders), people will see Matt as important, and won't care if he jobbed to (insert jobber here) back in January. Marks acknowledge that Matt won at Wrestlemania over a popular cruiserweight in Mysterio, and marks acknowledge the fact that he lost two weeks ago at Smackdown. All Matt needs to do is cut a promo calling himself Version 2, and he's going after the U.S. Title. He's over enough to make fans think this is important. After all, when Cena was going after the WWE Title, people noticed and thought he was legit, going over Benoit, Eddy, and (with cheating) Undertaker. The problem, which you said earlier, is bad booking and Cena was pushed back to the midcard. I realize this and I think it's a problem, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen with the U.S. Division. But it seems like they want to establish the division with Benoit/Rhyno feuding over it perhaps. I think it would equal a push. If they book it horribly, than it won't.

[Guest the pinjockey]

How was the US title introduced? COME ON, that should be a clear fucking indication on how they are going to represent it when they make it part of another "bigger" angle.

How can you argue that Sable casually mentioning the title to Steph was not a good build?

 

I have no faith going in because it is just a lazy booking decision to bring back the title. It was awfully convenient that before each of the split PPVs they bring back the secondary belts. It is just lazy because now it is one less match for each show that they have to think about. Just a generic heel champ with face chasing or face champ with heel dickishness each PPV.

 

When right from the get go the concept of the secondary belt was to create less thinking for the booking committee it shows it will become the midcarder of the month belt and not a real competitive belt.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

No one bought Cena as a main eventer. Those wins over Benoit and Rhyno and Rikishi where nullified when he got his ass beat by Taker, and he still had his gimmick. Everyone knew Brock would win. The point of a challenger is to challenge - when there is no challenge then there is no point and it is seen as filler. Fans may not remember detailed specifics, but the grasp of "matt hardy is weak" as defined by a)him cheating in matches and b)him getting his ass kicked by bigger opponents in history does catch up to him. Every match means something.

 

How is Rhyno and Benoit feuding for a title a push? They are world title rejects, they lost to freaking Cena! Benoit is a LOSER. That's how they are developing him. Rhyno is a goof cause he keeps causing Benoit to lose. Their feud has failed before it has even begun. Besides, it's a "personal feud" not one for a belt, thus making the belts a mere prop, the physical manefestation of these two mens greivances with each other - rather than the representation of being "the best". Basically, they are Kurt Angles gold medals in his feuds with Austin and Benoit. Used to be only thrown off bridges and put down pants.

[Guest Austin3164life]

Hmm, thinking about it, you sound more and more right. I just tend to think there is a chance, but who knows for sure. This has been a good thread so far.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Y'know what would have really made that Belt seem special?

 

*Stephanie is in the middle of the ring*

 

Steph: Today is a very special occasion. With the depth of talent and competition that Smackdown has, I - as well as my father and my mother and the board of directors have felt it necessary to make sure all this talent, all these stars, have a chance to shine. Today marks the announcement of a new division and a new title.

 

*Two well-dressed men walk down carrying a glass case with the US title in it, with 4 security guards accompanying*

 

Steph: Now, to introduce the competitors in the US title tournament is Howard Finkle

 

*Howard announces the wrestlers (pref. 12 - 4 wrestlers will get a bi) - they come down individually - no music - and either in suits or track suits. Howard announces 2 or 3 matches that will take place next week (or that night), with more to be named in the following show.*

 

*the next week, the list is completed - Tazz and Cole run down the list, make analysis, pick favourites, interview participants, etc. As well as document the history of the US title.*

 

It's just little things like Howard Finkle announcing the participants and them coming down with _no_ music, and lining up in the ring, and the glass case for the title, etc. that give it those final touches, that make it professionally done. When there is effort put into developing a title and a division then the fans are more likely to respond and take that division seriously.

[Guest Austin3164life]

Y'know what would have really made that Belt seem special?

 

*Stephanie is in the middle of the ring*

 

Steph: Today is a very special occasion. With the depth of talent and competition that Smackdown has, I - as well as my father and my mother and the board of directors have felt it necessary to make sure all this talent, all these stars, have a chance to shine. Today marks the announcement of a new division and a new title.

 

*Two well-dressed men walk down carrying a glass case with the US title in it, with 4 security guards accompanying*

 

Steph: Now, to introduce the competitors in the US title tournament is Howard Finkle

 

*Howard announces the wrestlers (pref. 12 - 4 wrestlers will get a bi) - they come down individually - no music - and either in suits or track suits. Howard announces 2 or 3 matches that will take place next week (or that night), with more to be named in the following show.*

 

*the next week, the list is completed - Tazz and Cole run down the list, make analysis, pick favourites, interview participants, etc. As well as document the history of the US title.*

 

It's just little things like Howard Finkle announcing the participants and them coming down with _no_ music, and lining up in the ring, and the glass case for the title, etc. that give it those final touches, that make it professionally done. When there is effort put into developing a title and a division then the fans are more likely to respond and take that division seriously.

That's an awesome idea. I had the same one and I put it in fantasy booking. But it's gotten a bad intro, will probably be fed to A-Train and Rikishi before the actual good talent. I see your point, and I think I agree. Thanks.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The problem I have with the lottery is that it almost puts it to chance, rather than being specific. Everything should be tight. Right up to knowing who the #5 guy is in the division. But I am a bit of a stickler to organization - if you don't put the effort in to getting the fans to care, why should the fans put in the effort to care?

 

... Ok, it's late.. so please excuse the spelling and grammar mistakes that I have made and might make in this thread..

[Guest Austin3164life]

At least I booked good matches. But I see your point. The little things help keep the big picture hanging.

[Guest the pinjockey]

I don't even think they need to get into the specifics of who is #5 in the division and such. But they need to make an effort to show that people have it in the back of their mind that they are in the title hunt.

 

Say for example the Matt Hardy faces Rhyno for some reason. Say Matt wins the announcers should point out that he would likely be looking to go after the US title now or say he needs to go after Cena to be in position to go after the US belt. They don't need a set ranking type deal, but they need reasons. Not "Wow Kevin Nash was pinned last night in the 6 man tag, he is in title contention now because he interupted a HHH match."

 

Of course this puts responsability to the announcers as well which will leave you unfulfilled.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

The US title is not a push. It's only value is to attract people's eyes towards your waist/shoulder.

So you subscribe to the HHH view then that the only belt worth having in a fed is the one big belt?

[Adam 0]

The IC Title was meaningless when you had the US, Euro and Hardcore Titles up for grabs as well. It was all fools gold.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Y'know what would have really made that Belt seem special?

Nope, but I bet I can make a RavishingRickRudo post with your trademarked brand of bitching about it.

 

*Stephanie is in the middle of the ring*

 

RRR SEZ: No more Stephanie on my TV! Why in the hell doesn't McMahon realize we don't want to see his family anymore?!

 

have felt it necessary to make sure all this talent, all these stars, have a chance to shine.

 

RRR SEZ: That's what they always tell you. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

*the next week, the list is completed - Tazz and Cole run down the list, make analysis, pick favourites, interview participants, etc.  As well as document the history of the US title.*

 

RRR SEZ: Get to the wrestling already! This has too many promos. We need to organize some kind of movement so they can realize we want MORE WRESTLING LESS TALK! Nobody ever got over by talking!

 

It's just little things like Howard Finkle announcing the participants and them coming down with _no_ music, and lining up in the ring, and the glass case for the title, etc.  that give it those final touches, that make it professionally done.

 

It does make it seem incredibly classy, but incredibly classy just doesn't mix with the irreverant piss & vinegar style of programming (I'm sure Vince would call it "smash mouth" or "fresh and in your face" but that means nothing to me.) Why would a guy who talks trash and beats the hell out of people (supposedly) on a weekly basis for a living be wearing a tux?

 

It's just a bit too pompous for a program where you can find a Samoan with the World's Largest Ass, a guy who calls himself "The Spankster," and two guys protraying sleazy Latino stereotypes.

[Adam 0]

Face it, Wrestling is more entertainment than ever now, so you can't stop the talking.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Somewhere in there you're trying to make a point JOTW, but I'm just not seeing it. I didn't say that the WWE would do this, nor did I make this an all-inclusive suggestion on how to fix the WWE's problems. I *do* want less talking and more wrestling, I don't want the McMahons on TV, but in regards to _introducing_ a belt in the current Smackdown world, that, IMO, is the best way to do it. But don't let that get in the way of whatever you were setting to accomplish there.

 

It brings the belt 'above' the wrestlers. When there is an effort being put in to make a belt seem special, glass box and all, then the fan's will take notice and associate the two together. When you see guys who normally don't "dress up" dressing up for this belt, to be in this tournament, you're going to say "gee, maybe this does mean something".

 

I don't "believe" in HHH's 'view', I don't think I said that anywhere. I just stated what is the reality created by that 'view'. The belts *are* meaningless. I gave clear examples of how of how the situation is.

 

JOTW SEZ: I'm not very good at keeping track of all the posts. So many words... I hate it when that RRR flames everybody, I'd never do that.