Those wacky palestinians are at it again!

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

While driving home from work today I heard on the radio that a suicide bomber made an appearance at some hotel in Israel. Apparently, there's some Passover thing that Jews celebrate and a bunch of them were all decked out in holiday garb.

 

Anyway, before this gets into a international policy war between MikeSC and everyone else (jk), I'd like to point out two things:

 

1) The genius telling the story at CBS News Radio said that among the dead were "Men, women and children." Uh-huh.

 

2) Weren't we, the U.S., supposedly a bunch of insensitive meanies for wanting to bomb Afghanistan during Ramadan? I wonder if other Mideast countries are going to get their panties in a bunch over the insensitive nature of Hamas setting off people-bombs during a Jewish holiday period.

 

That's all. On to my porn sites.

[Guest Some Guy]

The answer to question #2 to is no and neither will the American left.  Can you say double standard? I can.

 

After we take out Saddam, we should let the Israelis and Palestinians fight it out to finish this whole mess.  It has gone on way to long and this terrorism, from both sides needs to stop.  The only problem is Israel would run through Palestine like a hot knife through butter and the rest of the Mid-East would get involved and then we would.  Israel's main problem with winning wars is that there aren't enough of them to hold the territory the conquer.  We (America) basically told every one to BUTT out of our business during the Civil War and we should but out of Israel's and the Palestinian's at least until Israel gets ganged up on by Irag, Iran, Syria, Jordan, etc...

[Guest gthureson]

You'd almost think the Palestinians weren't serious about wanting peace.

 

Or that Arafat's word means nothing.

 

Scary thing, Israel would likely beat all of them.   They've done it three times in the past.   But then again, you tend to fight harder when your survival is at stake.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<While driving home from work today I heard on the radio that a suicide bomber made an appearance at some hotel in Israel. Apparently, there's some Passover thing that Jews celebrate and a bunch of them were all decked out in holiday garb.>>>

 

 

Yup.

 

Heck, if you want a really touching side of the story, Israeli police caught some Palestinians trying to use an AMBULANCE to serve as a car bomb.

 

An AMBULANCE.

 

Yeah, the Israelis are the bad guys.

 

 

<<<Anyway, before this gets into a international policy war between MikeSC and everyone else (jk), I'd like to point out two things:

 

1) The genius telling the story at CBS News Radio said that among the dead were "Men, women and children." Uh-huh.>>>

 

 

Palestinians do not care who they kill. Thus, they are terrorists.

 

 

<<<2) Weren't we, the U.S., supposedly a bunch of insensitive meanies for wanting to bomb Afghanistan during Ramadan? I wonder if other Mideast countries are going to get their panties in a bunch over the insensitive nature of Hamas setting off people-bombs during a Jewish holiday period.>>>

 

 

Heck, these countries attacked one another and Israel during Muslim holidays fairly routinely.

                          -=Mike

 

...Whose simplistic world view seems more and more accurate.

[Guest Kingpk]

I'm really starting to lose any respect and patience I had for the Palestinians.  To get support of the international community, the last thing you want to do is send cowards to murder innocent civilians in cold blood.

 

Hamas needs to be destroyed.  They are a low-level al Queda.

[Guest Some Guy]

The only reason that people think Hamas is "low-level" al Queda is because they don't hit outside of Israel.  Ask an Israeli if he think they are "low-level".  I don't by any means intend this as an attack on you BTW.

 

Hamas has been responsible for more deaths than al Queda and they have been killing longer and more often.  They need to be stopped and eradicated, just like al Queda.

 

BTW Mike I don't think your world view, at least on this issue is "simplistic", you're ussually right on point about it.

[Guest Kingpk]

The only reason that people think Hamas is "low-level" al Queda is because they don't hit outside of Israel.  Ask an Israeli if he think they are "low-level".  I don't by any means intend this as an attack on you BTW.

Well, I meant "low-level" because while al Queda is more of an international organization, Hamas, as far as I know, operates mainly out of Israel and attacks only Israeli targets.

 

Just clarifying my post.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

I'm in no way excusing this sick and terrible crime, but at the same time, how come you none of you get all up in arms when innocent Palestinians are killed (and let's please remember that not all Palestinians are terrorists) by Israeli retaliation....

 

Just wondering.....

[Guest Some Guy]

I'm in no way excusing this sick and terrible crime, but at the same time, how come you none of you get all up in arms when innocent Palestinians are killed (and let's please remember that not all Palestinians are terrorists) by Israeli retaliation....

 

1) I never said that all Palestinians were terrorists and don't recall seeing anyone who has replied to this post say that.

 

2) There aren't nearly as many Israeli terrorist attacks on Palestians.  Palestine is the aggressor in this war and Israel is retaliating.  I heard about an Israeli soldier kicking in the door to a Palestian's home in pursuit of a terrorist and shooting a women in his way and then refusing to allow her children to get her medical help, at first I thought it was alful until I heard that she attacked him first.  BTW this happened in Israeli controlled "occupied" territory, so they had a right to enter and attempt to apprehend suspected terrorists.

[Guest DrTom]

"how come you none of you get all up in arms when innocent Palestinians are killed (and let's please remember that not all Palestinians are terrorists) by Israeli retaliation..."

 

Casualties of war, Chris, casualties of war.  No one enjoys seeing innocent people die, but the Israelis have a right to retaliate and defend themselves against terrorist attacks.  They've lost a lot of innocent people to Palestinian terrorism over the years, so your sympathy sounds misplaced.

[Guest Vyce]

You'd almost think the Palestinians weren't serious about wanting peace.

 

Or that Arafat's word means nothing.

 

ALMOST think???

 

It's like I said in another thread in this forum - the Palestinians will not be happy until every Jew in Israel is dead.  It's not about wanting peace.  It's not about wanting land.  It's all about anti-Semitism, and don't believe otherwise.

 

I'm in no way excusing this sick and terrible crime, but at the same time, how come you none of you get all up in arms when innocent Palestinians are killed (and let's please remember that not all Palestinians are terrorists) by Israeli retaliation....

 

The answer lies within your own post.  The Israelis are NOT the aggressors here, no matter how many times the Palestinians, the Arab nations, or hell, certain elements of the liberal left, try to make them to be such.  The Israelis merely react to Palestinian terrorism.  Unfortunately, as with all wars, innocents get killed.  It doesn't help that the terrorists usually hide AMONGST the civilians, thereby increasing the possibility of innocent casualties.

 

The difference is, when Palestinian civilians get killed, it's largely accidental, the result of retaliatory Israeli actions.  The Palestinians ACTIVELY seek out civilian targets like the cowards they are.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

The Palestinians deserve to be demonized for stepping up the suicide bombings in response to the peace talks.  No excuse for that, and it further illustrates either how little power Arafat has over Hamas or how little desire he has to exercise it.  Arafat sucks.

 

However, again, passing off Israeli terrorism as "casualties of war" doesn't work for me.  If Israel attacked a military target and two kids happened to be over there, fine.  However, when Israeli tanks decide to occupy Palestinian civilian territory in response to a suicide bombing, and thirty or forty Palestinians, mostly civilians, get killed by Israeli tanks, I say that's just as bad as this.  I don't see how anyone can support any of Israel's recent punitive territory occupations.  They serve no military purpose, only civilians suffer, it's just eye for an eye terrorist justice, and is every bit as bad as a suicide bombing.  Obviously any thought that retaliation would guilt trip Hamas into stopping the suicide bombings is wrong, so now Israel needs to stop attacking civilians and focus all it's energy on getting rid of Hamas.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Fungus, you hit it right on the nose there.  Terrorism is just a fancy label used to get people to blindly support "the right cause".  Violence is violence.  Innocent people dying in Israel is no more tragic than innocent people dying in Palestine.  This war business doesn't benefit anybody but the rich (and this goes to all us spoiled Americans who are too comfortable for our own good), and the suffering of everyone in the world has a responibility and a cause that goes back to us.  If you think that the actions of the U.S and Israeli governments. whom some of you never question or barely even acknowledge, have never been of a terrorist nature by the common definition, then you are simply too naive and you're part of the problem.....

 

You don't any allegiance to anyone but yourself.  Don't let anyone ever tell you what to do...

 

Now let's see who responds like a six-year old and who doesn't......

[Guest TheMikeSC]

The only reason that people think Hamas is "low-level" al Queda is because they don't hit outside of Israel.  Ask an Israeli if he think they are "low-level".  I don't by any means intend this as an attack on you BTW.>>>

 

 

I don't know. Hasn't Hamas taken credit for terrorist acts outside of Israel? I honestly don't know this.

 

 

<<<Hamas has been responsible for more deaths than al Queda and they have been killing longer and more often.  They need to be stopped and eradicated, just like al Queda.>>>

 

 

I'm just amazed at how many people have been suckered by Arafat time and time again. The Muslim countries have to realize how much Hamas has hurt them this time as popular sentiment was turning against Israel as of late.

 

 

<<<BTW Mike I don't think your world view, at least on this issue is "simplistic", you're ussually right on point about it. >>>

 

 

Thanks, but I'm beating Hash and Frank Zappa Mask to the punch here. :-)

                 -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I'm in no way excusing this sick and terrible crime, but at the same time, how come you none of you get all up in arms when innocent Palestinians are killed (and let's please remember that not all Palestinians are terrorists) by Israeli retaliation....

 

Just wondering..... >>>

 

 

Because the Palestinian terrorists---the TARGETS of Israeli retaliation---are hidden amongst the population. Israel CAN'T avoid civilians since Hamas et al USE civilians to protect them.

 

And, who are the terrorists from Palestine targeting? You can't claim ANY governmental OR militarty target in this most recent attack. It was done SOLELY to kill civilians. Israel would kill ONLY Hamas members if Hamas members didn't hide amongst the innocents.

 

And Israel has shown remarkable restraint as of late in not unleashing the dogs of hell upon them.

                              -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<The Palestinians deserve to be demonized for stepping up the suicide bombings in response to the peace talks.  No excuse for that, and it further illustrates either how little power Arafat has over Hamas or how little desire he has to exercise it.  Arafat sucks.

 

However, again, passing off Israeli terrorism as "casualties of war" doesn't work for me.  If Israel attacked a military target and two kids happened to be over there, fine.  However, when Israeli tanks decide to occupy Palestinian civilian territory in response to a suicide bombing, and thirty or forty Palestinians, mostly civilians, get killed by Israeli tanks, I say that's just as bad as this.  I don't see how anyone can support any of Israel's recent punitive territory occupations.  They serve no military purpose, only civilians suffer, it's just eye for an eye terrorist justice, and is every bit as bad as a suicide bombing.>>>

 

 

Israel is targeting places where terrorists came from. Since the terrorists HIDE amongst the civilians, then the civilians become sad, but necessary, collateral damage.

 

I place the death of the Palestinian civilians upon the heads of groups like Hamas.

 

 

<<<Obviously any thought that retaliation would guilt trip Hamas into stopping the suicide bombings is wrong, so now Israel needs to stop attacking civilians and focus all it's energy on getting rid of Hamas. >>>

 

 

When Hamas hides amongst civilians, ho does one accomplish that?

 

And, please note, Israel has suffered more than 30 deaths in the recent rash of attacks and done NOTHING in response. Nothing.

 

Anything they do from here on out is justified. Israel NOT fighting back hasn't exactly slowed the bombers.

                            -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Fungus, you hit it right on the nose there.  Terrorism is just a fancy label used to get people to blindly support "the right cause".  Violence is violence.  Innocent people dying in Israel is no more tragic than innocent people dying in Palestine.>>>

 

 

It's far more tragic. If Hamas wants to attack the military or government, well, they know where to find them.

 

They dont choose to do that. They attack innocent civilians---then run back home and hide amongst the innocents in Palestine, assuming that Israel won't get them because they are well-hidden.

 

To me, somebody who harbors a terrorist is no better than the terrorist himself.

 

 

<<<This war business doesn't benefit anybody but the rich (and this goes to all us spoiled Americans who are too comfortable for our own good), and the suffering of everyone in the world has a responibility and a cause that goes back to us.  If you think that the actions of the U.S and Israeli governments. whom some of you never question or barely even acknowledge, have never been of a terrorist nature by the common definition, then you are simply too naive and you're part of the problem.....>>>

 

Israel has done nothing all week.

 

Have the attacks slowed?

 

The U.S isn't involved whatsoever.

 

Have the attacks slowed?

 

The U.S has fought FOR Muslims far more often than Middle Eastern Muslim kingdoms have.

 

Have the attacks slowed?

 

 

<<<You don't any allegiance to anyone but yourself.  Don't let anyone ever tell you what to do...>>>

 

 

You owe allegiance to those who do good for you. If you show NO allegiance, people will quickly stop helping you.

 

I will support my country to the death. I will fight to the death for your right to say the factually inaccurate things you often say.

 

I'm nice like that. :-)

                   -=Mike

 

Now let's see who responds like a six-year old and who doesn't......

[Guest gthureson]

The tricky part comes in the next few weeks.   The Arab League is endorsing the Saudi peace plan.   The Americans want Israel to accept the Saudi peace plan.   Arafat is publicly saying that the Saudi plan is fine with him.

 

For those who haven't been paying attention, the Saudi plan is land for peace with the *entire* Arab League.   The stickling point is a split Jerusalem, something the Israelis have never been willing to do.

 

The Americans want this because they need Arab support if they are going to run an operation in Iraq.   Not for military support, they can kick Iraq's ass nine ways to Sunday without it.   More for the reason that with their support, they won't have to worry about truck bombs being run into barracks and all the other bullshit that might go on if they try it without it.

 

And this will put Israel in a tough position.   They need American aid to survive.  Their budget is so heavy on defense (mainly because of the crap that is in the news every day), that without American help, they can't maintain it.   But they also know that any peace with the Palestinians is meaningless.   If anybody has given in the last 10-15 years of negotiations, its the Israelis.   The fact that they traded *any* land in the first place was a huge move for them.   Now they will be pressured into accepting this plan even though they, themselves, know it means nothing.

 

Likely they have been holding off the past week because the Americans have been telling them to wait and see what comes out of the Saudi plan.   See if its for real or not.   If the Americans pick up the ball, and push for this deal to go through, then what do the Israelis do?

 

Accept it and cross their fingers?

Turn it down and swing support against them again?

 

I wouldn't blame them for spiking the deal right now.   Not until there is someone besides Arafat to deal with.   His word means nothing any more.   But I don't know if they will be able to do that.   They will have a lot of pressure on them to accept a deal that isn't worth the paper its printed on because American policy requires them to right now.

 

Call the Israeli army terrorists if you want.   But you know damn well that if Muslim suicide bombers were walking into Planet Hollywood and blowing themselves up on a regular basis, the US would be showing alot less restraint than Israel has.

[Guest gthureson]

You'd almost think the Palestinians weren't serious about wanting peace.

 

Or that Arafat's word means nothing.

 

ALMOST think???

I'll try and put something like /ironic sarcasm mode on for you next time.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"Call the Israeli army terrorists if you want.   But you know damn well that if Muslim suicide bombers were walking into Planet Hollywood and blowing themselves up on a regular basis, the US would be showing alot less restraint than Israel has. "

 

Excuse me? Muslim suicide bombers did a hell of a lot more to the US than they've ever done to Israel, and the US showed plenty of restraint in that situation.

 

The cynics talked about how the US would retaliate immediately. They didn't. They talked about how they would start dropping nukes. They didn't. They talked about how they would fail in Afghanistan like the Soviets. They didn't. Instead, the US waited, built up their military presence, got all the NATO allies on board, and got the job done faster than anyone expected. They showed a hell of a lot more restraint, efficiency, and plain old intelligence than the Israelis ever do. Do you think the US army would waste their time driving tanks into some gypsy village to blow up people in tents?

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<Fungus, you hit it right on the nose there.  Terrorism is just a fancy label used to get people to blindly support "the right cause".  Violence is violence.  Innocent people dying in Israel is no more tragic than innocent people dying in Palestine.

 

 

It's far more tragic. If Hamas wants to attack the military or government, well, they know where to find them.

 

They dont choose to do that. They attack innocent civilians---then run back home and hide amongst the innocents in Palestine, assuming that Israel won't get them because they are well-hidden.

 

To me, somebody who harbors a terrorist is no better than the terrorist himself.>>

 

-I see your point, but at the same time, when Israel goes looking for these Hamas members hiding amongst innocent Palestinians, and when innocent Palestinians get killed because of it, it's just as tragic as any innocent Israeli getting killed.  A innocent person is a innocent person.  Half of Hamas's evil comes from the fact that they get their own people killed because of their actions in a conflict that has no winner, and that has plenty of losers.  Instead of trying to weigh which slaughter of innocents is more tragic, realize that they are equally tragic, and equally unneccssary.

 

<<<This war business doesn't benefit anybody but the rich (and this goes to all us spoiled Americans who are too comfortable for our own good), and the suffering of everyone in the world has a responibility and a cause that goes back to us.  If you think that the actions of the U.S and Israeli governments. whom some of you never question or barely even acknowledge, have never been of a terrorist nature by the common definition, then you are simply too naive and you're part of the problem.....>>>

 

-Mike, you didn't really address what I said here, and I'm curious as to your thoughts....

 

<<<Israel has done nothing all week.

 

Have the attacks slowed?>>>

 

-True, but my original point was of a broader nature.  I was just wondering why people don't get up in arms when innocent Palestinians are killed in this conflict.  They are people too.

 

<<<The U.S isn't involved whatsoever.

 

Have the attacks slowed?>>>

 

-Isreal is backed with U.S funding and political support and supplied with weaponry from our military.  I would say we are involved.

 

<<<The U.S has fought FOR Muslims far more often than Middle Eastern Muslim kingdoms have.

 

Have the attacks slowed?>>>

 

-I'd be interested in some examples, because as I have said, I'm nowhere near as familiar as I should be with the history of the Arab-Isreali conflict or Middle Eastern history as a whole.

 

<<<I will support my country to the death. I will fight to the death for your right to say the factually inaccurate things you often say.

 

I'm nice like that. :-)>>>

 

-Mike, that's the best thing you have ever said in our many disagreements.  As long as we can live in a country where we can agree to disagree, and where people can respect and tolerate differing opinions, then we'll all be alright, and we may eventually figure out how to make things work.  That's what I love about America (damn, I'm starting to make myself cry....)

[Guest gthureson]

Excuse me? Muslim suicide bombers did a hell of a lot more to the US than they've ever done to Israel, and the US showed plenty of restraint in that situation.

 

They talked about how they would fail in Afghanistan like the Soviets. They didn't.

Are American citizens worried about going to Disneyland?  Do you look over your shoulder when you cross the street?  If you are taking a bus to Duluth, are you worried about getting peppered with machine gun fire?  No, you are not.

 

Was the WTC far more spectacular than anything that has taken place in Israel?  Yes.  Have more Israelis died in the last fifteen years than Americans, yes.

 

Muslim bombers have not turned the United States into an armed camp.   At least not yet.  

 

Oh, and for the record, the stated purpose of the Afghanistan mission was 'The capture or death of Osama Bin Laden.'   Guess what?  He is still alive.   Therefore...the mission either has to be considered incomplete, or a failure.  

 

The Soviets rolled into Kabul fairly damned quick too.   They spent the next ten years fighting jokers with Ak's in the mountains of Afghanistan.   Hrm...what was Operation Anaconda again?

 

Two weeks of 'intensive fighting', 14 confirmed dead.  Fourteen.   Thousands of pounds of precision bombing, special forces, artillery....14 confirmed dead.

 

Sounds kinda like what the Russians were doing in 1985.

[Guest Some Guy]

gthureson what we are doing in Afghanistan is different than what the Soviet Union did.  The reasons are very different as I think you know, but so is the methods.  The USSR din't make any attempt to my knoweldge to mimimize collateral damage, they didn't have any where near the quality of equipment that we have now (a lot of it hadn't been invented yet), and we've been fighting them for about 4 or 5 months. Give the Military a break, in 4 or 5 months we toppled a government, rounded up or killed thousands of terrorists in Afghanistan, and provided some aid to the people there, that's pretty damn good for only 4 or 5 months, especially when our country hasn't been in a war for ten years and as a result many of our troops are inexperienced in real combat.

 

<<<This war business doesn't benefit anybody but the rich (and this goes to all us spoiled Americans who are too comfortable for our own good), and the suffering of everyone in the world has a responibility and a cause that goes back to us.  If you think that the actions of the U.S and Israeli governments. whom some of you never question or barely even acknowledge, have never been of a terrorist nature by the common definition, then you are simply too naive and you're part of the problem.....>>>

 

1st off I don't think that we are "to comforable for our own good". I think we aren't comfortable enough, we still have looming threats off massive terrorist attacks on major cities, a mild economic recession, and a war going on.  When these things clear up then maybe we'll be to comfortable.

 

2nd everyone in the world who is suffering is not our fault, unless you feel that we should intervene in every squable that every country ever has or give all our money away.  The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is not our fault, it started in Biblical times and the only way to stop it other than letting them fight is if we have another Camp David Accord and pay them to stop like we paid the Israelis to stop destroying Egypt in the late 70's, something Israel was justified in doing as they were attacked.

 

3rd I have acknowedged the Israeli and American government as not being perfect, I questioned and disagreed with much of Clinton's foriegn policy and some of W. Bush's.  Israel is not innocent in this conflist, they should be in part of Germany and not in former Palestinian territory IMO.  The state was founded as a result militant Jews attacking the Brits with terrorism after they decided to let Palestine go.  However it has been over 50 years since Israel was formed and still no progress and lately Arafat is the biggest hinderence to peace, not Sharon.

[Guest DrTom]

"However, again, passing off Israeli terrorism as "casualties of war" doesn't work for me.  If Israel attacked a military target and two kids happened to be over there, fine.  However, when Israeli tanks decide to occupy Palestinian civilian territory in response to a suicide bombing, and thirty or forty Palestinians, mostly civilians, get killed by Israeli tanks, I say that's just as bad as this."

 

I wouldn't term the Israeli actions "terrorism."  They're retaliating (less so recently, to their credit) against terrorist attacks by the Palestinians.  It's no secret where the Israeli government is located, but who gets killed by the Palestinian terrorists?  Right, Israeli civilians.  Then the terrorists run back into Palestine and hide themselves among the civilians.  How is Israel supposed to find them?  Are they not supposed to retaliate against terrorism?

[Guest DrTom]

"Terrorism is just a fancy label used to get people to blindly support "the right cause".  Violence is violence."

 

If that's true, then any word (terrorism, war, etc) that conjures up images of violence, death, and oppression is just a semantic device.  "Terrorism," like "war," happens to be a very useful rhetorical device, and as such as hot-button issue, its use is probably very similar to what you describe.  I don't see why you're casting aspersion on that, though, since terrorism is something we SHOULD be opposed to.  Violence may be violence, but it's been shown time and again that there is no other way to deal with terrorists.  Violence is all they know.  You can't negotiate with them, you can't ignore them, and you can't just pass out flowers and hope they'll go away.  Killing them works; nothing else does.

 

"Innocent people dying in Israel is no more tragic than innocent people dying in Palestine."

 

That's very black-and-white.  The problem is, there are a *lot* of shades of grey in the Israel-Palestine conflicts.  One life is not worth more than another in absolute terms, true, but Palestinian civilians have a vastly different role in terrorism than Israeli ones do.

 

"This war business doesn't benefit anybody but the rich (and this goes to all us spoiled Americans who are too comfortable for our own good), and the suffering of everyone in the world has a responibility and a cause that goes back to us."

 

Maybe I'm reading that sentence wrong, but how does suffering have a responsibility?  Suffering can certainly have a cause, but I can't see it have a responsibility.  

 

"If you think that the actions of the U.S and Israeli governments. whom some of you never question or barely even acknowledge, have never been of a terrorist nature by the common definition, then you are simply too naive and you're part of the problem..."

 

At some points, they certainly have.  But there is an important difference: terrorism is all some countries do.  What else does Palestine do?  Afghanistan?  Ok, they export a lot of drugs, so they're involved in the death trade on multiple fronts.  Good job there.  Iraq?  Are you seeing the point?  We're no angels here in America, but we do a LOT of good in the world, and if we have to dirty our hands to go after certain breeds of snakes, then roll up your sleeves and pack a bar of soap.  

 

"You don't any allegiance to anyone but yourself.  Don't let anyone ever tell you what to do..."

 

Not only is that extremely black-and-white, but it's also incredibly selfish.  That sounds a lot like the attitudes you frequently condemn many of your fellow Americans for having...

 

"Now let's see who responds like a six-year old and who doesn't..."

 

Chris, you'd be a lot easier to have exchanges with if you'd just drop the sanctimonious bullshit.  This isn't the State Debate Championships, for chrissakes; it's a goddamn wrestling board.  We just happen to be in the forum that requires an IQ.

 

"I was just wondering why people don't get up in arms when innocent Palestinians are killed in this conflict.  They are people too."

 

It's simple.  Palestine is the aggressor in the scenario, and frequently carries out terrorist attacks.  I know not all of their people are involved in it, but that reputation colors how they're perceived.  They don't get any sympathy because of the reprehensible actions of some of their brethren.

 

"That's what I love about America (damn, I'm starting to make myself cry....)"

 

Careful, Chris, I might have to un-drape you in that communist flag...

[Guest DrTom]

"The cynics talked about how the US would retaliate immediately. They didn't. They talked about how they would start dropping nukes. They didn't. They talked about how they would fail in Afghanistan like the Soviets. They didn't."

 

Speaking as a cynic, with a website dedicated to the cause, I must say that your statement is very inaccurate, unless you're using "cynic" as a synonym for "moron."  No one I know who had two brain cells to rub together was seriously advocating any of the actions or outcomes you described.

 

Besides, a desire for swift, strong military action is not really a cynical point of view; it's a bellicose point of view.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"Speaking as a cynic, with a website dedicated to the cause, I must say that your statement is very inaccurate, unless you're using "cynic" as a synonym for "moron."  No one I know who had two brain cells to rub together was seriously advocating any of the actions or outcomes you described."

 

The media described frequently the problems the Soviets had in Afghanistan and wondered whether or not the same thing would happen to the US. As for using nukes, Ed Koch advocated that very thing, and he was the frigging mayor of the most important city in the world.

 

As for using the word cynic: there are plenty of times of cynics, in this case I was talking about people who take a cynical attitude towards US military power (i.e. always thinking the US is looking to flex its muscle).

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<"Terrorism is just a fancy label used to get people to blindly support "the right cause".  Violence is violence."

 

If that's true, then any word (terrorism, war, etc) that conjures up images of violence, death, and oppression is just a semantic device.  "Terrorism," like "war," happens to be a very useful rhetorical device, and as such as hot-button issue, its use is probably very similar to what you describe.  I don't see why you're casting aspersion on that, though, since terrorism is something we SHOULD be opposed to.  Violence may be violence, but it's been shown time and again that there is no other way to deal with terrorists.  Violence is all they know.  You can't negotiate with them, you can't ignore them, and you can't just pass out flowers and hope they'll go away.  Killing them works; nothing else does.>>>

 

-Fine, then by your logic we will then have to assume that the cycle of violence will never end, and that conflict will always be a part of human nature.  That's a negative, but very valid view of human nature.  The problem for idealistic people like myself it that's it's very clear what's blocking us as a whole from becoming "better" or "more fully defined" as humans is our penchant to blow each other up everytime we disagree.  There's other ways to deal with things.  Being the "greatest super-hyperpower on Earth", we could really be setting a better example. Americans have a real hard-on for guns and violence (which works out marveously for all those defense contractors, politicians, and filthy-rich businessman who get even more filthy-rich from the whole game of war), and that isn't leading us anywhere but straight down....

 

<<<"Innocent people dying in Israel is no more tragic than innocent people dying in Palestine."

 

That's very black-and-white.  The problem is, there are a *lot* of shades of grey in the Israel-Palestine conflicts.  One life is not worth more than another in absolute terms, true, but Palestinian civilians have a vastly different role in terrorism than Israeli ones do.>>>

 

-How so?  Again, I plead ignorance on many of the specifics of this conflict, which is why I sound like I'm talking out of my ass some of the time.  All I am asking from you is the same sympathy for people in Palestine who have nothing to do with this conflict directly who get killed that you afford to Israelis on the other side.  This is one of my problems with American people these days.  It's so impossible for a lot of people to feel sympathy for people who aren't aligned 110% with the "right cause."

 

<<<"This war business doesn't benefit anybody but the rich (and this goes to all us spoiled Americans who are too comfortable for our own good), and the suffering of everyone in the world has a responibility and a cause that goes back to us."

 

Maybe I'm reading that sentence wrong, but how does suffering have a responsibility?  Suffering can certainly have a cause, but I can't see it have a responsibility.>>>

 

-The fact that Americans waste so many natural resources and throw away so much money for pointless material crap, while half of Africa starves and/or is dying of AIDS is why I think we not only are a cause of much of the world's suffering, but that we also have a responsibility.  Do you see what I'm saying?  We could be doing so much more, but instead we're all glued to our TVs, addicted to CNN or the Real World, wasting away into nothing, while many people in the world wish they had something to waste away.  I really don't care how this sounds, but it's true as far as I know.  Many Americans need to be confronted with how selfish their lives are.  The point of life is to end suffering, and that's hard to do when we ignore it.  I'm not just chastising people I see.  I'm chastising myself as well.  You should do the same, because all it can do is help.

 

<<<"If you think that the actions of the U.S and Israeli governments. whom some of you never question or barely even acknowledge, have never been of a terrorist nature by the common definition, then you are simply too naive and you're part of the problem..."

 

At some points, they certainly have.  But there is an important difference: terrorism is all some countries do.  What else does Palestine do?  Afghanistan?  Ok, they export a lot of drugs, so they're involved in the death trade on multiple fronts.  Good job there.  Iraq?  Are you seeing the point?  We're no angels here in America, but we do a LOT of good in the world, and if we have to dirty our hands to go after certain breeds of snakes, then roll up your sleeves and pack a bar of soap.>>>

 

-Point taken, but again I insist we must do more.  The balance of wealth and natural resources is far too heavy on the side of America.  Canceling all Third World debt is a good example of where to start.  If you disagree, then please tell me exactly how America can benefit any more than it already has from the Third World.

 

<<<"You don't any allegiance to anyone but yourself.  Don't let anyone ever tell you what to do..."

 

Not only is that extremely black-and-white, but it's also incredibly selfish.  That sounds a lot like the attitudes you frequently condemn many of your fellow Americans for having...>>>

 

-Let me rephrase/explain.  In the end, all you have is yourself to answer to.  Being selfish is not a way to live.  The best way to make yourself feel good is by making others feel good.  If that sounds black-and-white, then fine.  Some things in life are that simple.  As far as not letting people tell you what to do, that applies to people trying to pass off some form of illegitmate authority/influence over you, which can only prevent you from thinking for yourself.

 

<<<"Now let's see who responds like a six-year old and who doesn't..."

 

Chris, you'd be a lot easier to have exchanges with if you'd just drop the sanctimonious bullshit.  This isn't the State Debate Championships, for chrissakes; it's a goddamn wrestling board.  We just happen to be in the forum that requires an IQ.>>>

 

-Point taken

 

<<<"I was just wondering why people don't get up in arms when innocent Palestinians are killed in this conflict.  They are people too."

 

It's simple.  Palestine is the aggressor in the scenario, and frequently carries out terrorist attacks.  I know not all of their people are involved in it, but that reputation colors how they're perceived.  They don't get any sympathy because of the reprehensible actions of some of their brethren.>>>

 

-This is a cycle of violence.  Both sides are aggressive and defensive at the same time.  Tom, I find it rather ignorant that you cannot feel sympathy for innocent Palestinians caught up in this conflict because of the actions of the Hamas, whom these innocent people have no real control over.  You say I think in black-and-white?  This also goes back and validates my earlier point that some Americans cannot feel sympathy for anyone associated with the "enemy."

 

<<<"That's what I love about America (damn, I'm starting to make myself cry....)"

 

Careful, Chris, I might have to un-drape you in that communist flag...>>>

 

-Just as long as I can smoke my Cuban cigar....

[Guest Sek]

Fungus, you hit it right on the nose there.  Terrorism is just a fancy label used to get people to blindly support "the right cause".  Violence is violence.  Innocent people dying in Israel is no more tragic than innocent people dying in Palestine.  This war business doesn't benefit anybody but the rich (and this goes to all us spoiled Americans who are too comfortable for our own good), and the suffering of everyone in the world has a responibility and a cause that goes back to us.  If you think that the actions of the U.S and Israeli governments. whom some of you never question or barely even acknowledge, have never been of a terrorist nature by the common definition, then you are simply too naive and you're part of the problem.....

 

You don't any allegiance to anyone but yourself.  Don't let anyone ever tell you what to do...

 

Now let's see who responds like a six-year old and who doesn't......

*sigh* once again the cause of all evil in the world is rich (presumably white American) people. I wonder what the left blames for all the oppresive communist regimes like North Korea and China...

 

 

Another thing I've always wanted to ask is why do you always leap to call US/Israel "terrorists" at every chance but the Palestinians have to massacre dozens before anyone on the left will grudgingly admit "well, maybe they are terrorists just a little bit..."?

 

 

"Don't let anyone ever tell you what to do..."  Isn't that all the left does? Tells people what's correct to say and do, and whats okay to say and believe? Isn't that the point of the whole Political Correctness idea, to control exactly what's deemed acceptable to think?

[Guest Sek]

Fine, then by your logic we will then have to assume that the cycle of violence will never end, and that conflict will always be a part of human nature.  That's a negative, but very valid view of human nature.  The problem for idealistic people like myself it that's it's very clear what's blocking us as a whole from becoming "better" or "more fully defined" as humans is our penchant to blow each other up everytime we disagree.  There's other ways to deal with things.  Being the "greatest super-hyperpower on Earth", we could really be setting a better example. Americans have a real hard-on for guns and violence (which works out marveously for all those defense contractors, politicians, and filthy-rich businessman who get even more filthy-rich from the whole game of war), and that isn't leading us anywhere but straight down....

 

 

blah.... more "rich people are evil". Hey I wish the world could get together on a hilltop and drink Coke for world peace, but seeing as how nearly 25 years of the US trying to negotiate for peace resulting in approximately dick in terms of actual peace, one would think this problem will never end until one side ceases to exist. The left doesn't want to admit that force is ever a solution, ignoring examples such as pretty much every war in human history.

 

 

The fact that Americans waste so many natural resources and throw away so much money for pointless material crap, while half of Africa starves and/or is dying of AIDS is why I think we not only are a cause of much of the world's suffering, but that we also have a responsibility.  Do you see what I'm saying?  We could be doing so much more, but instead we're all glued to our TVs, addicted to CNN or the Real World, wasting away into nothing, while many people in the world wish they had something to waste away.  I really don't care how this sounds, but it's true as far as I know.  Many Americans need to be confronted with how selfish their lives are.  The point of life is to end suffering, and that's hard to do when we ignore it.  I'm not just chastising people I see.  I'm chastising myself as well.  You should do the same, because all it can do is help.

 

Again, its all because of EVIL AMERICANS, not the fact that most of the third world nations in Africa are run by dictatorships or some other form of corrupt govermnent that diverts most aid meant from starving people.

 

 

Let me rephrase/explain.  In the end, all you have is yourself to answer to.  Being selfish is not a way to live.  The best way to make yourself feel good is by making others feel good.  If that sounds black-and-white, then fine.  Some things in life are that simple.  As far as not letting people tell you what to do, that applies to people trying to pass off some form of illegitmate authority/influence over you, which can only prevent you from thinking for yourself.

 

 

Its funny how you stress free thought, but at the same time you act as anyone who doesn't agree with you is a knuckle dragger. I already mentioned in my last post how the left uses concepts like Political Correctness to discourage thought that doesn't agree with their ideals. Apparently the only free thought is thought that agrees with you completely.

 

 

This is a cycle of violence.  Both sides are aggressive and defensive at the same time.  Tom, I find it rather ignorant that you cannot feel sympathy for innocent Palestinians caught up in this conflict because of the actions of the Hamas, whom these innocent people have no real control over.  You say I think in black-and-white?  This also goes back and validates my earlier point that some Americans cannot feel sympathy for anyone associated with the "enemy."

 

 

I'm pretty sure no one here dances in the streets that innocent people on either side got killed. However people did dance in the streets in Egypt when innocent people died in the WTC. They were probably EVIL RICH AMERICANS who had it coming anyway, so thats okay.

 

 

*goes back to lurk mode*