Those wacky palestinians are at it again!

[Guest Vern Gagne]

-The fact that Americans waste so many natural resources and throw away so much money for pointless material crap, while half of Africa starves and/or is dying of AIDS is why I think we not only are a cause of much of the world's suffering, but that we also have a responsibility.  Do you see what I'm saying?  We could be doing so much more, but instead we're all glued to our TVs, addicted to CNN or the Real World, wasting away into nothing, while many people in the world wish they had something to waste away.  I really don't care how this sounds, but it's true as far as I know.  Many Americans need to be confronted with how selfish their lives are.  The point of life is to end suffering, and that's hard to do when we ignore it.  I'm not just chastising people I see.  I'm chastising myself as well.  You should do the same, because all it can do is help. >>

 

The U.S. gives more money to third word countries than anyone else. The problem is countries in Africa, Iraq, and North Korea are either corrupt or dictatorships. The money and aid is being prevented from reaching the people. The government has control of the media, so all the people hear is how the U.S. is responsible for starving you. Unless countries like Iraq and North Korea become some kind of Democracy, we should look at spending the money on problems within the U.S.

[Guest Invader3k]

Ultimately what should happen in Israel is that the Palestinians should be expelled by the Israeli government. It won't be a popular move and will be condemned by the international community, but it's the only way I can see there being any lasting peace at this point. The Palestinians have been completely uncooperative with the Israeli government, and I don't see the Israelis putting up with these terrorist attacks for too much longer...the casualties have gotten completely out of hand (on both sides), but it is the responsibility of the Israeli government to defend its people.

 

If the Arab community of the Middle East is so quick to support the cause of the Palestinians, let them take them into their countries, I say. The Israelis can't possibly be expected to give up the territories that the Arabs are asking for...it would simply make their civilian populations too vulnerable.

 

It probably sounds like I am supporting the Israelis completely...well, maybe I am at this point. The Palestinians have repeatedly attacks Israeli civilians when the Israelis have been trying to negotiate peace, and quite frankly I think Arafat should be assassinated at this point.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<It's far more tragic. If Hamas wants to attack the military or government, well, they know where to find them.

 

They dont choose to do that. They attack innocent civilians---then run back home and hide amongst the innocents in Palestine, assuming that Israel won't get them because they are well-hidden.

 

To me, somebody who harbors a terrorist is no better than the terrorist himself.>>

 

-I see your point, but at the same time, when Israel goes looking for these Hamas members hiding amongst innocent Palestinians, and when innocent Palestinians get killed because of it, it's just as tragic as any innocent Israeli getting killed.  A innocent person is a innocent person.  Half of Hamas's evil comes from the fact that they get their own people killed because of their actions in a conflict that has no winner, and that has plenty of losers.  Instead of trying to weigh which slaughter of innocents is more tragic, realize that they are equally tragic, and equally unneccssary.>>>

 

 

I agree that they are equally tragic. However, what else can Israel do? When they don't respond, the attacks continue. Thus, the only option they have left is to try and eliminate as many of the terrorists as humanly possible.

 

Hamas' willingness to sacrifice their own people to protect themselves, IMHO, makes them infinitely worse than Israel.

 

 

<<<This war business doesn't benefit anybody but the rich (and this goes to all us spoiled Americans who are too comfortable for our own good), and the suffering of everyone in the world has a responibility and a cause that goes back to us.  If you think that the actions of the U.S and Israeli governments. whom some of you never question or barely even acknowledge, have never been of a terrorist nature by the common definition, then you are simply too naive and you're part of the problem.....>>>

 

<<<-Mike, you didn't really address what I said here, and I'm curious as to your thoughts....>>>

 

 

I, of course, don't agree. The suffering of the world is not our fault honestly. The suffering of Iraqis are not caused by the U.S embargo (though they blame us) but by the actions of the gov't. The suffering of the world is largely the fault of their individual governments and not the U.S.A nor Israel. States wish to place blame upon us to divert attention for the true cause of their peoples' plight.

 

 

<<<Israel has done nothing all week.

 

Have the attacks slowed?>>>

 

 

<<<-True, but my original point was of a broader nature.  I was just wondering why people don't get up in arms when innocent Palestinians are killed in this conflict.  They are people too. >>>

 

 

Israel has been ransacked for what they do---but, in the end, people always view the instigator of a conflict in a more negative light than somebody who responds to it.

 

 

<<<The U.S isn't involved whatsoever.

 

Have the attacks slowed?>>>

 

 

<<<-Isreal is backed with U.S funding and political support and supplied with weaponry from our military.  I would say we are involved.>>>

 

 

Shall we go into how many Muslim states benefit from our funding? The Palestinians aren't exactly lacking U.S money.

 

 

<<<The U.S has fought FOR Muslims far more often than Middle Eastern Muslim kingdoms have.

 

Have the attacks slowed?>>>

 

 

<<<-I'd be interested in some examples, because as I have said, I'm nowhere near as familiar as I should be with the history of the Arab-Isreali conflict or Middle Eastern history as a whole.>>>

 

 

We fought for Kuwait. We fought for the Bosnian Muslims. We are fighting for Muslims in Afghanistan right now.

 

How many of the Middle Eastern states can claim anything close to that? When the Muslims in Bosnia were getting slaughtered, not a word came out of the Middle East. Not a word.

 

 

<<<I will support my country to the death. I will fight to the death for your right to say the factually inaccurate things you often say.

 

I'm nice like that. :-)>>>

 

 

<<<-Mike, that's the best thing you have ever said in our many disagreements.  As long as we can live in a country where we can agree to disagree, and where people can respect and tolerate differing opinions, then we'll all be alright, and we may eventually figure out how to make things work.  That's what I love about America (damn, I'm starting to make myself cry....)>>>

 

 

I may think you're wrong and borderline cooky---but I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. :-)

               -=Mike

[Guest KoR Fungus]

Hmm, this should be fun to reply to...

 

<<<Ultimately what should happen in Israel is that the Palestinians should be expelled by the Israeli government.>>>

 

And how would you propose for the Israeli government to do that?  Issue a bunch of eviction notices, and expect the Palestinians to calmly go away?  Given that the Palestinians are willing to kill themselves for their claim to the land, Israel would have to literally kill every Palestinian in the region in order to completely remove them from the area.

 

<<<It won't be a popular move and will be condemned by the international community>>>

 

Yes, it would indeed be condemned by the international community, as it would amount to the biggest slaughter of innocents since the holocaust.  But hey, they're just Arabs, right?

 

<<<but it's the only way I can see there being any lasting peace at this point.>>>

 

Lasting peace?  Not only would the Palestinians fight a full fledged war with Israel in order to avoid expulsion, but they'd likely gain the support of all the surrounding Arab nations.  Those nations haven't really been willing to commit to war with Israel in the past, probably because they're wary of the consequences, but if Israel decided to go through with Holocaust II, everyone would be united against them, and they probably wouldn't even have the US to come to their defense.

 

<<<The Palestinians have been completely uncooperative with the Israeli government, and I don't see the Israelis putting up with these terrorist attacks for too much longer...>>>

 

Well it's not like they "put up" with them now.  They've been perfectly willing to issue eye for an eye justice for the last several months, and they'll probably escalate military efforts now.  The bottom line, though, is that Israel simply can't stop them, no matter what they do.  Even if they do try this and they are able to remove all Palestinians from the region, they'll still be suicide bombers.  There will *always* be radical Arabs willing to fight Israel, and more aggression by Israel can never stop that, and may even make it worse.

 

<<<the casualties have gotten completely out of hand (on both sides)>>>

 

Eh, the casualties on both sides will be child's play compared to what would happen if Israel really tried to go through with some expulsion plan.  Tens of thousands would die on both sides.

 

<<<but it is the responsibility of the Israeli government to defend its people.>>>

 

Which they wouldn't be doing.  Attacking Palestinians doesn't protect Israel, it just makes Israel feel like they're doing something.  There is no evidence whatsoever that the retaliatory strikes have reduced suicide bombings, and more aggression would also do nothing.

 

<<<If the Arab community of the Middle East is so quick to support the cause of the Palestinians, let them take them into their countries, I say.>>>

 

They're more likely to support the Palestinians' cause by fighting Israel, which isn't a good thing for Israel or anyone else.

 

<<<The Israelis can't possibly be expected to give up the territories that the Arabs are asking for...it would simply make their civilian populations too vulnerable.>>>

 

Well maybe true, but that's not what you've been arguing about.  Not agreeing to the Saudi proposal is not the same at all as expelling all the Palestinians from the region.  I agree that Israel has some good reasons to not agree to the Saudi proposal, but that's a different argument.

 

<<<It probably sounds like I am supporting the Israelis completely...well, maybe I am at this point. The Palestinians have repeatedly attacks Israeli civilians when the Israelis have been trying to negotiate peace, and quite frankly I think Arafat should be assassinated at this point.>>>

 

Eh see, your whole line of thought is that Israel gains some advantage by using more violence than they've been using now.  Assassinating Arafat will just make him a martyr and lead to a rash of suicide bombings far worse than what we've been seeing now.  Trying to push the Palestinians out completely would just lead to all out war and unbelievable numbers of casualties on both sides.  I don't know what Israel can do, they're in a pretty hopeless situation at this point I'll admit, but radical actions like those you propose are only going to make things much worse.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

I wouldn't term the Israeli actions "terrorism."  They're retaliating (less so recently, to their credit) against terrorist attacks by the Palestinians.  It's no secret where the Israeli government is located, but who gets killed by the Palestinian terrorists?  Right, Israeli civilians.  Then the terrorists run back into Palestine and hide themselves among the civilians.  How is Israel supposed to find them?  Are they not supposed to retaliate against terrorism?

I can't answer for sure how Israel is supposed to find the terrorists.  It's not an easy task, Israel isn't in a pleasant position.  However, I don't think that just attacking Palestinian towns indescriminantly and hoping that a terrorist or two is among the dead is a viable strategy.  That's no better than Palestinians bombing a cafe and hoping that an Israeli politican was eating lunch there.  Sure, it may work to a degree, but it's just totally morally wrong.  The US went out of their way to avoid loss of civilian life in Afghanistan, and as such I have no moral objection whatsoever to our actions over there.  Israel should do the same.  And to be honest, in some cases, Israel has done the same.  Sometimes they do gather intelligence and set up hits on known terrorists, or bomb warehouses known to be used by terrorists, and that's fine.  They need to stick to that, though.  The moment they start riding into towns with tanks and bulldozers is the moment that they stoop to the Palestinian's level and become terrorists themselves.

[Guest DrTom]

"The media described frequently the problems the Soviets had in Afghanistan and wondered whether or not the same thing would happen to the US."

 

Well, when I referred to people who had two brain cells to rub together, that immediately disqualified 99% of the national press.  Besides, you were stating "the cynics" were saying these things.  Now it was the media?

 

"As for using nukes, Ed Koch advocated that very thing, and he was the frigging mayor of the most important city in the world."

 

Ed Koch hasn't been the mayor of NYC in... hell, at least a dozen years.  And even if he were still the mayor of NYC, exactly what would that make his opinion on national nuclear policy worth?

 

"... in this case I was talking about people who take a cynical attitude towards US military power (i.e. always thinking the US is looking to flex its muscle)."

 

There are certainly plenty of people who have that opinion, and they were probably saying things similar to what you attributed to them.  I just didn't like the broad use of "the cynics" applied to the America-is-evil crowd.

[Guest DrTom]

"Fine, then by your logic we will then have to assume that the cycle of violence will never end, and that conflict will always be a part of human nature."

 

There's no assumption about it.  Violence IS a part of human nature, and it always will be.  

 

"There's other ways to deal with things."

 

Not with terrorism.

 

"Americans have a real hard-on for guns and violence (which works out marveously for all those defense contractors, politicians, and filthy-rich businessman who get even more filthy-rich from the whole game of war), and that isn't leading us anywhere but straight down..."

 

And here I thought you were actually starting to like this country?  I should have known we'd all be greedy good-for-nothing sumbitches who are pushing the world to its doom again before long.  You're nothing if not consistent, Chris.

 

"How so?"

 

Because Palestinian civilians tend to participate in terrorism, while Israeli civilians are much more often the innocent bystanders harmed or killed by terrorist attacks.  Palestinian civilians willingly harbor terrorists, also, which makes them no better than the terrorists themselves.

 

"All I am asking from you is the same sympathy for people in Palestine who have nothing to do with this conflict directly who get killed that you afford to Israelis on the other side."

 

No one, me included, wants to see innocent people killed for no reason.  Truth be told, I'm not terribly sympathetic to either side or cause in the Israel-Palestine issue.  I think Israel is a useful tool in the Middle East for the US, and should be supported for that reason and that reason alone -- the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" principle.

 

"The fact that Americans waste so many natural resources and throw away so much money for pointless material crap, while half of Africa starves and/or is dying of AIDS is why I think we not only are a cause of much of the world's suffering, but that we also have a responsibility.  Do you see what I'm saying?"

 

Then you're saying Americans have a responsibility, not *suffering* has a responsibility.  Yes, I see what you're saying, and it's the same kind of White American Guilt Complex things you normally say.  We do a LOT for the world, including in Africa and other third-world locales.  Yet we get criticized for not doing enough.  When we try to directly intercede, bad things happen; look at Somalia for an example of that.  When we do something like that, we're a bunch of meddlesome, imperialist bastards.  We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

 

"The point of life is to end suffering..."

 

I'm thrilled you've solved one of the Great Mysteries...

 

"... but again I insist we must do more.  The balance of wealth and natural resources is far too heavy on the side of America.  Canceling all Third World debt is a good example of where to start."

 

How?  Do you think a lot of those countries are actively paying down their debts?  Do you really think we're hurting their economic development THAT much?  When was the last time the US marched into some ramshackle nation and demanded $100 million in debt payment?  Besides, why should the US be punished for being successful?  It's a phenomenon of the Left that they want to punish the achievers and reduce everyone to the least common denominator, instead of raising up the bottom-dwellers to more respectable levels.  Equality thru misery, what a philosophy.

 

"The best way to make yourself feel good is by making others feel good."

 

No, that's the best way for *you* to make *your*self feel good.  Considering a lot of what happens in the world, I'd guess there are a couple billion people who see things differently.  Your credo is certainly not a bad way to live, but realize that not everyone is willing, or able, to follow it.

 

"As far as not letting people tell you what to do, that applies to people trying to pass off some form of illegitmate authority/influence over you, which can only prevent you from thinking for yourself."

 

Kinda like political correctness, eh?  The Thought Police might not be an official branch of the government, but its influence is monolithic nonetheless.  Don't most liberals champion the cause of political correctness, Chris?  It'd be good to see that you deviated from The Pack in this case, if in fact you have.

 

"Just as long as I can smoke my Cuban cigar..."

 

If you have Cubans, you'd best be passin' 'em around.

[Guest DrTom]

"I can't answer for sure how Israel is supposed to find the terrorists.  It's not an easy task, Israel isn't in a pleasant position."

 

They're certainly not.  Not only do they have the internecine conflict with Palestine always going on, but all the countries surrounding them would like nothing better than to destroy them.  It's something we simply can't relate to over here.  

 

As I've said before, I'm not too keen on either side in this whole mess.  I think Israel is preferable to Palestine, certainly, but they're also a lot more useful to the US in that part of the world.

[Guest]

"I insist we must do more... Canceling all Third World debt is a good example of where to start."

 

WTF?! I must have missed this earlier because it's just so incredibly dumb. Allowing countries to renege on their responsibilities engenders neither self-respect nor economic growth nor stability nor respect for the lender. Are you aware that many international loans and almost all loans from multilaterals (such as the IMF and World Bank) are practically interest free? After ten years, assuming the interest on a loan might have been 10%, we are essentially giving all those wretched third world countries the entire principal. Christ Jesus on a fucking pogostick. Cancel all third world debt? You sound as bloody clueless as the goddamn Pope or a rock singer. I know you're stupid, Chris, but I really hope you aren't that stupid.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Hmm, this should be fun to reply to...

 

<<<Ultimately what should happen in Israel is that the Palestinians should be expelled by the Israeli government.>>>

 

<<<And how would you propose for the Israeli government to do that?  Issue a bunch of eviction notices, and expect the Palestinians to calmly go away?  Given that the Palestinians are willing to kill themselves for their claim to the land, Israel would have to literally kill every Palestinian in the region in order to completely remove them from the area.>>>

 

 

At this rate, that might have to be the only way to go. I have little reason to believe that, should the attacks stop, Israel would continue attacking. They attack to kill off as much of the terrorist network as possible. If one group is DEDICATED to the cause of terrorism---as the Palestinian government, at the very least, is--- then that group really has no place in society.

 

 

<<<It won't be a popular move and will be condemned by the international community>>>

 

<<<Yes, it would indeed be condemned by the international community, as it would amount to the biggest slaughter of innocents since the holocaust.  But hey, they're just Arabs, right?>>>

 

 

No, they're a group of people who see nothing wrong with killing innocent civilians and, ultimately,sacrificing their own people to kill Jews. If a group will go that extreme, what CAN be done? Israel could sit back and hope that the suicide bombers end up knocking down the birth/death ratio into such a problem that makes Palestine LOSE population---but that's such a long-term strategy. :-)

 

 

<<<but it's the only way I can see there being any lasting peace at this point.>>>

 

<<<Lasting peace?  Not only would the Palestinians fight a full fledged war with Israel in order to avoid expulsion, but they'd likely gain the support of all the surrounding Arab nations.  Those nations haven't really been willing to commit to war with Israel in the past, probably because they're wary of the consequences, but if Israel decided to go through with Holocaust II, everyone would be united against them, and they probably wouldn't even have the US to come to their defense.>>>

 

 

The U.S would defend Israel because, as we have seen thus far, the Palestinians would have done something to drive Israel to whatever happens.

 

And, if Palestine was willing to fight a full-fledged war, there'd be far fewer civilian casualties for both sides in the long run.

 

 

<<<The Palestinians have been completely uncooperative with the Israeli government, and I don't see the Israelis putting up with these terrorist attacks for too much longer...>>>

 

<<<Well it's not like they "put up" with them now.  They've been perfectly willing to issue eye for an eye justice for the last several months, and they'll probably escalate military efforts now.  The bottom line, though, is that Israel simply can't stop them, no matter what they do.  Even if they do try this and they are able to remove all Palestinians from the region, they'll still be suicide bombers.  There will *always* be radical Arabs willing to fight Israel, and more aggression by Israel can never stop that, and may even make it worse.>>>

 

 

It can't make it worse. Why have no nukes been used thus far? Because the terrorists can't pull it off yet. The moment they CAN do it, they WILL do it. Nothing Israel can do would make them LESS popular to the Muslims in the Middle East---and please note that even the MODERATE Muslims in the area are shockingly radical.

 

<<<the casualties have gotten completely out of hand (on both sides)>>>

 

<<Eh, the casualties on both sides will be child's play compared to what would happen if Israel really tried to go through with some expulsion plan.  Tens of thousands would die on both sides.>>>

 

 

Fewer Israelis would die as Israel has proven, repeatedly, to be the only competent country in that region---whether it be militarily, financially, in terms of human rights...

 

<<<but it is the responsibility of the Israeli government to defend its people.>>>

 

<<<Which they wouldn't be doing.  Attacking Palestinians doesn't protect Israel, it just makes Israel feel like they're doing something.  There is no evidence whatsoever that the retaliatory strikes have reduced suicide bombings, and more aggression would also do nothing.>>>

 

 

Did doing nothing stop attacks? If they will attack REGARDLESS, then make them suffer for it. Maybe, eventually, you can turn the civilians against the PLO and Hamas.

 

<<<If the Arab community of the Middle East is so quick to support the cause of the Palestinians, let them take them into their countries, I say.>>>

 

<<<They're more likely to support the Palestinians' cause by fighting Israel, which isn't a good thing for Israel or anyone else.>>>

 

 

We've already seen that the Muslim states of the Middle East are run by a collection of nimrods, yahoos, and borderline idiots than any region has ever been afflicted with in history. They can fight Israel---and the odds of them doing anything are virtually nil.

 

Look at it this way---Iran fought Iraq for 10 years and lost.

 

We beat Iraq in, what, a month?

 

<<<The Israelis can't possibly be expected to give up the territories that the Arabs are asking for...it would simply make their civilian populations too vulnerable.>>>

 

<<<Well maybe true, but that's not what you've been arguing about.  Not agreeing to the Saudi proposal is not the same at all as expelling all the Palestinians from the region.  I agree that Israel has some good reasons to not agree to the Saudi proposal, but that's a different argument.

 

<<<It probably sounds like I am supporting the Israelis completely...well, maybe I am at this point. The Palestinians have repeatedly attacks Israeli civilians when the Israelis have been trying to negotiate peace, and quite frankly I think Arafat should be assassinated at this point.>>>

 

<<<Eh see, your whole line of thought is that Israel gains some advantage by using more violence than they've been using now.  Assassinating Arafat will just make him a martyr and lead to a rash of suicide bombings far worse than what we've been seeing now.  Trying to push the Palestinians out completely would just lead to all out war and unbelievable numbers of casualties on both sides.  I don't know what Israel can do, they're in a pretty hopeless situation at this point I'll admit, but radical actions like those you propose are only going to make things much worse. >>>

 

 

Things can't get much worse. Israel's only responsibility is to protect itself.    

                     -=Mike

[Guest KoR Fungus]

<<<At this rate, that might have to be the only way to go. I have little reason to believe that, should the attacks stop, Israel would continue attacking. They attack to kill off as much of the terrorist network as possible. If one group is DEDICATED to the cause of terrorism---as the Palestinian government, at the very least, is--- then that group really has no place in society.>>>

 

Agreed, but Invader3k was proposing expelling all Palestinians in the region.  If Israel could somehow overthrow the Palestinian authority without starting an all out war, it would be a strategy worth considering.  I think even that would be a bad idea, though, as the Palestinian government is less radical than a lot of other groups, like Hamas, who would be very likely to try to take over power if the government was overthrown.

 

<<<No, they're a group of people who see nothing wrong with killing innocent civilians and, ultimately,sacrificing their own people to kill Jews. If a group will go that extreme, what CAN be done? Israel could sit back and hope that the suicide bombers end up knocking down the birth/death ratio into such a problem that makes Palestine LOSE population---but that's such a long-term strategy. :-)>>>

 

No, *some* of them see nothing wrong with killing Jews, and *some* of them are willing to be suicide bombers.  You can't just kill/expel all of them because some of them are radical.  There *are* non-radical Palestinians too, who are just trying to get by living in their pathetic poverty ridden ghettos, but they don't get any publicity.

 

<<<The U.S would defend Israel because, as we have seen thus far, the Palestinians would have done something to drive Israel to whatever happens.>>>

 

The US has a tendancy to defend Israel, especially right after Palestinian terrorist attacks.  However, they also have a tendancy to criticize Israel when they go through with massive retaliatory attacks.  This would be much bigger than a retaliatory attack, and would get criticism from every country in the world, including the US.  Even if a lot of US people thought Israel was in the moral right, they still wouldn't stand by Israel because they'd be too concerned with the negative backlash from everyone else.

 

If Israel was just fighting a war to defend their land, I imagine the US would back them.  This would be an attempt to expand, though, and I don't think anyone really supports that.

 

<<And, if Palestine was willing to fight a full-fledged war, there'd be far fewer civilian casualties for both sides in the long run.>>>

 

That is extremely unclear.  So far, there really haven't been that many deaths on either side.  1500 Palestinians and 500 Israelis, +/- a couple hundred, sounds like a lot, but is an incredibly small number compared to the amount that die in wars.  It's possible that Israel wouldn't suffer many more than 500 deaths because of their big expensive US funded military equipment, but the Palestinian deaths would easily reach five digits, and probably would, as normal, be mostly innocents.

 

<<<It can't make it worse. Why have no nukes been used thus far? Because the terrorists can't pull it off yet. The moment they CAN do it, they WILL do it. Nothing Israel can do would make them LESS popular to the Muslims in the Middle East---and please note that even the MODERATE Muslims in the area are shockingly radical.>>>

 

Pissing off the surrounding countries enough that they'd be willing to fight Israel makes things worse.  The Palestinians are haphazard and underfunded, some of the surrounding countries have much more money and could pose a much more substantial threat to Israel.

 

<<<Fewer Israelis would die as Israel has proven, repeatedly, to be the only competent country in that region---whether it be militarily, financially, in terms of human rights...>>>

 

It's not so clear that Israel is the only competent country in the region militarily.  They're more competent than the Palestinians, but I'm not so sure they're all that much more confident than Iraq or Iran.  Yeah, we squashed Iraq, but we could squash Israel too, or anyone else, except maybe China.

 

<<<Did doing nothing stop attacks? If they will attack REGARDLESS, then make them suffer for it. Maybe, eventually, you can turn the civilians against the PLO and Hamas.>>>

 

If anything, you'll just turn them against Israel and make them suicide bombers.  Why would the civilians turn against the PLO or Hamas when it's *Israeli* tanks that are shelling their homes?  They're not going to sit down and make the connection that the Palestinians are starting it, they're just going to lash out against the group that is attacking them.

 

<<<We've already seen that the Muslim states of the Middle East are run by a collection of nimrods, yahoos, and borderline idiots than any region has ever been afflicted with in history. They can fight Israel---and the odds of them doing anything are virtually nil.

 

Look at it this way---Iran fought Iraq for 10 years and lost.

 

We beat Iraq in, what, a month?>>>

 

I'm not questioning our military might, I'm questioning Israel's.  If Israel commits such a horrible afront to human rights that we abandon them, then they'll get overrun.  Their survival depends entirely on our support.

 

<<<Things can't get much worse. Israel's only responsibility is to protect itself.>>>

 

Expelling all Palestinians from the region isn't self defense, it's expansionist.  It's Israeli instigated.  It would allow Palestinians to fight back and actually be in the right for doing so, and no one would come to Israel's defense.

 

It's also a silly argument, since it's totally unrealistic.  Only Invader3k proposed it, I don't think even someone as crazy as Sharon would even consider it.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"Ultimately what should happen in Israel is that the Palestinians should be expelled by the Israeli government."

 

How do you pronounce "Seig Heil!" in Hebrew?

[Guest DokDoyle]

Broadcast News moved this at aprox 10:10am atlantic

 

JERUSALEM -- Yet another explosion in the Mideast.

   Medics say four people are wounded after a blast near an emergency medical center in a Jewish settlement in the West Bank.

   The explosion came less than two hours after a suicide bomber blew himself up in a crowded restaurant in the Israeli port city of Haifa, also killing at least 12 other people.

[Guest teke184]

While I don't agree with expelling the Palestinians from Israel, I do see that as a legitimate possibility if the fucktards-in-charge don't stop the suicide bombers.  There has been a chance for both sides to co-exist, but Arafat's lack of control or utter disdain for the peace process is destroying it.

 

If the Palestinians want to succeed in their efforts to win back their land, they need to practice passive resistance.  Having a march of non-violent protestors being stopped harshly by the Israelis as the TV cameras roll would swing international sympathy towards the Palestinians.  (AFAIK, the only countries sympathetic to the Palestinians right now are the Arab states.)

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Agreed, but Invader3k was proposing expelling all Palestinians in the region.  If Israel could somehow overthrow the Palestinian authority without starting an all out war, it would be a strategy worth considering.  I think even that would be a bad idea, though, as the Palestinian government is less radical than a lot of other groups, like Hamas, who would be very likely to try to take over power if the government was overthrown.>>>

 

 

I agree that overthrowing Arafat and the PLO might be a good idea (I know of the whole "At least I know what I'm getting with him" line of thinking---but really, can they do much worse than Yassir?), but again, how does one do it? There is no known opposition to the PLO amongst the Palestinians. You can't attempt to overthrow a group when there is, literally, no group there to replace them.

 

 

<<<No, they're a group of people who see nothing wrong with killing innocent civilians and, ultimately,sacrificing their own people to kill Jews. If a group will go that extreme, what CAN be done? Israel could sit back and hope that the suicide bombers end up knocking down the birth/death ratio into such a problem that makes Palestine LOSE population---but that's such a long-term strategy. :-)>>>

 

<<<No, *some* of them see nothing wrong with killing Jews, and *some* of them are willing to be suicide bombers.  You can't just kill/expel all of them because some of them are radical.  There *are* non-radical Palestinians too, who are just trying to get by living in their pathetic poverty ridden ghettos, but they don't get any publicity.>>>

 

 

Yes, not all of them are like that. However, a sizable number ARE like that and even more are willing to hide the terrorists. It may be an incredibly unpopular move, but the eventual banishment of all Palestinians might be the only possible solution.

 

<<<The U.S would defend Israel because, as we have seen thus far, the Palestinians would have done something to drive Israel to whatever happens.>>>

 

<<<Th US has a tendancy to defend Israel, especially right after Palestinian terrorist attacks.  However, they also have a tendancy to criticize Israel when they go through with massive retaliatory attacks.  This would be much bigger than a retaliatory attack, and would get criticism from every country in the world, including the US.  Even if a lot of US people thought Israel was in the moral right, they still wouldn't stand by Israel because they'd be too concerned with the negative backlash from everyone else.>>>

 

 

In the end, when it's all said and done, the U.S will back their only ally in the region. We'll protest the move and send some very angry-sounding declarations their way, but we will never abandon them.

 

Israel, truly, is the only country in that region that we can trust.

 

<<<If Israel was just fighting a war to defend their land, I imagine the US would back them.  This would be an attempt to expand, though, and I don't think anyone really supports that.>>>

 

 

Since the PLO has violated the Peace agreement repeatedly, theoretically, they forfeit whatever land Israel gave them.

 

<<And, if Palestine was willing to fight a full-fledged war, there'd be far fewer civilian casualties for both sides in the long run.>>>

 

<<<That is extremely unclear.  So far, there really haven't been that many deaths on either side.  1500 Palestinians and 500 Israelis, +/- a couple hundred, sounds like a lot, but is an incredibly small number compared to the amount that die in wars.  It's possible that Israel wouldn't suffer many more than 500 deaths because of their big expensive US funded military equipment, but the Palestinian deaths would easily reach five digits, and probably would, as normal, be mostly innocents.>>>

 

 

Israel, legitimately, has targeted governmental targets and not civilian targets. They have attempted to minimize the bloodshed. If Hamas came out from hiding and attempted to fight head-on (admittedly, a suicidal prospect), Israel would have a better ability to minimize bloodshed.

 

<<<It can't make it worse. Why have no nukes been used thus far? Because the terrorists can't pull it off yet. The moment they CAN do it, they WILL do it. Nothing Israel can do would make them LESS popular to the Muslims in the Middle East---and please note that even the MODERATE Muslims in the area are shockingly radical.>>>

 

<<<Pissing off the surrounding countries enough that they'd be willing to fight Israel makes things worse.  The Palestinians are haphazard and underfunded, some of the surrounding countries have much more money and could pose a much more substantial threat to Israel.>>>

 

 

The surrounding countries hate Israel---but they FEAR them. They have attacked in the past and have never been able to defeat Israel in a military battle.

And, after the Persian Gulf War, I have little faith in our estimates about a Muslim state's military power. They are FAR weaker than we give them credit for.

 

<<<Fewer Israelis would die as Israel has proven, repeatedly, to be the only competent country in that region---whether it be militarily, financially, in terms of human rights...>>>

 

<<<It's not so clear that Israel is the only competent country in the region militarily.  They're more competent than the Palestinians, but I'm not so sure they're all that much more confident than Iraq or Iran.  Yeah, we squashed Iraq, but we could squash Israel too, or anyone else, except maybe China.>>>

 

 

I'll say this---if Iraq thought, for a moment, that it could POSSIBLY defeat Israel---they'd have attacked them. Israel is one of the world's great militaries

 

And we could squash China as well. Technologically, nobody is on the same playing field as we are. Numerical advantages can easily be overcome by superior weaponry.

 

<<<Did doing nothing stop attacks? If they will attack REGARDLESS, then make them suffer for it. Maybe, eventually, you can turn the civilians against the PLO and Hamas.>>>

 

<<<If anything, you'll just turn them against Israel and make them suicide bombers.  Why would the civilians turn against the PLO or Hamas when it's *Israeli* tanks that are shelling their homes?  They're not going to sit down and make the connection that the Palestinians are starting it, they're just going to lash out against the group that is attacking them.>>>

 

 

Doing nothing won't do it, either. At least this way, some Palestinians MIGHT think that things could be better if the PLO disappeared. And, don't forget, this would also placate the Israeli populace who disdain the idea of being sitting duck targets for terrorists.

 

<<<We've already seen that the Muslim states of the Middle East are run by a collection of nimrods, yahoos, and borderline idiots than any region has ever been afflicted with in history. They can fight Israel---and the odds of them doing anything are virtually nil.

 

Look at it this way---Iran fought Iraq for 10 years and lost.

 

We beat Iraq in, what, a month?>>>

 

<<<I'm not questioning our military might, I'm questioning Israel's.  If Israel commits such a horrible afront to human rights that we abandon them, then they'll get overrun.  Their survival depends entirely on our support.>>>

 

 

No matter WHAT Israel does, they'll STILL look better than any state in the region. Short of dropping nuclear warheads, Israel would be hard-pressed to out-do the evil things many of the Muslim states have done.

 

<<<Things can't get much worse. Israel's only responsibility is to protect itself.>>>

 

<<<Expelling all Palestinians from the region isn't self defense, it's expansionist.  It's Israeli instigated.  It would allow Palestinians to fight back and actually be in the right for doing so, and no one would come to Israel's defense.>>>

 

 

At a certain point, Israel might have to turn to us and say "We have no other choice". We will, and this almost a 100% guarantee, end up supporting them.

                    -=Mike

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<There's no assumption about it.  Violence IS a part of human nature, and it always will be.  

 

"There's other ways to deal with things."

 

Not with terrorism.>>>

 

-A violent response to a violent reaction will always lead to more violence.  Terrorism will always exist as long as we insist on solving our problems with violence instead of non-violent words and ideas. Call that naive, but that is the way I see things, and I'd rather be naive than blood-thirsty.

 

<<<"Americans have a real hard-on for guns and violence (which works out marveously for all those defense contractors, politicians, and filthy-rich businessman who get even more filthy-rich from the whole game of war), and that isn't leading us anywhere but straight down..."

 

And here I thought you were actually starting to like this country?  I should have known we'd all be greedy good-for-nothing sumbitches who are pushing the world to its doom again before long.  You're nothing if not consistent, Chris.>>>

 

-Well thanks.  I admit that I do have a problem lumping all Americans together under one handy banner when it fits the argument, and I will do my best to avoid that in the future.  At the same time, I do feel that a lot of people in this country are a bit too turned on by violence to the point that they forget or are unaware of other possible solutions.

 

<<<Palestinian civilians willingly harbor terrorists, also, which makes them no better than the terrorists themselves.>>>

 

-So, you are lumping every single Palestinian civilian, many who are clinging to survival, into a group that you state is "no better than the terrorists themselves."  That's a dangerous and real easy assumption to make.  As much as you criticize my "hippee" ways, I feel justified in my beliefs after reading something like that.  I'm just glad to have the ability to look at a situation like what is happening in Palestine and be able to realize that not everyone is guilty down there.  It's real easy to label someone a terrorist it fits your world-view.  I'm not excusing the people who do harbor terrorists, but it is absolutely wrong to group every single Palestinian along with them.

 

<<<"The fact that Americans waste so many natural resources and throw away so much money for pointless material crap, while half of Africa starves and/or is dying of AIDS is why I think we not only are a cause of much of the world's suffering, but that we also have a responsibility.  Do you see what I'm saying?"

 

Then you're saying Americans have a responsibility, not *suffering* has a responsibility.  Yes, I see what you're saying, and it's the same kind of White American Guilt Complex things you normally say.  We do a LOT for the world, including in Africa and other third-world locales.  Yet we get criticized for not doing enough.  When we try to directly intercede, bad things happen; look at Somalia for an example of that.  When we do something like that, we're a bunch of meddlesome, imperialist bastards.  We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.>>>

 

-Thank you, Dr Freud.  I suppose that at your website, I can pick up a Dr. Tom "That's just your White American Guilt Complex" t-shirt for $15.  Listen, I'm white and I'm American.  I realize the position of privelage I am in, and rather than be guilty of it, I use my voice (which is essentially the same voice as everyone else) to point out what I think is wrong with the world, and what I think and hope could be done to better the lives of millions of people who are simply struggling to survive while a large portion of the world ignores their cries. You have every right to disagree with me.  It wouldn't be right any other way.  As you recommend to me to cut out the patronizing BS around here, I ask you to keep the bookworm psych stuff at home.  I've already looked at my "guilt complex", explored it, and cast it aside.

 

<<<"The point of life is to end suffering..."

 

I'm thrilled you've solved one of the Great Mysteries...>>>

 

-Me too.

 

<<<"As far as not letting people tell you what to do, that applies to people trying to pass off some form of illegitmate authority/influence over you, which can only prevent you from thinking for yourself."

 

Kinda like political correctness, eh?  The Thought Police might not be an official branch of the government, but its influence is monolithic nonetheless.  Don't most liberals champion the cause of political correctness, Chris?  It'd be good to see that you deviated from The Pack in this case, if in fact you have.>>>

 

-I'm right with ya, Doc.  PC, along with any censorship (with the exception of self-censorship, which can be very smart in delicate situations) is totally wrong and immoral to me.  Who is anyone is a "position of power" to tell of any us what we can and cannot experience?  There is a common sense that I think we all share, and it doesn't help anyone when people in this world impose their own common sense for their own benefit.  We all have the ability to live our lives to the fullest (and by this, I don't mean widespread anarchy....wait a minute.......that would be very cool), and if we're not allowed to do that, then we suffer.

[Guest Sek]

-A violent response to a violent reaction will always lead to more violence.  Terrorism will always exist as long as we insist on solving our problems with violence instead of non-violent words and ideas. Call that naive, but that is the way I see things, and I'd rather be naive than blood-thirsty.

 

 

When its been proven beyond all doubt that peace talks and/or negotiations won't end a conflict, that kind of leaves only one option.

 

 

-Well thanks.  I admit that I do have a problem lumping all Americans together under one handy banner when it fits the argument, and I will do my best to avoid that in the future.  At the same time, I do feel that a lot of people in this country are a bit too turned on by violence to the point that they forget or are unaware of other possible solutions.

 

...or maybe more people are starting to realize "hey Israel and Palestine have been having 'peace talks' for like 25+ years now and the fighting is worse than ever"....sorry the liberal "violence is never the answer" mantra has to be proven wrong, but again, nothing else seems to be working.

 

 

-So, you are lumping every single Palestinian civilian, many who are clinging to survival, into a group that you state is "no better than the terrorists themselves."  That's a dangerous and real easy assumption to make.  As much as you criticize my "hippee" ways, I feel justified in my beliefs after reading something like that.  I'm just glad to have the ability to look at a situation like what is happening in Palestine and be able to realize that not everyone is guilty down there.  It's real easy to label someone a terrorist it fits your world-view.  I'm not excusing the people who do harbor terrorists, but it is absolutely wrong to group every single Palestinian along with them.

 

 

So let me get this straight, its okay for you to label all Americans to "fit the argument", but you jump all over someone who does it to Palestinians?

 

 

Thank you, Dr Freud.  I suppose that at your website, I can pick up a Dr. Tom "That's just your White American Guilt Complex" t-shirt for $15.  Listen, I'm white and I'm American.  I realize the position of privelage I am in, and rather than be guilty of it, I use my voice (which is essentially the same voice as everyone else) to point out what I think is wrong with the world, and what I think and hope could be done to better the lives of millions of people who are simply struggling to survive while a large portion of the world ignores their cries. You have every right to disagree with me.  It wouldn't be right any other way.  As you recommend to me to cut out the patronizing BS around here, I ask you to keep the bookworm psych stuff at home.  I've already looked at my "guilt complex", explored it, and cast it aside.

 

You claim you cast it aside, yet its the basis of 95% of your posts....

 

 

-I'm right with ya, Doc.  PC, along with any censorship (with the exception of self-censorship, which can be very smart in delicate situations) is totally wrong and immoral to me.  Who is anyone is a "position of power" to tell of any us what we can and cannot experience?  There is a common sense that I think we all share, and it doesn't help anyone when people in this world impose their own common sense for their own benefit.  We all have the ability to live our lives to the fullest (and by this, I don't mean widespread anarchy....wait a minute.......that would be very cool), and if we're not allowed to do that, then we suffer.

 

Do you not see the hypocracy in that statement compared with your general overall attitude that anyone who doesn't agree with you is sub-intellegent?

 

Well at least you think anarchy would be cool, and when you think about it, anarchy is conservatism at its extreme (less goverment is better) so maybe there's hope for you yet.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

-A violent response to a violent reaction will always lead to more violence.  Terrorism will always exist as long as we insist on solving our problems with violence instead of non-violent words and ideas. Call that naive, but that is the way I see things, and I'd rather be naive than blood-thirsty

 

Non-violence and appeasement is what led to Hitler gaining the strength that he did.  Had Britain & France attacked Germany in 1935 like they should have it would have saved millions of lives.  Peace treaties are only useful if both sides are actual interested in peace.  The Palestinians have proven by now that they have no intention of a peaceful coexistence with Israel.  Sometimes you have no choice but to fight.

[Guest the desert fox]

Has everybody on this site forgotten that Yitzak Rabin and , yes, the almighty evil Yasser Arafat NEARLY achieved a fair peace settlement until Rabin was assaniated by a ZIONIST.  So lets not hear anymore of this Arafat will not talk peace rubbish.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Has everybody on this site forgotten that Yitzak Rabin and , yes, the almighty evil Yasser Arafat NEARLY achieved a fair peace settlement until Rabin was assaniated by a ZIONIST.  So lets not hear anymore of this Arafat will not talk peace rubbish.>>>

 

 

And you honestly believe Arafat would have actually SIGNED anything?

 

Amazing that he has been unwilling to actually discuss peace ever since.

                    -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<-A violent response to a violent reaction will always lead to more violence.  Terrorism will always exist as long as we insist on solving our problems with violence instead of non-violent words and ideas. Call that naive, but that is the way I see things, and I'd rather be naive than blood-thirsty.>>>

 

 

Chris, what if one side continually attacks no matter WHAT the other side does?

 

What if one side offers the other side almost everything the side asked for---yet the other side STILL wouldn't negotiate peace and has launched countless suicide bombings?

 

At what point do you write off one group as being unwilling to actually live in peace?

 

We've been waiting for about 50 years for the Muslim states to accept Israel and to cease supporting attacks againsrt Israel---and it has yet to happen.

 

It's naive to suddenly expect this to change.

 

 

<<<-Well thanks.  I admit that I do have a problem lumping all Americans together under one handy banner when it fits the argument, and I will do my best to avoid that in the future.  At the same time, I do feel that a lot of people in this country are a bit too turned on by violence to the point that they forget or are unaware of other possible solutions.>>>

 

 

A lot of Americans just refer back to the 1930's, the last time an attempt was made to placate a dictator.

 

Chris, can we agree that violence was the only way to handle that situation?

 

 

<<<-So, you are lumping every single Palestinian civilian, many who are clinging to survival, into a group that you state is "no better than the terrorists themselves."  That's a dangerous and real easy assumption to make.  As much as you criticize my "hippee" ways, I feel justified in my beliefs after reading something like that.  I'm just glad to have the ability to look at a situation like what is happening in Palestine and be able to realize that not everyone is guilty down there.  It's real easy to label someone a terrorist it fits your world-view.  I'm not excusing the people who do harbor terrorists, but it is absolutely wrong to group every single Palestinian along with them. >>>

 

 

He didn't say that. He said Palestinians are FAR more likely to engage in terrorism while Israeli civilians are FAR more likely to be the victims.

 

It's not a stretch to say that at all.

 

 

<<<-Thank you, Dr Freud.  I suppose that at your website, I can pick up a Dr. Tom "That's just your White American Guilt Complex" t-shirt for $15.  Listen, I'm white and I'm American.  I realize the position of privelage I am in, and rather than be guilty of it, I use my voice (which is essentially the same voice as everyone else) to point out what I think is wrong with the world, and what I think and hope could be done to better the lives of millions of people who are simply struggling to survive while a large portion of the world ignores their cries. You have every right to disagree with me.  It wouldn't be right any other way.  As you recommend to me to cut out the patronizing BS around here, I ask you to keep the bookworm psych stuff at home.  I've already looked at my "guilt complex", explored it, and cast it aside.>>>

 

 

Fair enough---but don't sit there and place the problems of the world upon OUR successes as a country. When you have governments running the economies, the states ALWAYS are poor.

                             -=Mike

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<-So, you are lumping every single Palestinian civilian, many who are clinging to survival, into a group that you state is "no better than the terrorists themselves."  That's a dangerous and real easy assumption to make.  As much as you criticize my "hippee" ways, I feel justified in my beliefs after reading something like that.  I'm just glad to have the ability to look at a situation like what is happening in Palestine and be able to realize that not everyone is guilty down there.  It's real easy to label someone a terrorist it fits your world-view.  I'm not excusing the people who do harbor terrorists, but it is absolutely wrong to group every single Palestinian along with them.  

 

So let me get this straight, its okay for you to label all Americans to "fit the argument", but you jump all over someone who does it to Palestinians?>>>

 

-Well, if you would've read a bit closer, you would see I admit to lumping all Americans together when it's convenient.  It may be convenient, but it's not right, and I admit that.  It's real easy, but it's also real dangerous to brand a group of people as one thing because of the activites and beliefs of people within that group, but life is not that easy.  By looking closer at situations, and realizing the diversity of what is there (which I admit does not wholly exist in Palestine right now), things will become clearer.  I still believe it is totally wrong to condemn all Palestinians, espiecally those who are as much a victim of this conflict as any Israeli killed by a suicide bomber, because of the actions of the Hamas.  

 

 

<<<Thank you, Dr Freud.  I suppose that at your website, I can pick up a Dr. Tom "That's just your White American Guilt Complex" t-shirt for $15.  Listen, I'm white and I'm American.  I realize the position of privelage I am in, and rather than be guilty of it, I use my voice (which is essentially the same voice as everyone else) to point out what I think is wrong with the world, and what I think and hope could be done to better the lives of millions of people who are simply struggling to survive while a large portion of the world ignores their cries. You have every right to disagree with me.  It wouldn't be right any other way.  As you recommend to me to cut out the patronizing BS around here, I ask you to keep the bookworm psych stuff at home.  I've already looked at my "guilt complex", explored it, and cast it aside.

 

 

You claim you cast it aside, yet its the basis of 95% of your posts....>>>

 

-That's how you percieve it.   If you want to keep up the psych stuff in order to sound smart, be my guest....

 

 

<<<-I'm right with ya, Doc.  PC, along with any censorship (with the exception of self-censorship, which can be very smart in delicate situations) is totally wrong and immoral to me.  Who is anyone is a "position of power" to tell of any us what we can and cannot experience?  There is a common sense that I think we all share, and it doesn't help anyone when people in this world impose their own common sense for their own benefit.  We all have the ability to live our lives to the fullest (and by this, I don't mean widespread anarchy....wait a minute.......that would be very cool), and if we're not allowed to do that, then we suffer.

 

 

Do you not see the hypocracy in that statement compared with your general overall attitude that anyone who doesn't agree with you is sub-intellegent?>>>

 

-Well, at least I know how to spell

 

<<<Well at least you think anarchy would be cool, and when you think about it, anarchy is conservatism at its extreme (less goverment is better) so maybe there's hope for you yet.>>>

 

-I'm all for anarchy.  A little Apocalypse now and then is good for cleaning out all the muck clogging the drains......

[Guest]

I'm all for anarchy.  A little Apocalypse now and then is good for cleaning out all the muck clogging the drains......

 

I've never heard such a disgusting expression of a complete lack of respect for human life.

 

No, wait. I think bin Laden's second telecast might have approached it.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<-A violent response to a violent reaction will always lead to more violence.  Terrorism will always exist as long as we insist on solving our problems with violence instead of non-violent words and ideas. Call that naive, but that is the way I see things, and I'd rather be naive than blood-thirsty.

 

 

Chris, what if one side continually attacks no matter WHAT the other side does?

 

What if one side offers the other side almost everything the side asked for---yet the other side STILL wouldn't negotiate peace and has launched countless suicide bombings?

 

At what point do you write off one group as being unwilling to actually live in peace?

 

We've been waiting for about 50 years for the Muslim states to accept Israel and to cease supporting attacks againsrt Israel---and it has yet to happen.

 

It's naive to suddenly expect this to change.>>>

 

-Mike, I see what you are saying.  I guess you could say my point above relates more to situations that have yet to fall into violence.  It doesn't take much to see how beyond repair the situation is in Israel/Palestine, and at this point, the hopes of any kind of peace are squarely in Israel's hands.  How will this peace be achieved, if at all?  Who knows, but I don't agree with some of the earlier points calling for the expulsion of all Palestinians.  Israel and all its allies would seriously be asking for it if they tried to do that, and it would make the violence of the past few weeks look like a simple border skirmish...

 

<<<-Well thanks.  I admit that I do have a problem lumping all Americans together under one handy banner when it fits the argument, and I will do my best to avoid that in the future.  At the same time, I do feel that a lot of people in this country are a bit too turned on by violence to the point that they forget or are unaware of other possible solutions.

 

 

A lot of Americans just refer back to the 1930's, the last time an attempt was made to placate a dictator.

 

Chris, can we agree that violence was the only way to handle that situation?>>>

 

-Yes, we can.  Hitler wanted to do things the hard way, and he paid the price.

 

<<<-So, you are lumping every single Palestinian civilian, many who are clinging to survival, into a group that you state is "no better than the terrorists themselves."  That's a dangerous and real easy assumption to make.  As much as you criticize my "hippee" ways, I feel justified in my beliefs after reading something like that.  I'm just glad to have the ability to look at a situation like what is happening in Palestine and be able to realize that not everyone is guilty down there.  It's real easy to label someone a terrorist it fits your world-view.  I'm not excusing the people who do harbor terrorists, but it is absolutely wrong to group every single Palestinian along with them.

 

 

He didn't say that. He said Palestinians are FAR more likely to engage in terrorism while Israeli civilians are FAR more likely to be the victims.

 

It's not a stretch to say that at all.>>>

 

-True, but I still cannot condemn any Palestinian who is as much a victim of this conflict as any Israeli killed.  Like I've said before, Hamas is just as responsible for the death of their own people as they are for the deaths of innocent Israelis.

 

<<<-Thank you, Dr Freud.  I suppose that at your website, I can pick up a Dr. Tom "That's just your White American Guilt Complex" t-shirt for $15.  Listen, I'm white and I'm American.  I realize the position of privelage I am in, and rather than be guilty of it, I use my voice (which is essentially the same voice as everyone else) to point out what I think is wrong with the world, and what I think and hope could be done to better the lives of millions of people who are simply struggling to survive while a large portion of the world ignores their cries. You have every right to disagree with me.  It wouldn't be right any other way.  As you recommend to me to cut out the patronizing BS around here, I ask you to keep the bookworm psych stuff at home.  I've already looked at my "guilt complex", explored it, and cast it aside.

 

 

Fair enough---but don't sit there and place the problems of the world upon OUR successes as a country. When you have governments running the economies, the states ALWAYS are poor.>>>

                           

-Exactly, but you could also say the same thing when the economy runs the government, which is very much how it has been ever since the Industrial Revolution.  Politics are just a sideshow that distracts us from Big Business...

[Guest DrTom]

"Terrorism will always exist as long as we insist on solving our problems with violence instead of non-violent words and ideas."

 

No, terrorism will exist as long as people think that indiscriminately killing others will foster their agenda.  A policy of not negotiating with such sociopaths is good.  Violence is all they know, violence is all they'll respond to and respect, and violence is the method that HAS to be used to deal with them.  If you don't like it, that's fine, but be aware that showing kindness to remorseless killers will not get them to change their ways.

 

"Call that naive, but that is the way I see things, and I'd rather be naive than blood-thirsty."

 

Ok, that's naive.    Hey, you asked for it.  I don't think the opposite point of view is bloodthirsty, just realistic.  

 

"At the same time, I do feel that a lot of people in this country are a bit too turned on by violence to the point that they forget or are unaware of other possible solutions."

 

I think a lot of people in this country are desensitized to violence.  The immediacy of national and world news -- especially now in the era of the interner -- has given us near-instantaneous access to an endless stream of stories about terrorism, death, civil war, genocide, famine, etc.  People die all the time, and we probably hear about most of them.  I don't think this makes anyone unaware of other solutions, but it does lessen the potential impact of a violent solution, however necessary that solution may be.  

 

"So, you are lumping every single Palestinian civilian, many who are clinging to survival, into a group that you state is "no better than the terrorists themselves."  

 

No, just the group that harbors the terrorists, or aids them in any way.  Their last few terrorist attacks have been quite disgusting, in fact, which makes me wonder how anyone can seriosuly sympathize with their "cause."  Maybe you'd get your land back if you'd stop blowing shit up and killing people all the time, including putting *medical and rescue workers* in danger by rigging a second explosion.  Fuck every single conscienceless bastard involved in that.  I hope Israel finds every last one of them, and everyone who helped them.

 

"I suppose that at your website, I can pick up a Dr. Tom "That's just your White American Guilt Complex" t-shirt for $15."

 

No, they're $20, because I'm a greedy capitalist pig.

 

"As you recommend to me to cut out the patronizing BS around here, I ask you to keep the bookworm psych stuff at home."

 

It's hardly "bookworm psych stuff," but fair enough.

 

"We all have the ability to live our lives to the fullest (and by this, I don't mean widespread anarchy....wait a minute.......that would be very cool), and if we're not allowed to do that, then we suffer."

 

Widespread anarchy would *NOT* be cool at all.  Jefferson said a little revolution every now and then was a good thing, but refer to the bloodless transfer of power in this country in 1800 for an example of that.  I don't believe a true democracy is workable, so I certainly don't believe in anarchy.  Besides, anarchy is the extreme of conservatism, which makes me wonder why you seem to like it.

[Guest DrTom]

"-Well, at least I know how to spell."

 

"I realize the position of privelage I am in..."

 

I'll leave the punchline as an exercise for the reader.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<Chris, what if one side continually attacks no matter WHAT the other side does?

 

What if one side offers the other side almost everything the side asked for---yet the other side STILL wouldn't negotiate peace and has launched countless suicide bombings?

 

At what point do you write off one group as being unwilling to actually live in peace?

 

We've been waiting for about 50 years for the Muslim states to accept Israel and to cease supporting attacks againsrt Israel---and it has yet to happen.

 

It's naive to suddenly expect this to change.>>>

 

-Mike, I see what you are saying.  I guess you could say my point above relates more to situations that have yet to fall into violence.  It doesn't take much to see how beyond repair the situation is in Israel/Palestine, and at this point, the hopes of any kind of peace are squarely in Israel's hands.  How will this peace be achieved, if at all?  Who knows, but I don't agree with some of the earlier points calling for the expulsion of all Palestinians.  Israel and all its allies would seriously be asking for it if they tried to do that, and it would make the violence of the past few weeks look like a simple border skirmish...>>>

 

 

How are the chances for peace squarely in Israel's hand? Israel was attempting to negotiate peace when this latest slate of attacks commenced.

 

And, just for the sake of moral equivalence, let's look at what has transpired:

 

Palestinians killed numerous Israeli civilians who are completely innocent.

 

Israel tore down the buildings of the PLO which supports (financially and politically) Hamas.

 

Can we not concur that Israel is HARDLY the bad guy here?

 

<<<-Well thanks.  I admit that I do have a problem lumping all Americans together under one handy banner when it fits the argument, and I will do my best to avoid that in the future.  At the same time, I do feel that a lot of people in this country are a bit too turned on by violence to the point that they forget or are unaware of other possible solutions.

 

 

A lot of Americans just refer back to the 1930's, the last time an attempt was made to placate a dictator.

 

Chris, can we agree that violence was the only way to handle that situation?>>>

 

-Yes, we can.  Hitler wanted to do things the hard way, and he paid the price.>>>

 

 

And do you honestly believe Arafat is different? Arafat is just another Hitler and Stalin---just with a far less competent apparatus to execute his desires.

 

 

<<<-So, you are lumping every single Palestinian civilian, many who are clinging to survival, into a group that you state is "no better than the terrorists themselves."  That's a dangerous and real easy assumption to make.  As much as you criticize my "hippee" ways, I feel justified in my beliefs after reading something like that.  I'm just glad to have the ability to look at a situation like what is happening in Palestine and be able to realize that not everyone is guilty down there.  It's real easy to label someone a terrorist it fits your world-view.  I'm not excusing the people who do harbor terrorists, but it is absolutely wrong to group every single Palestinian along with them.

 

 

He didn't say that. He said Palestinians are FAR more likely to engage in terrorism while Israeli civilians are FAR more likely to be the victims.

 

It's not a stretch to say that at all.>>>

 

-True, but I still cannot condemn any Palestinian who is as much a victim of this conflict as any Israeli killed.  Like I've said before, Hamas is just as responsible for the death of their own people as they are for the deaths of innocent Israelis.>>>

 

 

Exactly. Israel, and I truly believe this, has done everything possible to minimize the deaths of Palestinian civilians. When they attack a target, everybody knows WHY they attacked it---it is usually a PLO building or one that houses members of Hamas. They don't attack randomly.

 

 

<<<-Thank you, Dr Freud.  I suppose that at your website, I can pick up a Dr. Tom "That's just your White American Guilt Complex" t-shirt for $15.  Listen, I'm white and I'm American.  I realize the position of privelage I am in, and rather than be guilty of it, I use my voice (which is essentially the same voice as everyone else) to point out what I think is wrong with the world, and what I think and hope could be done to better the lives of millions of people who are simply struggling to survive while a large portion of the world ignores their cries. You have every right to disagree with me.  It wouldn't be right any other way.  As you recommend to me to cut out the patronizing BS around here, I ask you to keep the bookworm psych stuff at home.  I've already looked at my "guilt complex", explored it, and cast it aside.

 

 

Fair enough---but don't sit there and place the problems of the world upon OUR successes as a country. When you have governments running the economies, the states ALWAYS are poor.>>>

                           

-Exactly, but you could also say the same thing when the economy runs the government, which is very much how it has been ever since the Industrial Revolution.  Politics are just a sideshow that distracts us from Big Business... >>>

 

 

No, I don't agree with that at all. Businesses are a hand-cuffed by governmental rules and regulations as anybody. For a group that gives as much money to both parties as they do, corporations don't often get compliments paid to them.

                                 -=Mike

 

...Who, yes, fervently supports Microsoft and who thinks that the government filed an absurd anti-trust suit against them.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<Quote  

I'm all for anarchy.  A little Apocalypse now and then is good for cleaning out all the muck clogging the drains......  

 

 

I've never heard such a disgusting expression of a complete lack of respect for human life.

 

No, wait. I think bin Laden's second telecast might have approached it.>>>

 

-Geez, you need to get out more often....

[Guest]

you need to get out more often

Why? So I'll hear more neurotic guilt-ridden spiels about the failings of the world being our fault from ignorant white trash who think they know every damn thing about the world because they read a little Chomsky between coffee breaks? FK Teale said it best. You're a child. An absolute infant. Your jaded anti-American cynicism is uninformed, semidelusional bullshit at best, and hysterical, venomous, misdirected bullshit at worst. Why don't you try getting out more often, and finding out what actually goes on in the countries you pontificate about. You yourself admitted that you were (and I quote) "uninformed" about the Palestinian situation. So that lack of information automatically makes you an expert?

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<Mike, I see what you are saying.  I guess you could say my point above relates more to situations that have yet to fall into violence.  It doesn't take much to see how beyond repair the situation is in Israel/Palestine, and at this point, the hopes of any kind of peace are squarely in Israel's hands.  How will this peace be achieved, if at all?  Who knows, but I don't agree with some of the earlier points calling for the expulsion of all Palestinians.  Israel and all its allies would seriously be asking for it if they tried to do that, and it would make the violence of the past few weeks look like a simple border skirmish...>>>

 

 

How are the chances for peace squarely in Israel's hand? Israel was attempting to negotiate peace when this latest slate of attacks commenced.

 

And, just for the sake of moral equivalence, let's look at what has transpired:

 

Palestinians killed numerous Israeli civilians who are completely innocent.

 

Israel tore down the buildings of the PLO which supports (financially and politically) Hamas.

 

Can we not concur that Israel is HARDLY the bad guy here?>>>

 

-Let me be a bit clearer.  By saying that the hope of peace lies in Israel's hands, I'm saying that they have the ability right now to bring some type of peaceful resolution to this situation, and your examples presented above show that they are trying to cut off the PLO's head by going after the PLO, instead of targeting innocent civilians to make a point like Hamas.

 

A lot of Americans just refer back to the 1930's, the last time an attempt was made to placate a dictator.

 

<<<Chris, can we agree that violence was the only way to handle that situation?

 

-Yes, we can.  Hitler wanted to do things the hard way, and he paid the price.

 

 

And do you honestly believe Arafat is different? Arafat is just another Hitler and Stalin---just with a far less competent apparatus to execute his desires.>>>

 

-I see your point, though I've never heard Arafat call for the genocide of all Jews, but then again, provide me with a few concrete examples.  This is like me stating that the U.S government has been involved in terrorist activities in the past, and then being too lazy to look up and/or remember any concrete examples.