Those wacky palestinians are at it again!

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<you need to get out more often

 

Why? So I'll hear more neurotic guilt-ridden spiels about the failings of the world being our fault from ignorant white trash who think they know every damn thing about the world because they read a little Chomsky between coffee breaks? FK Teale said it best. You're a child. An absolute infant. Your jaded anti-American cynicism is uninformed, semidelusional bullshit at best, and hysterical, venomous, misdirected bullshit at worst. Why don't you try getting out more often, and finding out what actually goes on in the countries you pontificate about. You yourself admitted that you were (and I quote) "uninformed" about the Palestinian situation. So that lack of information automatically makes you an expert?>>>

 

-This my friends is what is called stereotyping someone you don't know.  We all do it, so don't feel ashamed.  To prove that one shouldn't assume, I'll pick apart your post bit by bit..

 

1. I'm not white trash, and I feel deeply, deeply, deeply disturbed you would insinuate that.  I do like NASCAR, but I have all my teeth, so while I may be white, I have yet to become trash.

2. Hey, I DO read Chomsky, but it isn't anything I don't already know, so I stop after about five minutes.  And I don't drink coffee.

3. FK Teale?  Who's that

4. There's nothing wrong with being a child.  If you lose touch with your childhood, you end up like Marney.  Bitter and frothing at the mouth whenever someone like me posts around here.

5. You're right.  A lot of what I say is bullshit.  Tell me something I don't know

6. I do get out plenty.  Ask your sister. HEY-O!!

 

Have a sense of humor, Marney.  I'm just playin....

[Guest]

You want me to have a sense of humour about suffering, agony, and death? You're talking about people's lives, and you say you're "just playin'?" I don't think I can add anything more to that. You've damned yourself by your own hand.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<You've damned yourself by your own hand.>>>

 

-I can do that?  Sweet!  Maybe we can be roommates in Hell.....

[Guest]

Teale, by the way, was the chap who thoroughly ripped you to shreds in this thread. Naturally you don't remember, because you responded with the same lame unsubstantive LOL bullshit you always fall back on whenever your submoronic arguments are irrefutably countered by anyone with half a clue: "someone needs to relax." You don't make me "froth at the mouth." You disgust me. You're nothing more than a spineless, snivelling coward. You are less than irrelevant. You're not even wrong.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Keep it coming, Marney.  I find this immensely entertaining. If I'm less that irrelevant, then I find it odd that you're sitting at your computer, pressing refresh every six seconds to see if I responded, all ready to call me a bunch of names from the "I Hate Liberals" textbook you seem to have handy.  I hope this is making you feel proud of yourself....

 

"You're not even wrong"-Marney

[Guest]

I find this immensely entertaining.

Of course you do, because you're incapable of answering it. Empty snickering is your only recourse.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Slow down, tough guy.  Fine, I'll answer.  Yes, it's true.  I'm just a rich white boy guilty of my affluence.  I hate being well off, and if I could do anything, I'd just give up everything I have, and live with "the forest people", where we could all sit around the campfire and smoke gigantic blunts until our eyes turn purple.  Better yet, I'll join the Marney Society, where I will sit at your feet and agree with anything you say, because thinking for yourself is dangerous.  Forgive me for being different from you.  If I knew it would cause you so much grief, I would have suggested to God to have had us joined at the hip at birth.......

[Guest]

You know, a little while ago I said that you didn't make me feel angry, just sickened. But I was wrong. I realise now that I am angry. At you, and at people like you.

 

I've taught policemen, serving military officers, and government agents, and I feel pretty fucking angry when someone like you, cfici, pisses on my students, who are putting their lives on the line for your worthless excuse for one.

 

Sometimes I feel that the best solution to your incessant whining is to ship all you assholes off to the unjustly oppressed, disenfranchised, poor-as-dirt-because-America-is-rich hellholes you ignorantly idolise, and for which you write ever more absurd apologetics. Why don't we let you have your throats slashed open by maniacs with box-cutters. Why don't you handle rabid fanatics so crazed with hatred that they'll violate all the codes of war by pretending to surrender simply for the opportunity to kill an American by grabbing him while clutching a live grenade. Why don't you take the bullets and the shrapnel. Why don't you try stepping on a landmine, feeling the sand give, and praying to God you don't hear a goddamn click.

 

No fucking loss. Not from where I'm standing.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Ouch.  If that's the way you want to view the world, be my guest.  I'm not afraid of death, Marney, so I try not to worry about any of the shit in your post.  But this cycle of violence must end, so I'm done.  Bring back the serious discussion....

[Guest]

I'm not afraid of death

Stupid young shithead. You're either a liar or a fool.

[Guest Sek]

Marney, don't get too worked up over Chris here, he's the epitome of left-wing thinking: all emotion and no substance. He goes for the heartstrings with tales of woe on the poor people of the world and how anyone who has a pot to piss in somehow owes these people something.  Only problem is that most of these people who wring their hands over the state of world affairs don't do anything to fix it themselves, they just say everyone else should, like a celebrity doing a PSA for a cause that they might believe in but wouldn't get their hands dirty to help.

 

Its obvious that everytime someone confronts Mr. Mask with the utter sanctimony that is the bullshit he posts about, all he can come back with is a "calm down, dude" or some other snarky comment totally ignoring what the person who deconstructed his fairy-tale view of the world said. Case in point, no matter how much he wants to make a joke about the White American Guilt Complex, he can't escape the truth is thats pretty much all his posts are about. Its our fault because we're rich, or its our fault because we live in the US instead of in the ghettos of some Middle Eastern country, as if the location of where we passed thru our mother's vagina automatically burdens us with a sense to help third world nations run by dictators who keep their countries locked in their current state.

 

The bottom line is the vast majority of left wing ideas just simply DON'T WORK, and eventually (hopefully) people will see that. Either that, or we'll become a nation of coddled children who were sheltered from the world who grew up into adults completely unprepared for the harsh realities of life when you can't solve every problem by sitting over an International Coffee and talk about boys with people who believe their God is telling them to wipe Israel off the map.

[Guest]

Cancel all third world debt? You sound as bloody clueless as the goddamn Pope or a rock singer. I know you're stupid, Chris, but I really hope you aren't that stupid.

Why do you say the pope is clueless? ???

[Guest]

On economic policy? I thought it was pretty obvious: because he is. Anyone who wants all third world debt cancelled (or, as the Pope cutely puts it, forgiven) is completely clueless. Bono's another cretin who advocates the same thing. I suppose I really shouldn't have been surprised that cfici does too.

Or did you mean just in general? Well, tell me: is the Pope Catholic?

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<-Let me be a bit clearer.  By saying that the hope of peace lies in Israel's hands, I'm saying that they have the ability right now to bring some type of peaceful resolution to this situation, and your examples presented above show that they are trying to cut off the PLO's head by going after the PLO, instead of targeting innocent civilians to make a point like Hamas.>>>

 

 

Then, they're doing the right thing. Israel has ALWAYS tried to avoid killing innocent civilians.

 

 

<<<-I see your point, though I've never heard Arafat call for the genocide of all Jews, but then again, provide me with a few concrete examples.  This is like me stating that the U.S government has been involved in terrorist activities in the past, and then being too lazy to look up and/or remember any concrete examples. >>>

 

 

The PLO's expressed desire is for the destruction of the state of Israel---which is a cute way of saying "We Want to Kill ALL of the Jews There".

                    -=Mike

[Guest]

The fact is America's record in the Middle East against ordinary Muslims is appualing. Not only do they prop up Israel but they prop up every oppresive Arab dictatorships (with the exception of Iraq since 1990) so the person who said America has thought wars for ordinary Muslims is talking jackshit.

 

The reason why people gave America shit about Human Rights is because unlike the Palenstinians they were claim to fight for all mankind. I don't know about you but I like nice non murderous saviours.

 

I think your all missing the point, Israel is driving people to sucide. Sucide Bombing is the most hopeless desperate act and yes the masterminds behind are assholes and "terrorists" but the actual sucide bombers aren't. They are ordinary people sick of being treated like shit by the "colonial" Israelis. Sharon is trying to humliate Palestine, to destory them something that as I former supporter of Israel I cannot support.

 

Land for peace will work, as it work in normalizing relations between Israel and Egypt and although the Saudi peace plan in its current form is a no starter with modification it could work.

 

Oh yeah and America does still need Arab miltary support for forward bases to attack Iraq.

 

Lots of Love

Will

xxx

[Guest DrTom]

"Sucide Bombing is the most hopeless desperate act and yes the masterminds behind are assholes and "terrorists" but the actual sucide bombers aren't. They are ordinary people sick of being treated like shit by the "colonial" Israelis."

 

What's appalling is that there are so many people so willing to be apologists for the Palestinians.  They deliberately and repeatedly target civilians, they have tried to use ambulances to deliver their bombs, and they have rigged their devices for secondary explosions to maim rescue workers.  Rescue workers, for chrissakes.  If Israel and Sharon are driving them to this end, as you claim, they know where he lives.  They know where he works.  They probably know where he eats breakfast and when he takes a shit.  But they don't go after him, do they?  The Palestinians are interested in wanton violence and death, and nothing more.  Fuck 'em, I say, along with everyone who's stupid enough to think their "cause" has any merit left.

[Guest]

Apologist arguments, especially for creatures as cowardly and vile as suicide bombers, will never find any sympathy with me. There are some things no ethical person does, no matter what the situation. You do not torture people, and you do not wantonly butcher innocent men, women, and children. The instant you do something like that, I don't a damn about your reasons anymore. I don't care about your cause. I don't care if you're oppressed. I don't care what "made" you into what you are. What you are is evil, and you don't talk to evil, you destroy it.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

The fact is America's record in the Middle East against ordinary Muslims is appualing. Not only do they prop up Israel but they prop up every oppresive Arab dictatorships (with the exception of Iraq since 1990) so the person who said America has thought wars for ordinary Muslims is talking jackshit.>>>

 

 

Kuwaitis aren't Muslim?

The Bosnians we helped weren't Muslim?

 

And, uh, hate to break it to you---but oppressive regimes abound in that region whether we support them or not.

 

 

<<<The reason why people gave America shit about Human Rights is because unlike the Palenstinians they were claim to fight for all mankind. I don't know about you but I like nice non murderous saviours.>>>

 

 

Ah, more of the U.S is evil brigade. Nothing if not cliched.

 

 

<<<I think your all missing the point, Israel is driving people to sucide. Sucide Bombing is the most hopeless desperate act and yes the masterminds behind are assholes and "terrorists" but the actual sucide bombers aren't.>>>

 

 

Hate to break it to you, but if they engage in the activity, they are terrorists. It's not like they are having the bombs strapped to them against their will.

 

 

<<<They are ordinary people sick of being treated like shit by the "colonial" Israelis.>>>

 

 

Ah, better to be treated poorly by a government of Muslims where you may ALSO get the joy of possible starvation. Got it.

 

 

<<<Sharon is trying to humliate Palestine, to destory them something that as I former supporter of Israel I cannot support.>>>

 

 

He isn't trying to humiliate Palestine. Palestinians are doing that to themselves with gusto. And, in case you've missed it, Israel has actually been working hard to minimize civilian casualties.

 

 

<<<Land for peace will work, as it work in normalizing relations between Israel and Egypt and although the Saudi peace plan in its current form is a no starter with modification it could work.>>>

 

 

Land for peace was tried. Arafat refused to negotiate.

 

 

<<<Oh yeah and America does still need Arab miltary support for forward bases to attack Iraq.>>>

 

 

Nope.

 

Having Turkish support is plenty.

                            -=Mike

[Guest]

There is no doubt (or I hope there isn't) that Sucide is a hopeless act. Sucide is a sign that a person has nothing left to live for, they have no hope and feel that they have no future.

 

Now a sucide bomber may be a terrorist but s/he is still commiting sucide. It is quite possible to run a terrorist campagin without resorting to Sucide Bombings (see IRA) and be successful, granted sucide bombings can be deadly however they far less efficent.

 

Israel doesn't try to minimaize civilain casualities as its quite happy to go into refuge camps and shot on those throwing stones, etc.

 

More importantly it won't work. Israel is making the same mistake when it trained Hamas up to replace the (secular)PLO. So you kill Arfat, then what happens? Hamas take over with no chance of comprimse. All excepts of the miltary are against Sharon's reckless actions which are fueled by personal haterd of Arfat. The Israeli parliament has refuse to sanction the call up of the resevrists for the love of God there is a peace movement inside the Israeli army!!!

 

I believe in the right of Jews to a homeland, just as I believe in the right of the Palenstinans to have a homeland. Before Sharon got in so the Jews, they were unquestionably the good guys (Leabon campagin withstanding) having repeatedly try to make peace with Palenstinans. Now they've sunk to the level of the terrorists and in so doing fallen for there trap. Terrorists don't try and beat the miltary but they try and make them overreact either leading to a wider public rising your the internaliztion of the conflict. Sharon is causing both.

 

The Arab plan is a non-starter with its demand for right of return to places within 1948 Israel, a move designed to spell the end of Israel as a Jewish country. A proper peace plan would be as follows (see we left wingers can think up proper plans):

 

1) Palenstine gets all of the West Bank excluding Jerusalem, while Gaza is returned to Egypt.

2) Palenstine is ruled under EU/ Arab League mandate for Five years as terrorist organistations are broke and reconstruction takes place. National Democarcy returns on an number of issues in three years while Local returns after two.

3) No right of return but international compensation not only to the Palenstinan refugees but also the Jewish settlers.

4) All Arab countries stop anti-semtic/zionist propaganda in schools and on state televison. They acknowledge the Holocaust and the holyness of Jerusalem to Jews

5) Jersualem is a city state similar to the Vatican.

6) Israel must cut its defence spending while the Palenstinans will be a demiltarised nation (similar to Japan) with defence provided by the European Rapid Reacton Force and the Arab League.

7) There will be a Truth and Reconcilation Comission on the whole Arab-Israeli conflict and there will also be a prisioner release program.

8) Both Israel and Palenstine are invited to join the EU

 

Now I acknowledge it would be difficult to make the parties accept these princilbles if America, the EU and the UN speak with one voice (and thearten to cut aid) I think we'll get there.

 

Anyway Libaray's closing so I've got to go.

 

Lots of Love

Will

xxxx

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<There is no doubt (or I hope there isn't) that Sucide is a hopeless act. Sucide is a sign that a person has nothing left to live for, they have no hope and feel that they have no future.

 

Now a sucide bomber may be a terrorist but s/he is still commiting sucide. It is quite possible to run a terrorist campagin without resorting to Sucide Bombings (see IRA) and be successful, granted sucide bombings can be deadly however they far less efficent.>>>

 

 

True--but one can commit suicide without killing others. They can also commit suicide without having SECOND explosives designed to kill rescue workers.

 

The fact that they do both of these make them terrorists, not sad people.

 

<<<Israel doesn't try to minimaize civilain casualities as its quite happy to go into refuge camps and shot on those throwing stones, etc. >>>

 

 

When they launch an attack, you can explain the target.

 

 

<<<More importantly it won't work. Israel is making the same mistake when it trained Hamas up to replace the (secular)PLO. So you kill Arfat, then what happens? Hamas take over with no chance of comprimse.>>>

 

 

I doubt switching Arafat with Hamas will be a huge difference, considering that the PLO basically controls Hamas. I doubt Israel will have a WORSE deal with Hamas.

 

 

<<<All excepts of the miltary are against Sharon's reckless actions which are fueled by personal haterd of Arfat. The Israeli parliament has refuse to sanction the call up of the resevrists for the love of God there is a peace movement inside the Israeli army!!!>>>

 

 

Why is Sharon in power?

 

Because Barak tried to negotiate peace and Arafat refused. Thus, the Israeli public (which is the group that matters) decided that the liberal policy of trading land for peace, while strong on paper, doesn't work in reality.

 

<<<I believe in the right of Jews to a homeland, just as I believe in the right of the Palenstinans to have a homeland. Before Sharon got in so the Jews, they were unquestionably the good guys (Leabon campagin withstanding) having repeatedly try to make peace with Palenstinans. Now they've sunk to the level of the terrorists and in so doing fallen for there trap. Terrorists don't try and beat the miltary but they try and make them overreact either leading to a wider public rising your the internaliztion of the conflict. Sharon is causing both.>>>

 

 

When a country is attacked repeatedly and with no just cause, retaliation is a sad necessity.

 

 

<<<The Arab plan is a non-starter with its demand for right of return to places within 1948 Israel, a move designed to spell the end of Israel as a Jewish country. A proper peace plan would be as follows (see we left wingers can think up proper plans):

 

1) Palenstine gets all of the West Bank excluding Jerusalem, while Gaza is returned to Egypt.>>>

 

 

Disagree about Gaza. And, I wouldn't give Palestine one inch of land until there is one full year without suicide bombings.

 

<<<2) Palenstine is ruled under EU/ Arab League mandate for Five years as terrorist organistations are broke and reconstruction takes place. National Democarcy returns on an number of issues in three years while Local returns after two.>>>

 

 

A nice idea, but Arafat will never agree to it. He's not exactly pro-democracy.

 

 

<<<3) No right of return but international compensation not only to the Palenstinan refugees but also the Jewish settlers.>>>

 

 

I like the idea.

 

 

<<<4) All Arab countries stop anti-semtic/zionist propaganda in schools and on state televison. They acknowledge the Holocaust and the holyness of Jerusalem to Jews>>>

 

 

These states deny they do it, even though MEMRI.org has translations of their newspapers that show it. A terrific IDEA, but not one that I think is feasible.

 

 

<<<5) Jersualem is a city state similar to the Vatican.>>>

 

 

Fully agreed.

 

 

<<<6) Israel must cut its defence spending while the Palenstinans will be a demiltarised nation (similar to Japan) with defence provided by the European Rapid Reacton Force and the Arab League.>>>

 

 

Absolutely not. Even without Palestine, Israel is STILL surrounded by countries that long for their demise. If I were Israel, there is no way I could trust the Arab League and Europeans aren't exactly good about standing up for their allies when it might cost them a little pain.

 

 

<<<7) There will be a Truth and Reconcilation Comission on the whole Arab-Israeli conflict and there will also be a prisioner release program. >>>

 

 

I disagree with the Truth & Reconciliation Commission as they tend to become glorified witch hunts.

 

 

<<<8) Both Israel and Palenstine are invited to join the EU>>>

 

 

The EU won't accept Turkey. No way they'd accept Palestine. They might accept Israel due to Israeli's competent economy and government.

 

 

<<<Now I acknowledge it would be difficult to make the parties accept these princilbles if America, the EU and the UN speak with one voice (and thearten to cut aid) I think we'll get there.>>>

 

 

I don't think it's possible, honestly.

 

 

<<<Anyway Libaray's closing so I've got to go.>>>

 

 

Well, while I tend to disagree with you, most of your ideas are quite solid here. I just don't think that they will work.

                       -=Mike

[Guest muzanisa]

Interesting to see some people saying that the IRA should provide the model for Palestinan resistance.

What are the views of you people on the IRA or the ANC?

Israel under international law is illegally occupying land. Neutral observers have reported strip searches,beatings, refusal of medical attention and ignoring basic human rights in these areas.

If you think a crack down, more military action and greater repression is going to solve the problem of terrorist attacks in the long term then I think you need to study history more.

[Guest]

True--but one can commit suicide without killing others. They can also commit suicide without having SECOND explosives designed to kill rescue workers.

 

 

The fact that they do both of these make them terrorists, not sad people.

 

All they've got left in their left is a haterd of Israel, surely you can see that Israel must be partly responsible for a whole people hating them.

 

 

Why is Sharon in power?

 

 

Because Barak tried to negotiate peace and Arafat refused. Thus, the Israeli public (which is the group that matters) decided that the liberal policy of trading land for peace, while strong on paper, doesn't work in reality.

 

Sharon is in power because of a PR system that doesn't swallow extrermist parties into broad umbrella groups and an absence of a intellgista or a body poltic that keeps nutters like him in the pub.

 

The problem with democracy is that left unchecked it turn into mob rule, which is the unfortunate state Israel in.

 

 

I doubt switching Arafat with Hamas will be a huge difference, considering that the PLO basically controls Hamas. I doubt Israel will have a WORSE deal with Hamas.

 

 

Hamas is an Islamist organistation that calls for the destruction of Israel. The PLO is a secular oragnistatkion that calls for an independent Palestine. I know which one I want leading the Palestine movement.

 

 

When a country is attacked repeatedly and with no just cause, retaliation is a sad necessity.

 

 

It can be done far better than how Israel is going about it. The British had a 30 year "war" with the IRA but kept the support of the vast marjoity of Catholics after the memories of Bloody Sunday subsided. Indeed by 1993 the IRA sent a memondraum telling Catholics not to inform to the RUC.

 

]) Palenstine gets all of the West Bank excluding Jerusalem, while Gaza is returned to Egypt.>>>

 

 

[quote)Disagree about Gaza. And, I wouldn't give Palestine one inch of land until there is one full year without suicide bombings.

 

 

Come on you know that's never going to happen.

 

 

<<<2) Palenstine is ruled under EU/ Arab League mandate for Five years as terrorist organistations are broke and reconstruction takes place. National Democarcy returns on an number of issues in three years while Local returns after two.>>>

 

 

A nice idea, but Arafat will never agree to it. He's not exactly pro-democracy.

 

 

Arafat's not important, indeed I wouldn't made seeing him stand trial on corruption chatrges. The point of the 5 year manadate is to allow demorcatic/ moderate alternatives to become apparent.

 

 

]<<<4) All Arab countries stop anti-semtic/zionist propaganda in schools and on state televison. They acknowledge the Holocaust and the holyness of Jerusalem to Jews>>>

 

These states deny they do it, even though MEMRI.org has translations of their newspapers that show it. A terrific IDEA, but not one that I think is feasible.

 

 

You'd probably have to accompy it with a bribe in the form of aid. Which would be no bad thing if it concerntrated on job creation as it would leave less unemployed men to be snared by Islamist organisation

 

 

<<<6) Israel must cut its defence spending while the Palenstinans will be a demiltarised nation (similar to Japan) with defence provided by the European Rapid Reacton Force and the Arab League.>>>

 

 

Absolutely not. Even without Palestine, Israel is STILL surrounded by countries that long for their demise. If I were Israel, there is no way I could trust the Arab League and Europeans aren't exactly good about standing up for their allies when it might cost them a little pain.

 

Fare point about the Arab countries and I was talking over sat a 10-20 year period where hopefully relations will be normalised. The point about Europe is a bit unfair seeing as the EU has been at the forefront of the peacekeeping campagins in the Balkans and Afghanistan. Although I'd probably give Britian the lead role as it has a pro-zionst past but has good Arab links.

 

 

<<<7) There will be a Truth and Reconcilation Comission on the whole Arab-Israeli conflict and there will also be a prisioner release program. >>>

 

 

I disagree with the Truth & Reconciliation Commission as they tend to become glorified witch hunts.

 

 

Agreed but there far less unplatable than seeing Irsaeli soldiers being tried for War Crimes.

 

 

<<<8) Both Israel and Palenstine are invited to join the EU>>>

 

 

The EU won't accept Turkey. No way they'd accept Palestine. They might accept Israel due to Israeli's competent economy and government.

 

 

The EU won't accept Turkey because

 

a) Greece hates Turkey

b) Turkey still has a few porblems with Human Rights

c) At current population growth rates within 20 years Turkey will have a larger population than Germany making it the most poerful single nation in the EU (as measured by Council of Minsters votes)

 

I don't see them having a problem with an EU reared Palenstine being a member although will definetly have problems with Israel due to its use of the death penalty/ tortue and the fact it is seen as an America satiallete.

 

 

<<<Now I acknowledge it would be difficult to make the parties accept these princilbles if America, the EU and the UN speak with one voice (and thearten to cut aid) I think we'll get there.>>>

 

 

I don't think it's possible, honestly.

 

Probably right but its alot more feasible than the idea that you can bomb a people into submission.

 

 

Interesting to see some people saying that the IRA should provide the model for Palestinan resistance.

What are the views of you people on the IRA or the ANC?

Israel under international law is illegally occupying land. Neutral observers have reported strip searches,beatings, refusal of medical attention and ignoring basic human rights in these areas.

If you think a crack down, more military action and greater repression is going to solve the problem of terrorist attacks in the long term then I think you need to study history more.

 

 

Agreed. No crackdown on terrorism ever works because tbat's exactly what the terrorists want to happen. Ever increasing escaltion. On other terrorist organistation you have to luck at three things:

 

a) Are they with the marjoity of the population

b) Are they fighting an oppresive regime

c) Do they hit just miltary targets and make sure not kill innocent civilans.

 

If an organistion gets a) and onbe of the other two out of three than its "alright" and their freedom fighters, for example the IRA gets no on all counts.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Sharon is in power because of a PR system that doesn't swallow extrermist parties into broad umbrella groups and an absence of a intellgista or a body poltic that keeps nutters like him in the pub.

 

The problem with democracy is that left unchecked it turn into mob rule, which is the unfortunate state Israel in. >>>

 

 

That might be the case---but none of us can appreciate Israel's position. Try and imagine to live in a world where your neighbors have an expressed goal of the demise of your country. Imagine a situation where you have to live in constant, never-ending mortal terror over people attacking you every day.

 

It's not a happy prospect.

 

And, while democracy CAN lead to mob rule, it is still preferrable to the authoritarian regimes that the rest of the Middle East is. I'd rather have the people support violence than have them be forced to accept whatever consequences their government's actions cause.

 

 

<<<Hamas is an Islamist organistation that calls for the destruction of Israel. The PLO is a secular oragnistatkion that calls for an independent Palestine. I know which one I want leading the Palestine movement.>>>

 

 

The words of the PLO are irrelevant when measured against their actions. Hamas and the PLO want the same thing.

 

 

<<<It can be done far better than how Israel is going about it. The British had a 30 year "war" with the IRA but kept the support of the vast marjoity of Catholics after the memories of Bloody Sunday subsided. Indeed by 1993 the IRA sent a memondraum telling Catholics not to inform to the RUC.>>>

 

 

Israel is incapable of having the support of the Muslims because all of the media in those countries are completely run by the government, so the people only hear one side of the story. I'm sure they'd like the support of the Muslims in the area, but it's a goal that will never happen.

 

 

<<<]) Palenstine gets all of the West Bank excluding Jerusalem, while Gaza is returned to Egypt.>>>

 

 

[quote)Disagree about Gaza. And, I wouldn't give Palestine one inch of land until there is one full year without suicide bombings.

 

 

Come on you know that's never going to happen.>>>

 

 

You're right, it probably won't. However, that wouldn't change my position. Until the Palestinians can show the ability to not attack Israel constantly, I would not give them one inch of land.

 

 

<<<2) Palenstine is ruled under EU/ Arab League mandate for Five years as terrorist organistations are broke and reconstruction takes place. National Democarcy returns on an number of issues in three years while Local returns after two.>>>

 

 

A nice idea, but Arafat will never agree to it. He's not exactly pro-democracy.

 

 

Arafat's not important, indeed I wouldn't made seeing him stand trial on corruption chatrges. The point of the 5 year manadate is to allow demorcatic/ moderate alternatives to become apparent.>>>

 

 

The only problem is that most of the Middle Eastern countries don't even have the means of handling democratic rule, presently. It is disastrous to give people democracy when they're quite incapable of handling it. It would lead to what happened in Germany starting in the lae 1920's. Extremist groups would play up to those who only know "the good ol' days" or to the people who hate that group. Thus, government would be completey handcuffed due to an inability of the two groups to work together.

 

 

]<<<4) All Arab countries stop anti-semtic/zionist propaganda in schools and on state televison. They acknowledge the Holocaust and the holyness of Jerusalem to Jews>>>

 

Quote  

These states deny they do it, even though MEMRI.org has translations of their newspapers that show it. A terrific IDEA, but not one that I think is feasible.

 

 

You'd probably have to accompy it with a bribe in the form of aid. Which would be no bad thing if it concerntrated on job creation as it would leave less unemployed men to be snared by Islamist organisation >>>

 

 

We give them aid regularly. We give Egypt almost as much as we give Israel and they STILL have some unspeakably anti-Semitic stuff in their papers (such as the 3/10 story about Jews needing the blood of children to make pastries). We give aid to a lot of these countries and it doesn't really make a difference.

 

And, since the Islamic extremist organizations in the region tend to have a lot of pull with the government, any money we give won't go to the people.

 

 

<<<6) Israel must cut its defence spending while the Palenstinans will be a demiltarised nation (similar to Japan) with defence provided by the European Rapid Reacton Force and the Arab League.>>>

 

 

Absolutely not. Even without Palestine, Israel is STILL surrounded by countries that long for their demise. If I were Israel, there is no way I could trust the Arab League and Europeans aren't exactly good about standing up for their allies when it might cost them a little pain.

 

Fare point about the Arab countries and I was talking over sat a 10-20 year period where hopefully relations will be normalised. The point about Europe is a bit unfair seeing as the EU has been at the forefront of the peacekeeping campagins in the Balkans and Afghanistan. Although I'd probably give Britian the lead role as it has a pro-zionst past but has good Arab links.>>>

 

 

The EU didn't want to enter the Balkans whatsoever. It took us to get them to do it.

 

As for the Arab League, it's not whether relations can be normalized---a great many (heck, I'll go ahead and say it---most) Muslims in that region just hate Israel and Judaism. Even if the countries normalize relations, it won't change much.

 

Egypt and Israel have had relations for a while now---Egypt still hates Israel and is very anti-Semitic.

 

 

<<<7) There will be a Truth and Reconcilation Comission on the whole Arab-Israeli conflict and there will also be a prisioner release program. >>>

 

 

I disagree with the Truth & Reconciliation Commission as they tend to become glorified witch hunts.

 

 

Agreed but there far less unplatable than seeing Irsaeli soldiers being tried for War Crimes.>>>

 

 

I don't want to see Israeli soldiers tried for anything. And, since Hamas has a very loose structure, nobody in charge of that group could be tried without major problems in terms of evidence.

 

 

<<<8) Both Israel and Palenstine are invited to join the EU>>>

 

 

The EU won't accept Turkey. No way they'd accept Palestine. They might accept Israel due to Israeli's competent economy and government.

 

 

The EU won't accept Turkey because >>>

 

a) Greece hates Turkey

b) Turkey still has a few porblems with Human Rights

c) At current population growth rates within 20 years Turkey will have a larger population than Germany making it the most poerful single nation in the EU (as measured by Council of Minsters votes)>>>

 

 

Turkey is the only Muslim country that the west has any ability to negotiate with presently. Are they saints? Absolutely not.

 

However, I still doubt the EU will even last 20 years, so it might be moot.

 

 

<<<I don't see them having a problem with an EU reared Palenstine being a member although will definetly have problems with Israel due to its use of the death penalty/ tortue and the fact it is seen as an America satiallete.>>>

 

 

Palestine is so far behind the EU in almost every conceivable category that they wouldn't make terribly useful members of the group. However, the French would probably support it just to annoy us. :-)

 

<<<Now I acknowledge it would be difficult to make the parties accept these princilbles if America, the EU and the UN speak with one voice (and thearten to cut aid) I think we'll get there.>>>

 

 

I don't think it's possible, honestly.

 

Probably right but its alot more feasible than the idea that you can bomb a people into submission.>>>

 

 

Neither way seems like a terribly good road to travel---but I would have more faith in bombing people so much that they turn against their government than in expecting the EU and the U.S to work in concert to do much of anything.

 

 

<<<

Interesting to see some people saying that the IRA should provide the model for Palestinan resistance.

What are the views of you people on the IRA or the ANC?

 

Israel under international law is illegally occupying land. Neutral observers have reported strip searches,beatings, refusal of medical attention and ignoring basic human rights in these areas.

If you think a crack down, more military action and greater repression is going to solve the problem of terrorist attacks in the long term then I think you need to study history more.>>>

 

 

Well, any recent refusal of medical attention is definitely warranted.

 

 

<<<Agreed. No crackdown on terrorism ever works because tbat's exactly what the terrorists want to happen. Ever increasing escaltion. On other terrorist organistation you have to luck at three things:

 

a) Are they with the marjoity of the population

b) Are they fighting an oppresive regime

c) Do they hit just miltary targets and make sure not kill innocent civilans.

 

If an organistion gets a) and onbe of the other two out of three than its "alright" and their freedom fighters, for example the IRA gets no on all counts. >>>

 

 

I don't claim to understand the IRA/United Kingdom situation, so I won't comment.

 

However, I will say that it is nice to disuss issues with you, Mr. Cooling. May not agree with you on much, but I highly respect your ability to back up your beliefs.

                      -=Mike

[Guest muzanisa]

Well, any recent refusal of medical attention is definitely warranted.

 

The medical attention I was referring to was turning away pregnant Women from Hospital.

 

Fair enough you don't want to comment on Northern Ireland, but what are your thoughts on the ANC in Apartheid South Africa? They were a socialist group who used terrorist tactics against their opponents whose leader could have been realeased from jail much earlier if he had renounced violence.

 

There seems to be a lot of revulsion at suicide bombers. Apart from the different social backgrounds that make suicide bombing an option in Islamic culture, why is it worse to blow yourself up than to park a car laden with explosive outside a cafe walk away and have the option of doing it again?

 

Having spoken to Jewish people (some from Israel) and Muslims (but never a Palestinian) on the topic I've come to the conclusion that both sides are indoctrinated against hearing the other point of view.

Which is a shame because while both sides are going they have to do this before we do this; innocent civilians are the ones who are dying and hearts are hardening on both sides.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Quote  

Well, any recent refusal of medical attention is definitely warranted.

 

 

The medical attention I was referring to was turning away pregnant Women from Hospital.>>>

 

 

I, honestly, know nothing of this. I won't pretend to know about it, so I'm really not qualified to discuss it. I assumed you meant on-site paramedical work, which is a concern since Palestinians have started triggering their bombs with secondary bombs to kill the rescue workers.

 

 

<<<Fair enough you don't want to comment on Northern Ireland, but what are your thoughts on the ANC in Apartheid South Africa? They were a socialist group who used terrorist tactics against their opponents whose leader could have been realeased from jail much earlier if he had renounced violence.>>>

 

 

Their actions were wrong. Plain and simple. Killing of innocents, no matter what the reason behind it is, is an act of pure evil.

 

 

<<<There seems to be a lot of revulsion at suicide bombers. Apart from the different social backgrounds that make suicide bombing an option in Islamic culture, why is it worse to blow yourself up than to park a car laden with explosive outside a cafe walk away and have the option of doing it again?>>>

 

 

It's not worse. They are equally bad.

 

 

<<<Having spoken to Jewish people (some from Israel) and Muslims (but never a Palestinian) on the topic I've come to the conclusion that both sides are indoctrinated against hearing the other point of view. >>>

 

 

I have no doubt. I can more easily appreciate Israel's point of view as they are having their civilians being targeted by people who have stated, for decades now, that they desire the elimination of the state and that all Jews are evil. Israel isn't targeting Palestinians civilians and that, to me, makes Israel the moral superior.

 

 

<<<Which is a shame because while both sides are going they have to do this before we do this; innocent civilians are the ones who are dying and hearts are hardening on both sides. >>>

 

 

We might need to face up to the fact that this might never get better.

 

The Middle East isn't known for being a terribly peaceful place.

             -=Mike

[Guest Vern Gagne]

What's really bothering me is the 250 or so Palestinian gunmen inside the church of the Nativity. This is one of holiest sites in Christianity. One of the monks inside says the gunmen forced their way inside. It wouldn't suprise me if they've threatened the clergy inside. Hey, these people don't exactly like Christians either.

 

Naturally the Palestinians claim the Isreali's shot open the door. Isreal denies this. I believe Isreal, the Palestinians who are attacking Isreal don't exactly like Christianity either. They seem like they would have no problem shooting up the birth place of Jesus.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

What's really bothering me is the 250 or so Palestinian gunmen inside the church of the Nativity. This is one of holiest sites in Christianity. One of the monks inside says the gunmen forced their way inside. It wouldn't suprise me if they've threatened the clergy inside. Hey, these people don't exactly like Christians either.

 

Naturally the Palestinians claim the Isreali's shot open the door. Isreal denies this. I believe Isreal, the Palestinians who are attacking Isreal don't exactly like Christianity either. They seem like they would have no problem shooting up the birth place of Jesus. >>>

 

 

Agreed, Palestinians using that church a part of their campaign is offensive beyond measure. It'd be about as bad as somebody using the holy Mecca as a staging ground for an attack on somebody.

 

Hard to sympathize with people who use holy places such as he Church of the Nativity.

            -=Mike

[Guest DrTom]

"Hard to sympathize with people who use holy places such as he Church of the Nativity."

 

I think the Palestinians are pond scum, and I hate what they're doing, but I don't give two pins about the Church of the Nativity.  Maybe it's the atheist in me, but whether they're hijacking a "significant" church or an ice cream shop, I don't approve of their reprehensible methods and tactics.

[Guest]

Okay let's get this straight all terrorism is bad no matter what cause it's for?

 

Okay tell that to the Zionist Terrorist who bombed the British from their mandate in Palenstine.

 

<I think the Palestinians are pond scum>

 

Nice to see your keeping an open mind and avoiding racist genralisations Dr. Tom. Not all Palenstinains are sucide bombers nor are all Muslims.

 

<I don't give two pins about the Church of the Nativity>

 

As a fellow athesit myself the one thing I can't stand is extreme, fundamentlist, reactionary atheism. Jesus whether you believe he was the Son of God or not, is the most important phyisolpher ever and a man who is of vast importance to the three major monoetheist religions.

 

<Their actions were wrong. Plain and simple. Killing of innocents, no matter what the reason behind it is, is an act of pure evil.>

 

Sorry Mike but this shows naviety. What about Hirosama, Nagisaki and all the bombs dropped on Germany and Japan during WW2? Does this mean FDR and Churchill are evil?

The reason we excused these acts of "evil" (man I hate that word) was because that it was for a good cause, national survivual and that there was no other way.

Well on these justifications surely this (from the terrorist perspective) covers all major terrorist campagins espeacilly the "Palenstinian" one.

 

Lots of Love

Will

xxx

[Guest DragonflyKid]

"Your basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." -Yasir Arafat(On going to war over religion)

 

Just thought that was funny.