I admit it.

[Guest JericholicEdgeHead]

Well I became a wrestling fan in the 80's so I guess I don't see what's so wrong about basic matwork and some chinlocks.

 

I thought that match was a nice change of pace from just "spot" wrestling and punch-kick-punch-kick for 2 minutes which has become the typical WWe style since the "Attitude era".

 

Even the classic Flair vs. Steamboat matches had chinlocks.

 

I'm not trying to put anyone here down, but what does everyone look for in a good match?? And a free TV match at that??

[Guest wildpegasus]

Benoit using the headbutt is okay. Look at it like this. A normal match where he uses it is okay. Right? Well in the normal match it's guaranteed he's going to hurt himself with the headbutt. So why do it? Because Benoit wants to win the match and he's going to take that necessary risk to win. If he has that mentality normally why would he not hit the headbutt if his neck was worked on in say a different match? His mentality dictates that he's going to hit his headbutt no matter what! Even in you disagree with Benoit hitting the headbutt in the Benoit/Rhyno match you have to admit that Benoit's neck wasn't worked over too bad when he did actually hit the headbutt.

[Cherry Blossom Viscount 0]

Great way to cover for a sub-par match from two smark darlings. If say, A-Train and Show had a match that sucked, it would have just sucked, but Benoit and Rhyno have a bad match and the blame ranges from Rhyno to the fans to JR to the company. Give me a break! If Benoit can take part in dragging good matches out of people, why can't he also be blamed for doing his part in making this a bad match? Not everyone is on 100% of the time. Benoit is NOT GOD. He's a man that isn't going to be able to please you everytime out. Except that, say it was a bad match and move on.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Benoit was the face in this match. Your control of the match is limited from this posistion! not to mention the other limits put on Benoit. Plus the match was legit good.

 

As for A-Train and Big Show-I'm fans of them

[Cherry Blossom Viscount 0]

Well A-Train and Show fans are a rare breed, that's why I used them.

 

Okay, well let me say this then. I remember when A-Train and Benoit had a series of matches earlier this spring, people were saying Benoit dragged a good match out of him. But wait! His position was limited as the face! A-Train was the heel! Do you mean to tell me all of these super smarky smarks were wrong and that A-Train may have *gasp* contributed to the match and Benoit WASN'T controlling him like a puppet? Whoa whoa. I need to sit down. This is toooooooo much info for my mark mind.

 

*Deep breath*

 

Okay, so YOU'RE saying that Benoit CAN'T drag a good match out of everyone because sometimes he may be limited and they have to pull their own weight? Are you saying some classic matches that Benoit was involved in had to do with the work of the OTHER GUY and not just Benoit? Wow. I'm going to have to lay down after this one.

 

P.S. the sarcasm wasn't directed at you. More at the IWC in general for that lame ideal.

[Guest Goodear]

Goodear, what's wrong with Benoit using the headbutt after having the neck worked on? The thing is, Benoit always used the headbutt even though it hurts him. He doesn't care-that's his mentality.He wants to win the match so he's not going to care if his neck has been worked on before doing it. If Benoit didn't do the headbutt that would be against his charactor.

 

The problem is that once you get your neck worked on, it should simply hurt more to drop a headbutt from the top rope. But Benoit has lately been simply shaking off the impact without taking into account the previous action in the match. It's like when RVD flawlessly jumps to the top rope after leg work but less obvious.

 

Billy Gunn was not selling better than Benoit last night. End of story.

 

Hey I'm as shocked as anyone, but Billy sold the leg even after the match was over and Benoit didn't sell the second he had escaped. How you can say the opposite makes no sense to me.

 

As for making a rally after being caught in the chinlocks-Every WWE match has the face coming back after being beaten down by the heel. That's been the formula since forever!

 

The comeback isn't the problem the problem is that just last night you saw Kurt Angle, Eddie Guerrero, Brock, and Billy all make comebacks while selling the damage that they had taken earily in a match. Benoit didn't bother.

 

Two other things:When you're the heel you control the match more. Faces don't have as much control over a match when they're wrestling. This match would work a lot better if the heel/face scenario was reversed.

 

But to think that Benoit didn't have any control the pace of the matwork is crazy. He's the one who has to make the move to fight out of the thing and has plently of opportunity to tell Rhyno to pick up the tempo. It's not like Rhyno is going to argue or anything.

 

For anyone who thought this match sucked what are you watching for? This was a legit good match. It wasn't great but it was certainly enjoyable. All of you guys just seem to take any opportunity you can get to diss someone even when it's not justifiable. Does it make you feel important or something? Maybe you guys should just pick up bowling. Hey, it's fun.

 

Legit good match seems to be up for debate and I think those of us who say, "Nope" have put up our side of the argument as well as we can (slow matwork that didn't do anywhere + little to no selling) ... what was good about it other than Benoit was in it? And don't try to tell me I hate everything... its silly.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Sarcasm noted: Responding to FBP comments-How do you use quotes on this board?

 

I was actually defending A-Train on the board a couple weeks ago. He did very well in his matches against Benoit. Big Show held definitely held his own too.

 

As a face, I'm not sure if he can drag a good match out of anyone. Maybe if he scripted the match beforehand but I believe Benoit's a big fan of using instinct instead. As a heel though, he just might be able to.

 

Benoit usually dictates the flow of a match traditionally throughout his career. In Stampede where Benoit was a face though Johnny Smith who is vastly underrated did a great job in their bouts.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Since I don't know how to use quotes:

 

First Part of Goodear's debate

 

We obviously disagree on the headbutt. Chinlocks aren't exactly neck killing manuevers. Rhyno didn't exactly kill Benoit's neck.

 

Billy Gunn selling:I really want to watch his match again to make a fairer judgement. Benoit's facial expression and body language after being hit strike me as more realistic than Billy Gunn's selling.

 

3rd arguement: Can you elaborate on Benoit not selling the damage further? Are you talking about the neck?

 

4th arguement: Benoit's a fan of instinct in his bouts for the most part. This was the beat down the face part of the match. It's up to Rhyno to select what moves to use. It seemed like Rhyno had a limited moveset here. I noticed him relying on the chinlock in the Benoit/Rhyno vs Guerreros bout as well.

 

What was good about the match?

1)Benoit's crispness, explosion of his moves. He was putting much effort into everything. I thought his preformance was smart.

 

2)Rhyno's hard hitting moves

 

3)Exciting conclusion to the match. I thought the spot where Rhyno ddted Benoit close to the end was a smart one.

 

I never said you hated everything. Even against the standards of All Japan Pro Wrestling in the 90's I wouldn't call this match bad so I don't see how other people can be doing so. All I said was there seemed to be a general consensus on this board to jump on someone's back at the first moment possable when it's not justifiable. I stick to that statement although it may not pretain to you specifically.

[J.B. Buzzkill 0]

I thought it was a decent match, but the 4 chinlocks killed it for me.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

insertlinehere take out star[*/QUOTE]

 

Or you can do what I do and bold your own response after C/P'ing theirs.

 

I don't see how a chinlock effects the neck - especially the one Rhyno did, which put very little pressure on Benoit and was more like a wear down hold, rather than a targeted attack.

 

When Benoit finally got out of it and was going up to the top, he was jacked. This isn't uncommon - Heath Herring did it against Mark Kerr at Pride15. Kerr had Herring down for the majority of the match, when the Ref stood it up Herring was looking for the kill because he spent all that time doing nothing in the guard.

 

I don't see how Benoit actively made the match bad - he let Rhyno do most of the work because the match was supposed to get Rhyno over. My only problem with it, aside from the chinlock spots, was that they didn't sustain the crowd after the headbut - the crowd was INTO it by the end there, but they cut Benoits offense off too soon.

[Cherry Blossom Viscount 0]

Get Rhyno over as what; a technical wrestler? No one wants to see that. People want to see Rhyno bash, Rhyno GORE GORE GORE! They wanted to see Rhyno go crazy and gore Benoit into a steel post or something, gore him off the stop of the stage. I don't think anyone expects Rhyno to bust out chinlocks, yet he did.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Benoit has always shown himself to be game for bumping. He did it with Albert and Albert busted out some cool shit. He did it with Benjamin and Haas and they shined too (Benjamin moreso). Rhyno's biggest moves were a spinebuster and DDT. I think he was told to work that "old school" style and to "tell a story" - which means "slow it down, and work the restholds" (geez, how many chinlocks were used on Smackdown? Seemed like one in every match). With the way they've been booking Rhyno and Benoit, they wouldn't have let them use a table spot.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

How were the chinlocks contributing to the match at all. They were lazy restholds because Rhyno didn't know what else to do.

"Well hell I don't have any other moves, time to hit a chinlock"

And Benoit's been pushed around and buried so much that he probably thought

"Why try? It won't get noticed anyways. I'll lay here and let him fuck it up."

See Benoit's just not trying anymore.

[Guest Choken One]

why can't we just say

 

"Two good wrestlers had an Off Night"

 

it won't be the first time it happened...

 

We don't need to make excuses or blame Vince for the sake of blaming vince...

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I don't see how it was an "off night" - they didn't blow any spots, the match wasn't bad or anything, and the crowd was into it by the end. All they did was work a spot way too long. Benoit was still crisp, so I don't see how he was 'unmotivated' or 'demoralized' - he just didn't get in a whole lot of offense.

 

Story of the Match: Rhyno neutralizes Benoit with the Chinlock. Every time Benoit makes a break Rhyno cuts him off. Rinse and Repeat. Benoit is unable to get going. Benoit finally is able to counter a clothesline into a crossface for the quick win. The WWE has done this before, but it's mainly in Tag matches. It's delaying gratification.

 

The problem with this match was that the delay was just a chinlock - and that's lame. And the gratification wasn't long enough.

[Guest Choken One]

Ok BY off night I meant

 

"They didn't have that good of a match as they normaly would have"

 

Like Perfect/HBK slam 1993 was good but it was an off night.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

But that indicates a problem with the performance - the problem, IMO, was with the lay out of the match and the booking of each character.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

whoops, wrong thread

Edited June 20, 2003 by RavishingRickRudo

[Guest Choken One]

Why do you go to hell and back to defend Benoit when he doesn't have a *great* match...Face it...He and Rhyno weren't feeling it and the match wasn't as good as it could've been and dont fucking blame the *Match Layout"...

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Well I don't believe in explaining things with "it was an off-night". That takes very little thought. And the lay-out was shit. They started the match with a promo from Steph. The heel and face role was not clearly identified - thus confusing the crowd. The basis of the match was Rhyno controlling Benoit with a chinlock with Benoit finally gaining control with the crossface for the win. That's pure booking. I'm not 'going to hell and back' to defend Benoit, it's all clear if you look at the match. Not just say "bad match, off night".

[Guest TheHulkster]

I think that the need for every hold to punish the limbs is a very limiting flaw in the WWE style. I'm not saying that isn't applied well sometimes, but the need for it to be an important factor in every match that the WWE has hurts some matches more than it helps. Half the equation of this psuedo-sport that we love is based on amatuer wrestling. Amatuer wrestling is all about controlling your opponents body. I think that they should educate the fans on the psychology of controlling your opponent, because it would help break up a lot of the monotony. A guy like Rhyno shouldn't really be put into a position to try and be a submission wrestler because, frankly, it goes against the image that they are trying to portray. Not the mention the fact that he isn't very good at it. Then you have to factor in that these temporary injuries that the wrestlers suffer during the matches don't mean as much when they are in every single match. Even Torrie Wilson matches for Christ's sake! People bitch about the use of sleepers during WWE matches, but shit, it's a hold that can get the crowd into a match and they don't have to look silly for not selling the effects after they escape it and transition into their comeback. Using Torrie Wilson matches as an example again: During her match a few weeks ago against Nidia, Nidia worked the leg and locked her in a half crab. While it may seem like solid psychology, how am I, as a fan watching WWE programs, supposed to believe that Nidia has a hope in hell of making her tap out, much less do a reasonable amount of damage to Torrie's leg to have the opportunity to win the match when in every single single's match on Raw and Smackdown, it never factors into anything of note and the face either goes down to their finisher, cheating, or still limps their way to victory? That's why I enjoy WWE TV tag matches more than TV singles matches, it's a different kind of psychology that tries and sometimes succeeds in trying to get emotion out of the fan and not some bullshit "injury" that only limits wrestlers who can't sell all that well, but bring other attributes to the table.

 

That's my 2 cents. As you can tell, it's kinda been bugging me.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

My problem with Limb Damage is that it doesn't seem to go anywhere. The point of it is to either a)set up a submission/hold or b)prevent a hold. But it generally doesn't do _either_ of them, it's just 'there' for the sake of it. Plus, I think submissions should be worked like they are in MMA - once it's on, it's over. Doesn't matter if it's 30 seconds in or 30 minutes - an Armbar hurts either way.

 

The big example of ignoring limb work was when Haas was workin on Angles hand, but Angle still tried for the Ankle lock and generally ignored that his hand was ever worked on. That annoys me too.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Quote The Mighty Damaramu: "See Benoit's just not trying anymore"

 

That statement's ridiculous. Do you do physical activity? Benoit was busting his BUTT off and in the situation he was in did the best job possable. If you were Benoit and in the same situation Tuesday night what specifically would you have done to improve the match? Would you able to improvise at a second's notice?

[Guest JericholicEdgeHead]

I'll probably get slammed for saying this but here goes..

 

Does alot of people here and other places for that matter have to be so critical about EVERYTHING in WWe that we now pick apart a good match on FREE TV. I don't care how many chinlocks there was.....WE GOT A 15 minute match on FREE TV!!

 

I'm as guilty as just about everyone that picks apart alot of what WWe puts out and 75% of what they put out is crap(skits, promos, angles, ect.) But if they decide to show a wrestling match on FREE TV that is more than the usual 3-4 minutes I'm happy.

 

Does anyone here remember when they just enjoyed watching wrestling and DIDN'T pick apart every aspect of it??

Just curious.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

By that you mean: Does anyone remember a time they just enjoyed watching wrestling and didn't think about it?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

And there is no such thing as a "free tv match" for crying-out-loud. You still GIVE THEM something, be it your time or cable bill or your attention for commercials. It's not "Free"

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Wow did you misinterpret my comment. Yes I meant Benoit's not trying as in he's not trying physically. No jackass that's not what I meant.

I meant Benoit's not trying to have great matches anymore. He's not trying to change it up and tell a great story. He does the same thing in every match. He's not trying anymore.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

I don't pick apart matches. When something in a match is glaringly wrong then I notice them. I don't think anyone sits here with a clipboard and picks the match apart. We just catch them in our viewing of the match. And that chinlock was something glaringly wrong with the match.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Or they told him to play the role he played.

 

Arn: Hey Chris, the boss wants Rhyno to kick your ass tonight - don't do much - just finish the match with a quick crossface, ok?

 

Chris: Aight.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Wait... You guys don't use a clipboard???