Foley news from the Observer

[Guest Dangerous A]

Mick Foley was at first coming in just for the PPV and 2 tv shows with the idea of plugging his book on the second show. He had such a good time returning that he immediately agreed to work some house shows as a ref as well. He is scheduled for this monday's MSG raw as well. There is a good chance he'll appear from time to time on TV going forward because he enjoyed his return. The working idea from a company standpoint is for him to wrestle later in the year, coming out of retirement at this point for street fight style matches with Randy Orton. The idea is they are goin to attempt to make Orton into another Rock level superstar. The plan is for Orton to work with and go over Shawn Michaels (probrably at Summerslam) and for Michaels to establish him as a great wrestler. The idea would be his next program would be with Foley, the idea being Foley can put him over and make the fans take Orton seriously as a brawler given his work in helping make Kane, Rock, and HHH into bigger stars than they were and helping rejuvenate Undertaker's career. Foley himself has talked about maybe doing one more matche if he can get in shape, but talked about it for WM.

 

 

Source: Wrestling Observer Newsletter 6/23/03 edition.

 

 

Fairly scary stuff with Orton getting ready to recieve the God push.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I would dig it if Orton retired Michaels, and then re-retired Foley. Then retired Hogan or something. So it's basically Natural Selection. That would probably get over.

 

I like the idea of Foley workin house shows too. They should try to advertise that.

[JasonX 0]

Mick Foley was at first coming in just for the PPV and 2 tv shows with the idea of plugging his book on the second show. He had such a good time returning that he immediately agreed to work some house shows as a ref as well. He is scheduled for this monday's MSG raw as well. There is a good chance he'll appear from time to time on TV going forward because he enjoyed his return. The working idea from a company standpoint is for him to wrestle later in the year, coming out of retirement at this point for street fight style matches with Randy Orton. The idea is they are goin to attempt to make Orton into another Rock level superstar. The plan is for Orton to work with and go over Shawn Michaels (probrably at Summerslam) and for Michaels to establish him as a great wrestler. The idea would be his next program would be with Foley, the idea being Foley can put him over and make the fans take Orton seriously as a brawler given his work in helping make Kane, Rock, and HHH into bigger stars than they were and helping rejuvenate Undertaker's career. Foley himself has talked about maybe doing one more matche if he can get in shape, but talked about it for WM.

 

 

Source: Wrestling Observer Newsletter 6/23/03 edition.

 

 

Fairly scary stuff with Orton getting ready to recieve the God push.

 

1. This means Golberg/HHH might still be on, though we still don't know if HHH has enough stroke still to get out of jobbing to Golberg if his safety Foley is going to be sacrificed to Orton.

 

2. I guess the Hurricane won't be getting any wins back from Orton and will probably be set up as Orton's personal bitch for now on

 

3. At least Jericho isn't being turned face so as to be sacrificed to get Orton over.....

[Bored 0]

Don't worry...Orton will just get injured again. Oh and Orton must give a the best blow jobs in the business.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I can't see Orton having that good of a match with either Foley or Michaels. I mean, there's potential in Orton, but not against those guys. He needs Eddie and Benoit and Jericho... or as I like to call it, "doing the JEB".

[Guest Dangerous A]

Meltzer commented that Orton isn't a bad choice for this push because he wasn't bad on the mic (although there is room for much improvement) and he is young (21 going on 22) and was one of the few OVWer's to pick things up quickly. Whether the push works or not remains to be seen.

[JasonX 0]

He needs Eddie and Benoit and Jericho... or as I like to call it, "doing the JEB".

Won't happen since Eddy and Benoit are stuck in the hellish purgatory called Smackdown where they get buried in the midcard forever and ever and Jericho is stuck as a heel and will probably not get turned back to a face do to the fact that Nash, Golberg, HBK, and Austin are still the top faces on Raw...

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I know, but for that "great match" he needs to have someone that, you know, could actually carry him to one... not Foley or Michaels.

[Guest Anglesault]

The plan is for Orton to work with and go over Shawn Michaels (probrably at Summerslam) and for Michaels to establish him as a great wrestler.

God couldn't convince me of that.

[Guest Polish_Rifle]

I don’t mind Orton getting a big push. At least it’s a new face and someone who is young and can wrestle. Foley talked about putting Orton over on Byte This yesterday but I don’t know if HBK will do the same.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Billy Kidman convinced me of it... well, not "Great wrestler" but "Good Wrestler"...

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Wait so Michaels will put over Orton but not Jericho?

[Guest Anglesault]

and can wrestle.

::Watches the Storm-Christian match::

 

Er...

[Guest Anglesault]

Wait so Michaels will put over Orton but not Jericho?

Orton fucks HHH

[Guest HartFan86]

Wasn't Orton suppose to get a big push before he fucked up his elbow? I suppose this probably should of happen months ago.

[Guest HartFan86]

Another question...don't mean to be asking the same old "bitter smart mark question", but why can't the WWE push Benoit as the next superstar instead of Orton?

 

And please don't give me the "Benoit doesn't have chrisma" bullshit...if they took time to give him a character and develop it, he'd easily get over. Hell, he was the biggest face in the company the night of the Rumble in Boston. He doesn't need chrisma to get over.

 

Also, Foley was right when he said that Benoit needs to play the character he truly lives...just a nice guy that people can look up too..and he can wrestle.

 

WWE just boggles my mind sometimes. Good for them they are pushing new guys, but why do they need to when they still can still push superstars that are already developed?

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

Another question...don't mean to be asking the same old "bitter smart mark question", but why can't the WWE push Benoit as the next superstar instead of Orton?

 

And please don't give me the "Benoit doesn't have chrisma" bullshit...if they took time to give him a character and develop it, he'd easily get over. Hell, he was the biggest face in the company the night of the Rumble in Boston. He doesn't need chrisma to get over.

 

Also, Foley was right when he said that Benoit needs to play the character he truly lives...just a nice guy that people can look up too..and he can wrestle.

 

WWE just boggles my mind sometimes. Good for them they are pushing new guys, but why do they need to when they still can still push superstars that are already developed?

34 years old vs. 21 years old.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I don't really have a problem with them pushing Orton. It would be neat to see him as a "legend killer" - being that he is a 3rd Generation(al) wrestler - they could probably do something with that. He just needs to get better moves. His Ace Crusher needs work (too contrived), and he needs a solid secondary move. He's a good bumper, has a good look, can kinda talk on the mic (not very natural, though - Foley and Flair could help him out on that) and has the ability to work good matches - but nothing Epic at this point in time to put him over the top.

 

As for Benoit... Yeah, he's goin nowhere.

[Guest the pinjockey]

How about letting him work an actual extended program with someone before planning a god push for him? Is it too much to ask to see how good he actually is before figuring putting him over Foley and Michaels? And don't even get me started on the fact Michaels couldn't job to Jericho yet will get beat by a 55 year old man then put over Randy Orton.

[Guest Anglesault]

Another question...don't mean to be asking the same old "bitter smart mark question", but why can't the WWE push Benoit as the next superstar instead of Orton?

 

And please don't give me the "Benoit doesn't have chrisma" bullshit...if they took time to give him a character and develop it, he'd easily get over. Hell, he was the biggest face in the company the night of the Rumble in Boston. He doesn't need chrisma to get over.

 

Also, Foley was right when he said that Benoit needs to play the character he truly lives...just a nice guy that people can look up too..and he can wrestle.

 

WWE just boggles my mind sometimes. Good for them they are pushing new guys, but why do they need to when they still can still push superstars that are already developed?

34 years old vs. 21 years old.

Good, vs. Well, not good.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I disagree with Foley on the Benoit subject. I think they should just make Benoit repressed. The pinnacle of his character was around the Rumble when he said he wants to become champion to make all those sacrifices mean something - they could do A LOT with that in terms of motivation and characterization and they just dropped the ball on it.

 

They could TOTALLY do an angle with Orton where he wants to destroy all the "legends" because he's sick and tired of living in his father and grandfathers shadow, and wants to carve his name into history as THE one and only Orton. Have it all lead up to Orton vs. Hogan at WM 20, where Orton retires Hogan (which is such a natural fucking storyline given that WM 1 had Hogan and Bob Orton Jr. in it).

[Guest HartFan86]

But yet they have 40-50 year old guys in the main programs.

 

I don't know, but it just feels like when all the older guys retire in the next 5 years (Austin, Hogan, Angle, HBK, Taker, Nash, Flair, and others I'm forgetting), people like Benoit are going to be blocked out for guys like Orton.

 

And isn't Orton still a tad green to be getting a monster push?

[Gert T 0]

I don't really mind the push either, but if they keep feeding the top faces to Orton, who's HHH gonna beat every month?

[Guest Polish_Rifle]

They want to push one of their own and like I said before that’s cool. I hope he does not get a big head, after all, he must have gotten HHH’s approval for his push.

[Guest HartFan86]

I disagree with Foley on the Benoit subject. I think they should just make Benoit repressed. The pinnacle of his character was around the Rumble when he said he wants to become champion to make all those sacrifices mean something - they could do A LOT with that in terms of motivation and characterization and they just dropped the ball on it.

I think you could mix the two, really. Those promos he did were really good and they reflected not only on Chris Benoit (WWE Superstar and Trademark), but Chris Benoit (the human being).

 

I probably should just shut it because I've gone on the subject for months...they could do so much with Benoit and they don't, so I don't really see the point I guess.

[Guest CanadianChick]

The plan is for Orton to work with and go over Shawn Michaels (probrably at Summerslam) and for Michaels to establish him as a great wrestler.

God couldn't convince me of that.

What does Triple H have to do with this?

 

Sorry, bad joke.

 

Anyways, pushing Orton isn't such a bad idea. I think he's alright in the ring. He's not Benoit, but he's certainly not awful by any means. Plus, he's very young and has pretty good mic skills. To top it all off, he's hot. Very, very hot. Like I could just stare at him all day hot. Okay, I'm done.

[Guest gthureson]

But what is truly the career lifespan of top of the line, big drawing star in the WWE?

 

Discounting Hulk Hogan's Faust-like deal with the devil, there is:

 

Bret Hart: 1993 - 1997 (4 years)

Shawn Michaels: 1993 - 1998 (5 years. Death by injury)

Steve Austin: 1996 - 2002

The Rock: 1997 - 2001 (4 years. He hasn't really been around enough the last couple of years to be the guy to carry the company)

Mick Foley: 1997ish - 2000 (2 1/2 -3 years as a top level player)

Triple H: 1998-2003 (5 years, less a year due to injury, no longer the go-to guy and likely not much gas left anyway)

Kurt Angle: 2000 - 2003 (3 years, he himself only talks about staying another year in the business, so call it 4)

 

So even if you can make him a superstar, he has maybe 4 years as a top-level player in him. No reason why you can't do this with someone who is 34 years old as well as someone who is 21. Because odds are, with Orton's injury history, you put him in the marquee matches (cages, hell in a cells, street fights, etc.), the guy will get hurt and either be retired or a shell of his former self in 5 years.

 

My point?

 

The way the wrestling business goes through guys, they shouldn't be worried about their age as long as they can still go, 'cause they will be done about 4 to 5 years later anyway.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

But, in my view, the fans should look at Benoit not as the typical "every-guy" but rather as a tragic hero.

 

Here's a guy who has put in his time and should be on top. He has travelled all over the world, worked the scene, is respected by his peers as one of the best in the business but everytime he gets close to the gold, it gets taken away. From WCW, to his matches with the Rock, to his match with Angle at the Rumble. He get's close enough to touch it, but it gets pulled away. The thing is, he doesn't bitch, he doesn't complain, he doesn't cry - he just takes it on the chin and keeps his head high thinking that one day, as long as he keeps working hard, he will get his due. In _this_ way, he is the everyman. He is not the Stone Cold Steve Austin whip-your-bosses-ass-and-drink-some-beer everyman, he is a more simple, more subtle, more common everyman. It would take a lot of work to pull this off, because his sort of everyman isn't over-the-top, but it's more noble. I think the fans could dig that.

 

------------

 

The Characteristics of an "Archetypal" Tragic Hero

 

1. Noble Stature: since tragedy involves the "fall" of a tragic hero, one theory is that one must have a lofty position to fall from, or else there is no tragedy (just pathos). Another explanation of this characteristic is that tragedies involving people of stature affect the lives of others. In the case of a king, the tragedy would not only involve the individual and his family, it would also involve the whole society.

 

2. Tragic Flaw (Hamartia): the tragic hero must "fall" due to some flaw in his own personality. The most common tragic flaw is hubris (excessive pride). One who tries to attain too much possesses hubris.

 

3. Free Choice: while there is often a discussion of the role of fate in the downfall of a tragic hero, there must be an element of choice in order for there to be a true tragedy. The tragic hero falls because he chooses one course of action over another.

 

4. The Punishment Exceeds the Crime: the audience must not be left feeling that the tragic hero got what he deserved. Part of what makes the action "tragic" is to witness the injustice of what has occurred to the tragic hero.

 

5. Hero has Increased Awareness: it is crucial that the tragic hero come to some sort of an understanding of what went wrong or of what was really going on before he comes to his end.

 

6. Produces Catharsis in Audience: catharsis is a feeling of "emotional purgation" that an audience feels after witnessing the plight of a tragic hero: we feel emotionally drained, but exultant.

[Guest Dangerous A]

That's what I'm talking about, RRR!

 

 

School these young boys and girls in the matters of character.

[Guest HartFan86]

Problem is a Tragic Flaw, in WWE's mind, would Benoit becoming an octosexual or something.