Guest Special K Report post Posted June 30, 2003 A week ago or so I purchased the "watchmen" TPB from a local store. Published by DC, but not set in the DC universe, it is by far the best comic book I've ever read. Way beter than Dark Knight Returns, and I LOVED DKR. P.S., It's great in that it's less centered around plot and more centered around ambiance and genius world-building and wonderful, sad characters. THe art is 4 color (or whatever that old school slightly garish color is called) Which bugs soime people. Bollocks to that, Watchmen is king. (P.S. to those who have read it) It's too bad they can't do a miniseries based on watchmen, cause it would basically translate panel by panel, but no way I think they could do it with what happens in the ending. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest starvenger Report post Posted June 30, 2003 I only read Watchmen about 5-6 years ago, so don't feel too bad. A definite must read. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Steviekick Report post Posted June 30, 2003 I finally read Watchmen in its entirety last summer. It's a great read. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Bruiser Chong Report post Posted June 30, 2003 I haven't read the series, but it was praised heavily on a documentary that the History Channel ran a couple nights ago about the history of comic books. Sounds quite deep and interesting. I'm just slowly getting back into comics myself, so I may have to check this out eventually. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Marshall Report post Posted July 1, 2003 I read it recently too. Anyone else hate the 'pirate comic' stuff. I didn't get those parts. Everything else was cool. I hear the movie is coming along. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JaKyL25 Report post Posted July 1, 2003 A movie? Bollocks to that. It should remain as the piece of art it is. Adaptations SUCK. As for the Pirate comics parts, they were there mostly as a parallel to what was happening in the real story. If you didn't pick up on that, then try re-reading it with that in mind. I think you'll get more out of it. Oh, and yeah, don't feel bad about being late. I myself just read it for the first time 4 years ago. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted July 2, 2003 It's a definite masterpiece, but Watchmen does have one flaw, and it often gets overlooked. Rorschach is the guy *everyone* remembers the most, and it's painfully obvious that Moore wanted that guy to be Dr. Manhattan. You can tell in the chapter that lays out Manhattan's backstory: Moore desperatly wants the reader to be intriuged with this character, however he fails to realize one simple fact:Manhattan is just too goddamn complex to be truly viable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest brokentusk16 Report post Posted July 2, 2003 It's a definite masterpiece, but Watchmen does have one flaw, and it often gets overlooked. Rorschach is the guy *everyone* remembers the most, and it's painfully obvious that Moore wanted that guy to be Dr. Manhattan. You can tell in the chapter that lays out Manhattan's backstory: Moore desperatly wants the reader to be intriuged with this character, however he fails to realize one simple fact:Manhattan is just too goddamn complex to be truly viable. That's very true. To me, Rorshach was the only *true* hero in the whole story! He stood for the right thing up until the end, even when everyone else backed out. And I don't know how everybody else read into the ending, but I think it was obvious that Veidt's plan WAS going to fail, sooner or later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JaKyL25 Report post Posted July 2, 2003 Why is it that people focus so much on Rorshach? Because he looks cool? Personally, I find that the most interesting character is Ozymandias. I find Dr. Manhatten's backstory and situation infinitely interesting, but Veidt's ideology and intricate planning were always far more grabbing and seem to drive the plot far more in retrospect. Manhatten is an AWESOME (in any sense of the word) character study, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HellSpawn Report post Posted July 2, 2003 (edited) I still need to read Watchmen but about characters most famous in that story... I do believe Rorschach is #1, Ozzymandias looks kinda gay, same for the Comedian (not sure about the name?), and dont make me talk about a guy dressed in an Owl costume. Edit: mane? what the F*** is mane?... it should be Name. Edited July 4, 2003 by HellSpawn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JaKyL25 Report post Posted July 2, 2003 "(not sure about the mane)" Now that's an entertaining typo! I never liked his hair either. (BTW, yes, you got the name right). Ozymandias's looks have nothing to do with how great of a character he is, same with Nite Owl. Lots of superheroes would look freakin' retarded if they actually dressed like they do in comics. It's just the more realistic style of art that makes him look a little out of place in this series, but in effect he's SUPPOSED to be out of place. A relic from a bygone era with impotency issues. Just remember, Comedian > j00. I wish *I* could have figured out that life was a joke back in the '80s. **EDIT** "Relic from a bygone era"? Why, ain't that a redundant way to say the same thing twice? I = intellecktual. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest pochorenella Report post Posted July 2, 2003 I also just happened to buy this TPB just about 3 years ago. While I find it a totally great read, I just can't place it higher than Marvels or Dark Knight Returns, which are my two favorites. Of course I may be in the minority with this one since Watchmen is revered across the board as THE comic book story. How about someone lists the original DC characters that were supposed to be in this story? I know Dr. Midnight was supposed to be Captain Atom and of course, Owlman is Batman. How about the others? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Betty Houle 0 Report post Posted July 2, 2003 How about someone lists the original DC characters that were supposed to be in this story? I know Dr. Midnight was supposed to be Captain Atom and of course, Owlman is Batman. How about the others? Owlman is Blue Beetle. hence the vehicle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Betty Houle 0 Report post Posted July 2, 2003 They're the harlton heros. Dr. Manhatten = Captain Atom Rorshach = the Question Owlman/Owlman II = Blue Beetle/Blue Beetle II etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest crandamaniac Report post Posted July 2, 2003 How about someone lists the original DC characters that were supposed to be in this story? I know Dr. Midnight was supposed to be Captain Atom and of course, Owlman is Batman. How about the others? Yeah, as stated above, they were based on Charleston Characters. Moore wanted to use them, but DC wouldn't for some reason I can't remember. And the reason why people like Rorshach more then anything I believe is his motivation. He's that cool "anti-hero" who'd do anything to see his side of good prevail. He's probably one of the more fleshed out characters in the series. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted July 2, 2003 i do like how Rorschach wins in the end. The journal gets sent to New Frontiersman, and when they run the story, it will add the first doubts that the "alien invasion" was legit. Once people look deeper, eventually Veidt will be found out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest J*ingus Report post Posted July 2, 2003 Personally, I think people like Rorsharch simply because he really doesn't have any special powers or abilities at all. He's a short, scrawny guy without any unusual talents or real athletic prowess. He simply has the will to do whatever he wants, and can always come up with some creative (if often completely disgusting) way to do it. He's basically what the Punisher or Batman would be if they existed in real life. Personally, I also think that Veidt was the most interesting character overall. Moore is the only author I've ever seen who really sat down and thought out what the World's Smartest Man might actually be like, and then carried that idea to its conclusion with merciless logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Betty Houle 0 Report post Posted July 2, 2003 it's NIGHTOWL, not OWLMAN! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Betty Houle 0 Report post Posted July 2, 2003 i do like how Rorschach wins in the end. The journal gets sent to New Frontiersman, and when they run the story, it will add the first doubts that the "alien invasion" was legit. Once people look deeper, eventually Veidt will be found out. MAYBE this happens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted July 2, 2003 i do like how Rorschach wins in the end. The journal gets sent to New Frontiersman, and when they run the story, it will add the first doubts that the "alien invasion" was legit. Once people look deeper, eventually Veidt will be found out. MAYBE this happens. Veidt's plan is dependant on the fact that no one will ask questions; that people will accept what they've been told. If the US Goverment learns there's a chance this is bullshit, they investigate. If they investigfate, they find something is hinky. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest WrestlingDeacon Report post Posted July 2, 2003 Funny, because Owlman is the Earth 3, evil version of Batman. Who does that make Veidt and the Comedian as based off of the Charlton heroes? (I could kind of see the Comedian being a twisted, demented Uncle Sam.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest J*ingus Report post Posted July 2, 2003 Veidt's plan is dependant on the fact that no one will ask questions; that people will accept what they've been told. If the US Goverment learns there's a chance this is bullshit, they investigate. If they investigfate, they find something is hinky. Shouldn't we probably be using spoiler tags to discuss this stuff? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted July 2, 2003 Veidt's plan is dependant on the fact that no one will ask questions; that people will accept what they've been told. If the US Goverment learns there's a chance this is bullshit, they investigate. If they investigfate, they find something is hinky. Shouldn't we probably be using spoiler tags to discuss this stuff? Its in the comics thread, anyone who doesn't already know isn't here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest pochorenella Report post Posted July 2, 2003 Sorry for the Batman/Blue Beetle mistake. I knew it but I screwd up. Also I confused the NightOwl name, sorry. i do like how Rorschach wins in the end. The journal gets sent to New Frontiersman, and when they run the story, it will add the first doubts that the "alien invasion" was legit. Once people look deeper, eventually Veidt will be found out Doesn't that journal get buried under a bunch of papers and stuff? I always thought the truth STAYED BURIED as an analogy, hence no resolution and no punishment for Dr. Manhattan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SHODAN Report post Posted July 3, 2003 Decided to come out of exile for a moment to note that the Comedian is based on Peacemaker, not Uncle Sam (the Freedom Fighters were a Quality Comics team, not Charlton). Adrian Veidt was based on Thunderbolt (whom few people remember, since I don't think he was ever used by DC). Anyway, a few years back, Doug Atkinson wrote up some very nice annotations for Watchmen: http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~wald/watchmen-index.html The appendix contains notes on who was based on who: A NOTE ON THE ORIGINS OF THE CHARACTERS: Many of the super-heroes in this series are based on the original versions of characters published by Charlton Comics and acquired by DC. They are: Comedian: Based on Peacemaker. Violent government operative. Dr. Manhattan: Based on Captain Atom. Government employee gains godlike molecular powers in nuclear accident. Nite Owl I & II: Based on the first and third Blue Beetle. Original: policeman, fights crime in spare time in chainmail costume. (Published by Fox.) Third: Fights crime using science, has flying vehicle. Ozymandias: Based on Thunderbolt. Trained in the East, honed his mind & body to perfection. Rorschach: Based on the Question. Tough, violent crimefighters with featureless masks. Silk Spectre: Based on Nightshade. Female crimefighter, influenced by her mother, associates with ultra-powerful hero. [The mother-to-daughter identity transmission and costume/MO may be inspired by DC character Black Canary.] It is theoretically possible that the rest of the Minutemen were based on Golden Age superheroes; but if so, I have been unable to trace any specific sources. They seem to be more archetypes than specific tributes; Captain Metropolis is the patriotic hero, Mothman the Batman/Green Arrow-type bored playboy, Silk Spectre and Silhouette two types of Golden Age heroine. (Sally as Black Canary, Ursula as the harder-edged Iron Lady type. Her homosexuality may have been inspired by common rumors/theories about Wonder Woman.) The series was originally intended to be about the Charlton characters, but DC nixed the idea, probably because of the CAPTAIN ATOM and BLUE BEETLE series that began about the same time. Moore re-worked the characters slightly into the current versions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest brokentusk16 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 Sorry for the Batman/Blue Beetle mistake. I knew it but I screwd up. Also I confused the NightOwl name, sorry. i do like how Rorschach wins in the end. The journal gets sent to New Frontiersman, and when they run the story, it will add the first doubts that the "alien invasion" was legit. Once people look deeper, eventually Veidt will be found out Doesn't that journal get buried under a bunch of papers and stuff? I always thought the truth STAYED BURIED as an analogy, hence no resolution and no punishment for Dr. Manhattan. Ok, SPOILERS!!!!!! I don't think it really matters if the diary is even printed or not. By our nature, humanity can NEVER be at peace! War is a constant in our race; no peace will last forever. Manhattan knew that, hence the "Nothing lasts forever" line right before he leaves. It could be a year, ten years, a hundred years, whatever, sooner or later the powers on that Earth will do war once again. Veidt's "victory" is only temporary at best. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Betty Houle 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 i do like how Rorschach wins in the end. The journal gets sent to New Frontiersman, and when they run the story, it will add the first doubts that the "alien invasion" was legit. Once people look deeper, eventually Veidt will be found out. MAYBE this happens. Veidt's plan is dependant on the fact that no one will ask questions; that people will accept what they've been told. If the US Goverment learns there's a chance this is bullshit, they investigate. If they investigfate, they find something is hinky. IF the journal gets printed. IF it gets investigated. IF. Alan Moore loves open endings that ask IF. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Betty Houle 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2003 "Nite Owl I & II: Based on the first and third Blue Beetle. Original: policeman, fights crime in spare time in chainmail costume. (Published by Fox.) Third: Fights crime using science, has flying vehicle." Who the Hell was the sedond BB? I thought Dan Whatever was first and Ted Kord was second... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Lacroix Report post Posted July 14, 2003 SPOILER WARNING!!! I think the end is very deliberately left open-ended. Notice the last line - 'I leave it entirely in your hands.' IMHO, the message there is that the future of humanity will be in the hands of the average people, despite all the 'efforts' of the costumed heroes. The choice (about the diary but also generally) is there for US. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Zack Malibu Report post Posted July 30, 2003 SOME SPOILING AHEAD: Got the TPB cheap from my comic shop, FINALLY after all these years. I was, to put it mildly, blown away. I absolutely loved the climactic scene where Ozymandias was "Do? I already did it." Rorschach had to be my favorite character, not for his look (loved the backstory on his mask, btw), but as mentioned, for his stubborn determination to allow justice to prevail, at any cost. I had pretty much figured out that Laurie was Comedian's daughter after the rape scene. Kind of obvious, IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
