Rob Van Fucking Dam...

[Guest godthedog]

hmm...back to the ORIGINAL question...

 

i've almost never seen RVD pimped on this board as a good wrestler. he's a perennial favorite, and the two are not the same thing.

 

it's basically like the thing with booker t, only taken to a higher degree. we know he's not a good worker, and his great matches are far & few between, but he's fun to watch. booker t's fun to watch for the spinaroonie and some of his mic work, van dam does some stuff in the ring that's fun to watch. especially when he takes a ddt, with his head perpendicular to the mat: it looks cool. does it make any sense at all to do 2 somersaults as a set-up to a senton splash? of course not, but it's fun to watch.

 

and about being more over than jericho...which burial are we talking about here? his title reign in 2002, or when he was pushed back into the midcard after the phantom title switch & the last man standing match? cause in mid-2000, jericho was more over.

[Guest TheHulkster]

To make myself clear, I am not a die hard HHH hater. I appreciate it when he works hard, which he does most of the time, and I admire the fact that he strives to be a complete wrestler like the men he looks up to in the industry, but I will call him to task as a wrestling fan when I believe that he has made a mistake. Last night, I thought, in some ways, he failed in his role as a champion by not working Van Dam's style of match. It's his duty as champion to play to his opponent's strengths and make them look like a contender. In a lot of ways he did that last night, but selling isn't RVD's strong point and they should've tried to tell a different story in that ring. To a degree, I enjoyed that match, but that irked me. Then again, it all reverts to the kind of style the company wants their wrestler's to produce and the inherent flaws within. Instead of going into a long winded diatribe, i'll point y'all to this thread, which raised some good points as to what a lot of the problems with the WWE style are and some possible solutions:

 

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?

 

It might not be HHH's fault at all. That might just be the style the guys with the book are looking for and the style the road agents agreed upon, but it's definitely limiting as far as it's entertainment value.

Edited July 2, 2003 by TheHulkster

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Jericho may have been buried in 2000...

 

but he didn't go that far.

 

He ended up with the title the next year.

 

So his latest burial would be an actual one.

 

Hell, he was "demoted" to a great feud with Benoit, the IC title and a world title program in the summer BEFORE being the first undisputed champion.

 

When Van Dam gets that kind of push then we'll count his real burial as the next one.

 

I'm talking about the time they decided to throw dirt on the person and forget they exist.

 

You know...burial.

[Guest Memphis]

I don't think RVD should be any higher on the card or in any position of importance in the future, such as a World Champion.

 

Rob Van Dam *WAS* fun to watch when he originally arrived in WWE, however his act became seriously stale very fast because he did the exact same shit in every single match, hardly building or developing his style in anyway such as someone like Kurt Angle has done since joining.

 

Understandably so, Triple H shouldn't be where he is either, but Rob Van Dam is hardly any better than he is anyway, so neither of them should really be where they are.

 

Metal M

[Guest Nater]

Selling.

Big guys like Show, Undertaker, Brock get away with only moderate selling (about same with RVD) and have all had the title - like it or not. You would say "But thats what big guys do", to which I reply, Why cant RVD?

I would say what?

 

Don't put words in anyone's mouths. NO ONE should be in there and no-selling anyone's offence because selling is a vital part of the show they put on. Without selling, wrestling only justifies the concensus that it is a pussy industry full of fuckin' try-hard fakers.

 

Show and Taker just DON'T sell. To call what they determine as 'selling' to be 'moderate' is giving them FAR too much credit.

 

Put in a tape of Bret Hart, watch and learn.

 

M

I dont know what you would say, and I dont pretend to put words in your mouth. But what you say is true, as far as wrestling is concerned. Sports-Entertainment is different from Wrestling.

 

Sports-Entertainment is Vince's Wrestling Project.

 

I have seen Bret Hart, I'm not completely ignorant of what a talented performer is (though, lately I have been deprived of seeing one perform fully in their enviroment). It is my understanding though that Bret Hart is in no condition to wrestle.

Edited July 2, 2003 by Nater

[Guest Goose749]

Understandably so, Triple H shouldn't be where he is either, but Rob Van Dam is hardly any better than he is anyway, so neither of them should really be where they are.

Remember, you are talking about the same company that has (in the words of Strangler) the biggest threat to Brock Lesnar's title over the last few months get beat by a one-legged guy and Stephanie McMahon, and Hulk Hogan renouncing his identity (I was REALLY happy to hear of the end of Mr. America). Not much makes sense. Personal opinion, RVD has gotten slow. He is there more for the attitude now, but agreed he should not be up in World Champ class. Of course, the same goes for HHH, who gets into feuds with the likes of Kevin Nash (did anyone cheer for his entrance at HIAC?). Why is there such a lack of talent on RAW for HHH to defend against, meanwhile Benoit and Rhyno are jobbing to the fucking Bashams on Smackdown? The best talent on RAW they have against HHH, Booker T, is being wasted. Booker T has held 22 WCW titles, 5 time WCW Champ. What has he held in the WWE?

 

If you skipped the rant above, my point is:

1. Smackdown has plenty of talent, and doesn't know what to do with it.

2. RAW has no talent, and wouldn't know what to do if they had it.

Which condenses to:

3. WWE doesn't know what it's doing.

[Guest humongous2002]

Understandably so, Triple H shouldn't be where he is either, but Rob Van Dam is hardly any better than he is anyway, so neither of them should really be where they are.

Remember, you are talking about the same company that has (in the words of Strangler) the biggest threat to Brock Lesnar's title over the last few months get beat by a one-legged guy and Stephanie McMahon, and Hulk Hogan renouncing his identity (I was REALLY happy to hear of the end of Mr. America). Not much makes sense. Personal opinion, RVD has gotten slow. He is there more for the attitude now, but agreed he should not be up in World Champ class. Of course, the same goes for HHH, who gets into feuds with the likes of Kevin Nash (did anyone cheer for his entrance at HIAC?). Why is there such a lack of talent on RAW for HHH to defend against, meanwhile Benoit and Rhyno are jobbing to the fucking Bashams on Smackdown? The best talent on RAW they have against HHH, Booker T, is being wasted. Booker T has held 22 WCW titles, 5 time WCW Champ. What has he held in the WWE?

 

If you skipped the rant above, my point is:

1. Smackdown has plenty of talent, and doesn't know what to do with it.

2. RAW has no talent, and wouldn't know what to do if they had it.

Which condenses to:

3. WWE doesn't know what it's doing.

Booker T is a better talent than RVD?LMAO, no offense but Book is not good enough to tie Rob's boots.As entertaining as Booker T is , he is not a great worker. When was the last time Book had a 4* match? At least when RVD is motivated he could be quite the perfomer in the ring.Booker T the best talent on RAW ,bwahahahaha.

[Guest godthedog]

rob van dam is NOT a great worker.

 

in certain circumstances, he can be carried to good matches. but he is not a great worker by any stretch of the imagination.

 

not that booker t is, but i wanted to clear that up.

[Guest The Hamburglar]

RVD is shite. What does it matter if he's over? Big Show's managed to get fairly over too, but that doesn't mean I want him to get the WWE title. The only worker on Raw who it would be cool to see the title with is Jericho, seeing as he's decided to be entertaining again. And the whole "RVD's legs shouldn't be attacked because that's his whole moveset!" argument could easily be remedied if Rob actually knew how to perform any actual, you know, wrestling moves rather than shitty kick and splash variations.

[Guest jester]

Overness matters because it's closely related to drawing power. It's not a guarantee of drawing power, but it's more closely related than ring skills. Nobody paid to see Hogan because of his bottomless moveset.

 

RVD isn't that great of a wrestler, but people like him, which means they might pay to see him on the house circuit or prominently featured on a PPV. We don't know for sure because they've refused to put him in that position.

 

RVD is not as over as he used to be, because WWE made it perfectly clear they aren't going to do anything with him.

[Guest Goose749]

Booker T is a better talent than RVD?LMAO, no offense but Book is not good enough to tie Rob's boots.As entertaining as Booker T is , he is not a great worker. When was the last time Book had a 4* match? At least when RVD is motivated he could be quite the perfomer in the ring.Booker T the best talent on RAW ,bwahahahaha.

I didn't say that Booker T was the best talent on RAW, I said he was the best against HHH. What I meant by this was, he's not being used to his full potential. If given the chance, he could really get the crowd behind him. In his match with HHH, I do recall a "bullshit" chant. Also, I don't say he's better than RVD one-on-one. They are different style wrestlers. To me, RVD is not the type for world, but hardcore. Why the WWE got rid of the hardcore title, i don't know. I'm comparing Booker T to HHH and Kevin Nash.

 

The final point of my post, I stick by.

Edited July 2, 2003 by Goose749

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Here's an interesting tidbit that I've come up with in regards to RVD's psychology and selling...

 

If any of you have seen any old school southern wrestling or anything puro in the last twenty years, then you all know about Stan "The Lariat" Hansen. He was called "The Lariat" for the a reason: He had the best lariat in the business. The matches I have seen him in, the people have worked over his lariat arm to the point where he shouldn't even be able to use it.

 

Now look at RVD. Triple H attacked his legs because, like Hansen's arms, the legs are RVD's best weapon. They account for 95% of his offense. What happened after the opponent(s) worked on Hansen's arm? Hansen would gut it up and kill him with the lariat. So what happens with RVD? He guts it up and starts going at his opponents with his kicks and springy moves. It's all about how the people perceive the person inside the ring when it comes to psychology.

 

The fans know RVD is a high flyer. Chances are, people think it's smart to work on the legs, but that in the end, it won't matter, because the legs are the strongest part of Van Dam's body, and he can overcome any punishment that's given to him. RVD's selling might be a problem, but I don't necessarily think it's a problem with psychology. Unless the fans somehow buy into the fact that his legs are useless, I don't think you'll see RVD selling the legs that much anytime soon.

[Guest Choken One]

Maybe it's me but I would work RVD's ribs which would be easier for Rob to sell (just put hand around the ribs and go ow ow ow) and when he hits 5 * or Rolling Thunder...

 

He ribs are too hurt to cover...

 

Maybe that's just me.

 

And

 

I have to Say this

 

Booker is GROSSLY over-rated that it's downright scary. He can entertain and cut a promo but I always found his ring stuff boring with a few good ones here and there.

[Guest Goose749]

Booker is GROSSLY over-rated that it's downright scary.

Funny, I think this exact quote can apply to HHH.

[Guest Goodear]

Because the hills are alive with the sound of Triple H love? I don't think so sport.

[Guest godthedog]

Here's an interesting tidbit that I've come up with in regards to RVD's psychology and selling...

 

If any of you have seen any old school southern wrestling or anything puro in the last twenty years, then you all know about Stan "The Lariat" Hansen. He was called "The Lariat" for the a reason: He had the best lariat in the business. The matches I have seen him in, the people have worked over his lariat arm to the point where he shouldn't even be able to use it.

 

Now look at RVD. Triple H attacked his legs because, like Hansen's arms, the legs are RVD's best weapon. They account for 95% of his offense. What happened after the opponent(s) worked on Hansen's arm? Hansen would gut it up and kill him with the lariat.

i'd say that's oversimplifying things a bit. in the one hansen match i've seen, kobashi didn't work the arm for 10 minutes only to have hansen get up and kill him with a lariat 2 minutes later. it was a good while before hansen started using the arm again, IIRC. this isn't even close to what van dam did. rvd did: "ow, ow, my leg, triple h is making it hurt...hey, there's ric flair! look at me RUN! look at me KICK! whee!" this is slightly less plausible than what i've seen hansen do.

[Guest Goose749]

Because the hills are alive with the sound of Triple H love? I don't think so sport.

Within the WWE they are. If not, why the hell is he champ?

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

RVD doesn't work the putrid "WWE Style" that is why I like him at least.

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

**obligatory "HHH is boning Steph" comment**

 

RVD can do actual wrestling moves. His repertoire in ECW mainly consisted of kicks, Fisherman's Buster, Mexican Surfboard, Northern Lights Suplex, German Suplex, and a fireman's carry slam. Oh, and plenty of chair spots and flips and rolls (like Rolling Thunder and the cartwheel moonsault), with the finish being the 5-Star Frog Splash.

 

Rob needs motivation again. When he's allowed to go all-out with an opponent, like he was with Jeff Hardy back during the Invasion and with Eddie Guerrero this time last year, he can put on a really good match. Limits his stalling, and just goes right at it with his opponent.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Van Dam simply has no one on the Raw side of the roster aside from Jericho and believe it or not Tommy Dreamer who he matches up well with. In a tag scenario the Dudleys as well, but at this point RVD could wrestle either Dudley blindfolded.

 

Anyone who has seen RVD's best ECW work knows the "he doesn't know real wrestling moves" argument is goofy. I've seen him do a bunch of different suplexes (fisherman's buster, German, northern lights, double arm).

[Guest Memphis]

Selling.

Big guys like Show, Undertaker, Brock get away with only moderate selling (about same with RVD) and have all had the title - like it or not. You would say "But thats what big guys do", to which I reply, Why cant RVD?

I would say what?

 

Don't put words in anyone's mouths. NO ONE should be in there and no-selling anyone's offence because selling is a vital part of the show they put on. Without selling, wrestling only justifies the concensus that it is a pussy industry full of fuckin' try-hard fakers.

 

Show and Taker just DON'T sell. To call what they determine as 'selling' to be 'moderate' is giving them FAR too much credit.

 

Put in a tape of Bret Hart, watch and learn.

 

M

I dont know what you would say, and I dont pretend to put words in your mouth. But what you say is true, as far as wrestling is concerned. Sports-Entertainment is different from Wrestling.

 

Sports-Entertainment is Vince's Wrestling Project.

 

I have seen Bret Hart, I'm not completely ignorant of what a talented performer is (though, lately I have been deprived of seeing one perform fully in their enviroment). It is my understanding though that Bret Hart is in no condition to wrestle.

Apologies. You misunderstood me.

 

I was making the Hitman reference towards Big Show/Taker/Jones/A-Train etc.

 

To El Dandy:

 

Whereas Van Dam is a bondafide high flier, and I'll admit he's a good one, and his legs are obviously in good shape, it does excuse the fact that he acts as though he cannot feel pain. Look at Angle and Benoit - Both built like brick houses yet can sell their asses off to make a simple move look like it has life threatening capabilities. Despite the fact it's Trips, RVD should of been in there making Hunter's offence look as though it is the most hard-hitting on the roster. Why? Because Triple H is the World Champion, and a fucking unconvincing one, so he'd be helping the fans and the company by making HHH actually look as bad ass as he makes out.

 

And Goose:

 

You've made my point that RVD is only worthy for garbage/hardcore bouts to add novelty to a show, and nothing more.

 

Metal M

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

Yes but even though when Hansen's arm got worked over, it didn't really make him from hitting the lariat ''impossible''. He could still technically do it, even if it would cause him pain. Also if you watch his 1994 match with Kenta Kobashi, in the match Hansen injuries his arm by jumping off the apron and missing the lariat that he intended to hit Kobashi. Later in the match, while Hansen DOES have an injured arm, hits the lariat. However, because of the damage that Hansen sustained earlier, he cannot make the cover due to the pain that the cost of hitting the lariat caused him. Actually it gives Kobashi the advantage later in the match where he works over his arm leading to an upset. When someone works RVD's legs over, he physically shouldn't be able to jump around; but he still does. To put his selling on a similar level to Hansen's is just plain wrong...

[Guest Nater]

I think if RVD had a moveset that wasnt based entirely around jumping, rolling, kicking and stretching the legs.. then he could be viable as holding the Belt. That is not going to happen any time soon, as just about every belt match that he has with HHH.. his legs get worked, RVD doesnt sell, and him winning on popularity alone cant be stretched far enough to support him.

 

Bottom Line is RVD wont be champ until he either gains MASSIVE heat or learns to sell and retains what he has.

 

Fuck, even Hogan can sell.. sometimes.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I think if RVD had a moveset that wasnt based entirely around jumping, rolling, kicking and stretching the legs.. then he could be viable as holding the Belt. That is not going to happen any time soon, as just about every belt match that he has with HHH.. his legs get worked, RVD doesnt sell, and him winning on popularity alone cant be stretched far enough to support him.

 

Bottom Line is RVD wont be champ until he either gains MASSIVE heat or learns to sell and retains what he has.

 

Fuck, even Hogan can sell.. sometimes.

How is outpopping Rock during his first month in the company, not being MASSIVELY over? Not saying he should have been pushed to the moon back then, but was it that hard not to do completely NOTHING with him for nearly a year while his heat SLOWLY dwindled?

[Guest Nater]

Its a pretty common opinion (valid or not) that RVD was horribly mis-used. I believe he was, and unfortunately he lost what massive popularity he had.. so until he regains that (via awesome matches, promos, or that certain 'i dont know what') or learns to sell for a match properly, the WWE is most likely going to pass him over for guys like HBK and HHH.

[Guest Memphis]

Van Dam was hardly 'mis-used'. He main evented a Pay-Per-View alongside Kurt Angle and Steve Austin - the two biggest draws the company had active at the time.

 

He blew it then and he hasn't changed AT ALL today.

 

Apparently, judging from RAW, the fans are finally catching onto this too and choosing not to blow the roof off the place when Van Dam heads to the ring. The fans just didn't seem to care last Monday night.

 

M

[Guest Nater]

I think if RVD had a moveset that wasnt based entirely around jumping, rolling, kicking and stretching the legs.. then he could be viable as holding the Belt. That is not going to happen any time soon, as just about every belt match that he has with HHH.. his legs get worked, RVD doesnt sell, and him winning on popularity alone cant be stretched far enough to support him.

 

Bottom Line is RVD wont be champ until he either gains MASSIVE heat or learns to sell and retains what he has.

 

Fuck, even Hogan can sell.. sometimes.

How is outpopping Rock during his first month in the company, not being MASSIVELY over? Not saying he should have been pushed to the moon back then, but was it that hard not to do completely NOTHING with him for nearly a year while his heat SLOWLY dwindled?

He WAS horribly misused. Thats one of the reasons dont cheer for him, because he kept losing the Champ matches.

 

Hell, I zone out on HHH matches mainly because everybody knows the outcome. Why cheer for RVD when he isnt going anywhere.. thats like cheering for the Jets.

[Guest humongous2002]

Van Dam was hardly 'mis-used'. He main evented a Pay-Per-View alongside Kurt Angle and Steve Austin - the two biggest draws the company had active at the time.

 

He blew it then and he hasn't changed AT ALL today.

 

Apparently, judging from RAW, the fans are finally catching onto this too and choosing not to blow the roof off the place when Van Dam heads to the ring. The fans just didn't seem to care last Monday night.

 

M

How did he "blew it" then at the No Mercy ppv? If u are an RVD hater that's your business, but at least you've got to admit that he got over back in 2001 by putting out entertaining matches, not because he was booked as Kane's little sidekick. The majority of us RVD fans know how entertaining he could be if he gets a real push like Orton or Billy Gunn get all the time.And by the way the fans still care for Rob that they even thought he was going to beat HHH by the end of the match, so i don't know where did you get the idea about the fans not caring about Rob.

[Guest NoCalMike]

RVD turned the crowd. A dead crowd started out the match, but you could feel the crowd get more into the match as it went on. RVD fighting out of the pedigree numerous times, juiced the crowd. As did RVD fighting off evolution without losing immediately afterwards.

 

RVD didn't "blow it" in 2001. He was mildly pushed, and was over, and then WWE just decided "No more"

 

As far as the selling issue goes, I don't buy that he is not pushed as punishment for not selling. I am sure if he was being told to sell better, he would try, but when your entire wwe-offense revolves around "educated feet" it is kind of hard to start mat wrestling after your leg has been worked on.

[chaosrage 0]

Lots of high-flyers have bad selling, but they get away with it. If RVD does it though, why of course that means he's the worse wrestler... ever.

 

Let's look at everyone's favorite, Halloween Havoc 97, Rey vs Eddy. Eddy beat the living shit out of Rey and then all of a sudden Rey is up doing cartwheels, dropkicks, backflips, and running, flying, and hopping all over the ring like nothing happened to him. He didn't sell at all whenever he was on offense, but most people can look past that and still think it's one of the best matches of that year.

 

I mean, Rey's better about it now, but where were all those people that were saying RVD/Benoit sucked because RVD did one cartwheel with a hurt shoulder at back then?