Betty Houle Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 I finally got the Shawn Michaels DVD and I got to thinking about the matches on it. -vs. Razor Ramon (the best match of Scott Hall's career) -vs. Diesel (the best match of Nash's career) -vs. Mankind (the best match of Foley's career) vs. the Undertaker (are we seeing a pattern here?) Granted, the Hart match and the HHH match probably aren't the best of their careers (although the HHH match is the best HHH match since 2000) but they're amazing matches just the same. Flair may be able to get decent-to-good matches out of just about anyone but I think Michaels gets GREAT matches out of more wrestlers than anyone.
Guest KanadianKrusty Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 Flair may be able to get decent-to-good matches out of just about anyone but I think Michaels gets GREAT matches out of more wrestlers than anyone. All the guys named above were fairly capable wrestlers at the time they faced Michaels, so it's not like it was an HBK one-man show like Flair had to do, plus Michaels never had to carry slugs like Luger, Nikita Koloff, Butch Reed, and a bunch of Von Erichs, who were all carried by Flair to great or near-great matches.
Guest Fook_Hing_Ho Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 When HBK pulls a ***+ match out of El Gigante, then we'll talk about him being the greatest.
Guest Dynamite Kido Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 All the guys named above were fairly capable wrestlers at the time they faced Michaels, so it's not like it was an HBK one-man show like Flair had to do, plus Michaels never had to carry slugs like Luger, Nikita Koloff, Butch Reed, and a bunch of Von Erichs, who were all carried by Flair to great or near-great matches. NEWSFLASH- Nash is a slug just like those guys....
Guest pochorenella Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 And don't forget the Survivor Series 1996 and Royal Rumble 1997 matches against Sid (the former being the best one IMO). Definitely the two best single matches in Sid's career. I also believe he had a couple good matches with Yokozuna. That DVD is terrific. HBK is the greatest.
Guest Retro Rob Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 Flair wrestled most of his great matches as heel. Generally the heel dictates the pace of the match and thus is able to gauge the overall quality of it. Shawn on the other hand wrestled most of his great matches as a face. The face really is not in the driver's seat during a match, and thus does not dictate the overall pace. So in conclusion, Flair had it easier than Shawn more times than not.
Betty Houle Posted July 18, 2003 Author Report Posted July 18, 2003 Flair may be able to get decent-to-good matches out of just about anyone but I think Michaels gets GREAT matches out of more wrestlers than anyone. All the guys named above were fairly capable wrestlers at the time they faced Michaels, so it's not like it was an HBK one-man show like Flair had to do, plus Michaels never had to carry slugs like Luger, Nikita Koloff, Butch Reed, and a bunch of Von Erichs, who were all carried by Flair to great or near-great matches. Some of the Von Erichs were hardly "slugs". David in particular was a damn good worker. And Michaels carried plenty of subpar guys (Nash, Sid, Yokozuna). Considering Michaels' singles career predominantly only lasted 6 years (1992-1998), it's pretty impressive how many guys had their best match with him.
Guest thetrendsetter Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 All things considered, Yokozuna was far from a bad worker... He had some really good matches (for a 550-600) wrestler, and was easyablly carriable by people like Bret and Shawn...
Guest Mad the Swine Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 When Shawn Michaels cracks a disc in his neck in 1987 and keeps wrestling - despite weakness in his left arm - and doesn't take any time off at all because of it, I'll start considering him. Shawn didn't have to carry Nikita Koloff to 30 minute house show matches for two years. Nor deal with a drunk and/or high Kerry Von Erich.
Guest Kahran Ramsus Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 Bret/Diesel from Survivor Series 1995 is Nash's best match and HHH/Cactus from Royal Rumble 2000 is Foley's. I will grant HBK/Razor, but it is also HBK's best match so that doesn't say much about his carrying job. Also compare HBK/Bulldog & HBK/Vader to the likes of Bret/Bulldog & Flair/Vader (or Sting/Vader) . HBK doesn't even come close to having the best match with those guys. He was a great wrestler, but he is nowhere near the level of the top wrestlers of all time.
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 Flair may be able to get decent-to-good matches out of just about anyone but I think Michaels gets GREAT matches out of more wrestlers than anyone. All the guys named above were fairly capable wrestlers at the time they faced Michaels, so it's not like it was an HBK one-man show like Flair had to do, plus Michaels never had to carry slugs like Luger, Nikita Koloff, Butch Reed, and a bunch of Von Erichs, who were all carried by Flair to great or near-great matches. Luger was a very capable wrestler in the late 80's till his accident.
Guest KanadianKrusty Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 Oh and if HBK was so great he would've learned to pace himself so his career as a full-time wrestler wouldn't end in his early 30's. BAH GAWD 500th post~!
Guest HellSpawn Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 Like someone said, Hart had a better/equal match with Diesel and SurSer 95. And an equal match with Undertaker at One Night Only (and a very good but low paced at SummerSlam 97) I dont remember if he face De Bad Guy or Foley. BUT he got great matches with Savage, Owen, the Bulldogs, Tiger Mask (I), while Michaels was wrestling against Rick Martel and Tito Santana. HHH got several Better/Equal matches with Foley. And good matches with Taka, Jericho, Austin, Angle, Rock, Benoit. (I know, its hard to have a bad match with this guys) And Flair... well, Come F'n On !? Quote from PWTorch article "Stolen Moment". Oct. 10 1998 by Bruce Mitchell The following is just a partial list of wrestlers who Ric Flair had great matches with: Hulk Hogan, Dusty Rodhes, Lex Luger, Sting, Antonio Inoki, Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Brian Pillman, Harley Race, Ricky Morton, Rick Martel, Roddy Piper, Kerry Von Erich, Vader, Nikita Koloff, Paul Orndorff, Junkyard Dog, Tommy Rich, Ronnie Garvin, Bobby Eaton, Greg Valentine, Bob Backlund, Barry Windham, Dick Murdoch, Ted DiBiase, Eddie Gilbert, Magnum TA, Terry Taylor, Jimmy Snuka. Many if not most, of the wrestlers had their career best matches against Flair. I like HBK (and this DVD is great) but c'mon.
Guest Retro Rob Posted July 18, 2003 Report Posted July 18, 2003 Like someone said, Hart had a better/equal match with Diesel and SurSer 95. And an equal match with Undertaker at One Night Only (and a very good but low paced at SummerSlam 97) I dont remember if he face De Bad Guy or Foley. BUT he got great matches with Savage, Owen, the Bulldogs, Tiger Mask (I), while Michaels was wrestling against Rick Martel and Tito Santana. HHH got several Better/Equal matches with Foley. And good matches with Taka, Jericho, Austin, Angle, Rock, Benoit. (I know, its hard to have a bad match with this guys) And Flair... well, Come F'n On !? Magunom TA, Dusty Rhodes, Steamboat, Vader, Sting, Undertaker, Luger, HHH, and a long long etcetera. I like HBK (and this DVD is great) but c'mon. I don't think Hart's matches against Diesel or Taker were even in the same league as Shawns. Also, I don't think you can hold Shawn's lack of a push early in his career against him. Mick Foley calls the Mind Games match his personal best. I'm not sure if I agree with that statement, but the match was fucking awesome.
Guest DarkHollywood Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 Difference between Shawn and Bret/Flair/whoever. Once Shawn got his power trip in 1996 he half-assed more house shows than anyone. At least Flair worked his ass off in non-televised events. Also, Luger ALWAYS Sucked. The only people he can have good matches with were Flair, or someone MUCH better than him in work rate quality. His accident didnt effect him, his lazyness did. Also, its a lot easier to have great matches with yoiur best friends (that being Nash & Hall) so it's not like it was THAT hard. Bret had an equally great match with Nash and I doubt Bret had the same relationship with Nash that HBK did. Nash didn't start sucking (really sucking that is) until 1997-98. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT THIS FLAIR/GIGANTE *** MATCH!!!
Guest godthedog Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 HBK is the greatest! for me to poop on. couldn't resist. shawn's matches have not aged well. he entertained by bumping his ass off, while bret (just to name one) entertained by telling a story. watch, say, shawn's hell in a cell match, from 6 years ago. then watch, say, bret's summerslam match with davey, from 11 years ago. observe: bret's match, which is twice as old, is still better. this is because bret had a better grasp of fundamentals, and could flat-out work a match better. most of hbk's best matches are built around gimmicks. granted, shawn knew how to utilize the gimmicks better than just about anyone, but once the novelty wears off there's less substance than most of bret's best matches.
Guest DarkHollywood Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 HBK is the greatest! for me to poop on. couldn't resist. shawn's matches have not aged well. he entertained by bumping his ass off, while bret (just to name one) entertained by telling a story. watch, say, shawn's hell in a cell match, from 6 years ago. then watch, say, bret's summerslam match with davey, from 11 years ago. observe: bret's match, which is twice as old, is still better. this is because bret had a better grasp of fundamentals, and could flat-out work a match better. most of hbk's best matches are built around gimmicks. granted, shawn knew how to utilize the gimmicks better than just about anyone, but once the novelty wears off there's less substance than most of bret's best matches. Good Point. I just realized the 4 matches above were all gimmicked...wait, 3, but Mick Foley matches are always gimmicked even when not. vs. Razor: Ladder v. Nash: No Holds Barred v. Mankind: uh.....Still had a lot of hardcore bumping v. Undertaker: Hell in a Cell.
Guest Loss4Words Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 I'm a huge Bret Hart fan, but the truth is that Bret was known for half-assing house shows too. Obviously, Shawn isn't the greatest worker of all time, but I don't think that was the point Betty was trying to make. He was awesome in his WWF environment, I don't know how well he would have done when he was surrounded by true peers though. We'll never know for sure. The problem with Shawn is that every match told the story of HIM. This is a problem I have seen with a few other wrestlers at times too, but Shawn's selfishness really affected the quality of his matches sometimes. If Shawn wrestled a match as a babyface, the story of the match was his ability to overcome all odds. If Shawn wrestled a match as a heel, the story of the match was his ability to weasel his way out with yet another win. It was never about his opponent, it was only about Shawn. If you think I'm wrong, can anyone name a Shawn Michaels match that was constructed around the idea of a challenger pushing him to the absolute limit and coming within inches of winning the title? You probably can't think of any, because Shawn's matches were usually laid out where the attention was on him at all times. If he was bumping, the match was about his ability to absorb punishment. If he was on offense, the match was simply about how good he was. Only Razor Ramon has ever come out of a Shawn Michaels feud better off than he was going into it.
Guest DarkHollywood Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 I'm not sure, but Marty Jannetty KINDA pushed Michaels to the limit in some great matches. But this was pre-asshole HBK so I'm not sure If I'd count that. For The Record: I don't hate HBK. I liked his matches, but he's an asshole. (Will never forget Montreal...yes, I won't let go...actually I will, but WWE reminds me too often)
Guest godthedog Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 The problem with Shawn is that every match told the story of HIM. This is a problem I have seen with a few other wrestlers at times too, but Shawn's selfishness really affected the quality of his matches sometimes. If Shawn wrestled a match as a babyface, the story of the match was his ability to overcome all odds. If Shawn wrestled a match as a heel, the story of the match was his ability to weasel his way out with yet another win. It was never about his opponent, it was only about Shawn. If you think I'm wrong, can anyone name a Shawn Michaels match that was constructed around the idea of a challenger pushing him to the absolute limit and coming within inches of winning the title? You probably can't think of any, because Shawn's matches were usually laid out where the attention was on him at all times. If he was bumping, the match was about his ability to absorb punishment. If he was on offense, the match was simply about how good he was. you could make the same argument for just about every major foley match i've seen. his matches were ALWAYS about his ability to absorb punishment; even mindgames, which was a sick kind of "can you top this" game to see who could absorb the most punishment.
Guest Agent of Oblivion Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 No, it wasn't a "top this" sort of thing. Both guys are seen as people who can take a ruthless beating and find opportunities to win. The match had essentially no story or build going into at all, either, which isn't a good thing, but they really rocked the house. Foley sold the knee like a bitch, and busted out actual amateur moves to keep the heat on Shawn, and to show his frustration when Shawn didn't stay down. The show was aptly titled, since neither guy really had much of an issue going in, so neither one knew what to expect other than "He can take a whoopin'"
Guest godthedog Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 i'm not saying they DIDN'T rock the house, i don't think shawn or foley ever had a better match than that. i'm saying the story of the workers behind the match was "can you top this," as the whole thing kept getting wilder & the bumps kept getting sicker. it had something of a story, and a very nice flow, but that was all built AROUND the bumps.
Guest Retro Rob Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 The problem with Shawn is that every match told the story of HIM. This is a problem I have seen with a few other wrestlers at times too, but Shawn's selfishness really affected the quality of his matches sometimes. If Shawn wrestled a match as a babyface, the story of the match was his ability to overcome all odds. If Shawn wrestled a match as a heel, the story of the match was his ability to weasel his way out with yet another win. It was never about his opponent, it was only about Shawn. If you think I'm wrong, can anyone name a Shawn Michaels match that was constructed around the idea of a challenger pushing him to the absolute limit and coming within inches of winning the title? You probably can't think of any, because Shawn's matches were usually laid out where the attention was on him at all times. If he was bumping, the match was about his ability to absorb punishment. If he was on offense, the match was simply about how good he was. you could make the same argument for just about every major foley match i've seen. his matches were ALWAYS about his ability to absorb punishment; even mindgames, which was a sick kind of "can you top this" game to see who could absorb the most punishment. But Foley generally lost his matches. Look at his feud with the Rock. Sure he had a short run with the title, but ultimately I would say the Rock came out it better (Main eventing WM) and Foley was left battered. An even better example would be his feud with HHH. In my opinion, Foley did a better job of putting over his opponents than most other wrestlers do.
Guest Choken One Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 To the person that said Shawn HALF-ASSED it on the house shows is a dumb fuck... Shawn and Owen went balls out like it was Mania Main event...Shawn and Hunter were incredible...Shawn had another pair of good matches on House Shows That I attended Hart always half-assed in Cincy as far as I was conerned...
Guest bort Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 shawn foley at mind games is foleys greatist match in my mind,but i dont think that was because of shawn, foley worked his ass, i am not a HBK fan cuz i am from canada and pretty much all canadiens hate HBK and love bret
Guest Choken One Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 Yep...America loves shawn because he comes from our home town of America...
Gert T Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 I think history would look kinder on the Foley-Michaels match if it had a legit finish, not bashing it, but I think that's why most consider it not Mick's best match.
Guest godthedog Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 The problem with Shawn is that every match told the story of HIM. This is a problem I have seen with a few other wrestlers at times too, but Shawn's selfishness really affected the quality of his matches sometimes. If Shawn wrestled a match as a babyface, the story of the match was his ability to overcome all odds. If Shawn wrestled a match as a heel, the story of the match was his ability to weasel his way out with yet another win. It was never about his opponent, it was only about Shawn. If you think I'm wrong, can anyone name a Shawn Michaels match that was constructed around the idea of a challenger pushing him to the absolute limit and coming within inches of winning the title? You probably can't think of any, because Shawn's matches were usually laid out where the attention was on him at all times. If he was bumping, the match was about his ability to absorb punishment. If he was on offense, the match was simply about how good he was. you could make the same argument for just about every major foley match i've seen. his matches were ALWAYS about his ability to absorb punishment; even mindgames, which was a sick kind of "can you top this" game to see who could absorb the most punishment. But Foley generally lost his matches. Look at his feud with the Rock. Sure he had a short run with the title, but ultimately I would say the Rock came out it better (Main eventing WM) and Foley was left battered. An even better example would be his feud with HHH. In my opinion, Foley did a better job of putting over his opponents than most other wrestlers do. are you saying shawn didn't make his opponents look good? he made austin, diesel, sid, owen and foley all look like a million bucks. that's not the issue here, nor is winning or losing. the issue is what the matches are about, what story they tell. a major shawn michaels match is about shawn michaels & his ability to withstand punishment or how good he is; and a major mick foley match is about mick foley & his ability to withstand punishment or how vicious and crazy he is.
Guest DarkHollywood Posted July 19, 2003 Report Posted July 19, 2003 To the person that said Shawn HALF-ASSED it on the house shows is a dumb fuck... Shawn and Owen went balls out like it was Mania Main event...Shawn and Hunter were incredible...Shawn had another pair of good matches on House Shows That I attended Hart always half-assed in Cincy as far as I was conerned... I guess Scott Keith brain-washed me or something. Instead of using examples of Shawn vs. another great wrestler (Owen) at house shows, how bout some of him vs. people who sucked (Did he ever wrestle Sid in house shows?).
Guest Kahran Ramsus Posted July 21, 2003 Report Posted July 21, 2003 Shawn has had his fair share of half-assed house show performances (often against Bret Hart, who also did the same thing).
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