The brett/shawn/vince ss '97 incident...

[Guest Downhome]

Yes, I am bringing back a topic that never seems to die. Yes, I am bringing up a topic that many people are tired of discussing and just want to go away. Yes, I'm talking about one of the most controversial moments in Pro. Wrestling history...

 

...the Brett/Shawn/Vince Survivor Series 1997 incident.

 

My reasoning for bringing this up, is because I recently rented SS '97, just to see it once again, as it has been quite a while since I witnessed the situation unfold before my eyes. It's odd really, it seems that every time I watch that match, something new is revealed to me that I didn't notice before, I get more out of it, the answer becomes that much clearer...

 

...was it indeed a shoot, or a work, or both?

 

Now there are many ways to look at his, yes, we all know that. It seems like EVERYONE has an opinion on it, but hey, that's cool! But there is an answer, and untill SOMEONE reveals the TRUTH, well, I suppose it will always be up in the air for discussion among Pro. Wrestling fans. So with that said, let's look at some things I notice when I watch the match and just basic facts...

 

1) Brett already had a film crew at the show, following him through his day to day life. Was it them just being in the right place at the right time, or something more?

 

2) Both Brett & Shawn both looked troubled before the start of the match, of course, more so Brett. I don't think I have EVER seen so much worry on the face of Brett Hart. He truly looked like he was expecting something to happen.

 

3) When Shawn was put the Sharpshooter on Brett, it was indeed made to look like Brett or Shawn had no clue what Vince was doing, as Brett was in the middle of reversing the move.

 

4) Shawn even looked pissed after the match, as did HHH.

 

5) The entire match, Slaughter, Vince, Brisco, Patterson, etc... were around the ring, and followed both guys wherever they went durring the matching. Something that we never saw really before THIS said match.

 

6) After the match, Brett drew WCW in the air, but was in the right mind to actually draw the "C" the way so the fans and cameras could actually make it out as WCW, instead of doing it backwords as most would do in that state of mind.

 

Now keep in mind, not all of the above statements are just from me. It's stuff I've heard others say also, etc...

 

So what do you feel really happened? Would Vince actually allow his dirty laundry to air on LIVE TV? Is it possible that it was all just a work between all of those involved, and they pulled out the greatest angle of all time? Could it have simply been a favor from Brett to Vince, after years of Brett being with the company? Is it possible that this was simply an angle used for the creation of "the evil boss", which Vince has been ever since that incident?

 

Hell, we may never know, but there is one thing we know for sure...

 

...the truth, will come out one day!

 

What are YOUR thoughts on this?

[Guest Maurizio C... Version 2]

well, my thoughts are that I'm hungry and wanna eat something, but notwithstanding that...

 

1) Brett already had a film crew at the show, following him through his day to day life. Was it them just being in the right place at the right time, or something more?

 

Right place, right time.

 

2) Both Brett & Shawn both looked troubled before the start of the match, of course, more so Brett. I don't think I have EVER seen so much worry on the face of Brett Hart. He truly looked like he was expecting something to happen.

 

he WAS expecting something to happen. Vader even told him a few tricks like never get in a compromising position for a count or submission. he was leaving the wwf and was scared like shit of getting screwed and losing his heat.

 

3) When Shawn was put the Sharpshooter on Brett, it was indeed made to look like Brett or Shawn had no clue what Vince was doing, as Brett was in the middle of reversing the move.

 

Shawn was in on the screw, he just had to act surprised to protect himself from the boys in the locker room.

 

4) Shawn even looked pissed after the match, as did HHH.

 

5) The entire match, Slaughter, Vince, Brisco, Patterson, etc... were around the ring, and followed both guys wherever they went durring the matching. Something that we never saw really before THIS said match.

 

because there was fear some canadian idiot would attack Shawn and, naturally, to prevent a fuss from bret and a riot.

 

6) After the match, Brett drew WCW in the air, but was in the right mind to actually draw the "C" the way so the fans and cameras could actually make it out as WCW, instead of doing it backwords as most would do in that state of mind.

 

hey, it's not like he was some stupid or what, he's just a mark.

 

happy?

[Guest Downhome]

Yeah, I share your basic thoughts as well, I look at it as a true shoot, my only thing though is that it was just odd that Vince allowed it to be shown, etc...  Anyhow...

 

...from my understanding, Brett was to reverse Shawns Sharpshooter thus winning the match and giving him a big victory on a PPV in front of his home Country, then the next night on RAW, he Brett was to drop the title to Shawn on TV. Is this correct, or is that just some rumor as well?

[Guest Juvydriver]

I remember watching the show live and thinking, what the hell just happened.  I swear I must have watched it about 10 times that night, just to try and figure out if it was part of the show or something more.

 

I've never been 100% certain one way or the other.  For a long time, I thought, shoot.  But after applying the CRZ rule, I thought...work.  

 

(For those who don't know, the CRZ rule is "If you saw it on TV, it's a work.")

 

In his book, Mick Foley is convinced it's a shoot.  I know that he was a WWFE employee at the time, but I do think that he truly believes that.

 

My only problem is that everything happened just right.  The match went off without a hitch, Bret got his BIG money contract, and Vince turned his company around in a big way.  It worked out for everyone involved.

 

By contrast, the shoot the Russo did on Hogan (which I am convinced was legit) did nothing for anyone.  Russo was fired.  Hogan was never seen or heard from again (ok, SOME good did come of it), and WCW was out of business within a year.

 

I'm leaning towards WORK today.

 

Juvy

[Guest Tony149]

I say it was a well planned work that was hidden from every one in the company except a few people that turned into shoot when Owen died. It's probably the greatest mystery in wrestlin...err, Sports Entertainment history. That only Vince & Bret know the answer too.

[Guest Downhome]

I remember watching the show live and thinking, what the hell just happened.  I swear I must have watched it about 10 times that night, just to try and figure out if it was part of the show or something more.

 

I've never been 100% certain one way or the other.  For a long time, I thought, shoot.  But after applying the CRZ rule, I thought...work.  

 

(For those who don't know, the CRZ rule is "If you saw it on TV, it's a work.")

 

In his book, Mick Foley is convinced it's a shoot.  I know that he was a WWFE employee at the time, but I do think that he truly believes that.

 

My only problem is that everything happened just right.  The match went off without a hitch, Bret got his BIG money contract, and Vince turned his company around in a big way.  It worked out for everyone involved.

 

By contrast, the shoot the Russo did on Hogan (which I am convinced was legit) did nothing for anyone.  Russo was fired.  Hogan was never seen or heard from again (ok, SOME good did come of it), and WCW was out of business within a year.

 

I'm leaning towards WORK today.

 

Juvy

Darn you, darn you to heck! Ugh, the more I think about it the more I get ready to change my mind one way or the other, lol. Yes, the rule of "if you saw it on TV, it's a work" really gets in the way of what to think, and that is almost alone enough to make me believe it was a work.

 

You bring up a GREAT point, in that the Brett/Shawn/Vince incident DID indeed help all party's involved. It played out almost TOO perfectly, and that is something to really look at totally.

 

Then, with the Russo/Hogan thing, I am TOTALLY convinced that it was a shoot, and you are right, there was NO good that truly came out of that. All it did in my opinion, is help the company die out that much quicker, and no, I do not look at that as a good thing.

 

Eh, we may never know for sure!

[Guest Tony149]

The Hogan/Russo stuff was a work that Russo turned into a shoot. The Jarrett/Hogan match went as planned, but Russo totally shot on Hogan when he did that interview. Russo is being sued by Hogan, now.

[Guest Juvydriver]

The Hogan/Russo stuff was a work that Russo turned into a shoot. The Jarrett/Hogan match went as planned, but Russo totally shot on Hogan when he did that interview. Russo is being sued by Hogan, now.

 

That's exactly why I think the Survivor Series end was a work.  Bret had a "reasonable creative control" clause in his contract.  While what is "reasonable" could come into dispute, you would have to say that getting screwed as royally as it appeared that he did would go beyond "reasonable."  He would have had to have known or he could have sued Vince.

 

The reason he didn't?  3 years at $3 Mil from WCW.

 

The anatomy of a work.

 

 

Juvy

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

sued for what?  telling the truth?

[Guest J*ingus]

Okay:

 

"1) Brett already had a film crew at the show, following him through his day to day life. Was it them just being in the right place at the right time, or something more?"

 

They'd been following him for over a year at that point, from long before this whole situation ever happened.  

 

"2) Both Brett & Shawn both looked troubled before the start of the match, of course, more so Brett. I don't think I have EVER seen so much worry on the face of Brett Hart. He truly looked like he was expecting something to happen."

 

Well, it was his last WWF match for one thing.  He was genuinely worried about pretty much everything, as the documentary shows.  

 

"3) When Shawn was put the Sharpshooter on Brett, it was indeed made to look like Brett or Shawn had no clue what Vince was doing, as Brett was in the middle of reversing the move."

 

Shawn just strikes me as the type who wouldn't want to admit that he knew about it.  Realistically, he had to know, what if he reacted to the screwjob badly and quit the company or something?  Ergo, he'd try his best to make it look like he didn't know.  (Also, Bret might've killed him if he thought Shawn was in on it.)  

 

"4) Shawn even looked pissed after the match, as did HHH."

 

They might've been, that was a heavy thing they did that night.  But see #3 for the most likely explanation.  

 

"5) The entire match, Slaughter, Vince, Brisco, Patterson, etc... were around the ring, and followed both guys wherever they went durring the matching. Something that we never saw really before THIS said match."

 

Partly worries about a real fight breaking out, due to Bret and Shawn hating each other.  Also extra security for after the match, when the fans would be near-rioting.  

 

"6) After the match, Brett drew WCW in the air, but was in the right mind to actually draw the "C" the way so the fans and cameras could actually make it out as WCW, instead of doing it backwords as most would do in that state of mind."

 

I think if he had the presence of mind to draw the letters in the first place, he'd have the presence of mind to do it right.  This man had been on TV for twenty years, he knew what he was doing in relation to a camera.  

 

 

"...from my understanding, Brett was to reverse Shawns Sharpshooter thus winning the match and giving him a big victory on a PPV in front of his home Country, then the next night on RAW, he Brett was to drop the title to Shawn on TV. Is this correct, or is that just some rumor as well?"

 

Not quite.  Bret was supposed to reverse the sharpshooter, and then HHH and Chyna would run in, followed by the Hart Foundation, and the whole thing would end in a DQ or no-contest.  Bret planned to hand the belt over to the company the next night on Raw, and never actually get beaten for it.  

 

 

More evidence for a shoot was the fight in the back.  Bret really did give Vince a bad black eye, Vince really did twist his ankle, Bulldog really did injure his knee pulling Shane off Bret.  

 

In the end, I think there were simply far too many people who would've known if it was a work, and the secret would've been leaked out by now.  

 

For THE definitive rundown on Montreal, check out Meltzer's exhaustive timeline of events, which I believe is available under thesmarks.com/rspwfaq.

[Guest Downhome]

sued for what?  telling the truth?

Hmmm, public deffimation (sp?) of character perhaps? Sounds like he'd have a possible case if you ask me.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The Bret/Shawn incident was a shoot.  

 

People don't want to beleive it, but it's true.

 

I don't think his wife was that good af an actor that she could pull off her anger after the show.

 

Foley refused to work for a while because?  What, to make it look more like a shoot?  Bullshit.

 

The documentary crew was there for the whole year...so the fact that they were there has NOTHING to do with it being a work.  If you watch the movie you see that it is quite clearly heading in one direction (Wrestling is more real than people think) before it gets thrown off course.

 

Also, something you can take out of that documentary is that Bret thinks wrestling is MORE real than it is.  Not wanting to lose the title?  Bullshit.  Why would they create a big elaborate work when he could have just lost clean?  If anything, the whole thing devalued the title; not Bret.

[Guest Tony149]

I belive Hogan is suing Russo & AOL Time Warner for giving him (Hogan) a bad name and for breaking his contract (Creative control). So I guess Juvidriver is saying Bret could of sued Vince for breach of contract.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Hmmm, public deffimation (sp?) of character perhaps? Sounds like he'd have a possible case if you ask me.

 

A:  Almost all defamation of character suits aer thrown out of court when the person bieng "defamed" is a celebrity (IE: Someone who willingly puts themselves in the spotlight/in line for criticism)

 

B:  What he said is documented truth.  Something tells me he wouldn't have too hard of a time finding about 10000000 people to back him up.

[Guest Juvydriver]

I belive Hogan is suing Russo & AOL Time Warner for giving him (Hogan) a bad name and for breaking his contract (Creative control). So I guess Juvidriver is saying Bret could of sued Vince for breach of contract.

 

That's exactly what I meant.  

 

Foley refused to work for a while because?  What, to make it look more like a shoot?  Bullshit.

 

If he wasn't in on it and thought it was a shoot, absolutely.

 

I don't think his wife was that good af an actor that she could pull off her anger after the show.

 

Yeah, she was pissed off at HHH and called him Hunter.  Why would she call him by his wrestling moniker and not his real name?  It's not even his middle name.  It's his wrestling name.

 

More reasons to think it's a work.

 

Juvy

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Yeah...I'm sure HHH and Bret's wife were real close.

 

She probably didn't even know his real name.

 

 

 

So your saying that Foley was lying in his book when he didn't say something like "I came back to work when I found out it was a work"

[Guest Tony149]

Hmmm, public deffimation (sp?) of character perhaps? Sounds like he'd have a possible case if you ask me.

A:  Almost all defamation of character suits aer thrown out of court when the person bieng "defamed" is a celebrity (IE: Someone who willingly puts themselves in the spotlight/in line for criticism)

B:  What he said is documented truth.  Something tells me he wouldn't have too hard of a time finding about 10000000 people to back him up.

 

Yeah. I assume B refers to Vince Russo. I remember Jeff Jarrett cutting a promo with "Mean" Gene before the match saying "It won't be hard to find enemies." So yeah, Russo could have tons a guys backing him on that.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Besides all that:

 

Hogan wanted to use his creative control to beat Jarrett.

 

He pinned Jarrett didn't he?

[Guest Juvydriver]

So your saying that Foley was lying in his book when he didn't say something like "I came back to work when I found out it was a work"

 

No, I didn't say that at all.  Foley said in his book he came back when he realized that he was getting squat for taking a stand, and Bret was getting a cool couple million.  I think he still believes that it was a shoot.

 

Juvy

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Foley also said that he didn't go back until he talked to Bret first.

 

If Foley thought it was a shoot...why would he be so honest about everything else that he ever saw in wrestling...and then casually leave out that peice of information, which happens to be the most controversial thing in the history of the business?

[Guest Juvydriver]

Foley also said that he didn't go back until he talked to Bret first.

 

What would Bret have to gain by telling Foley that it was a work?  Nothing.  In fact, he had a lot to lose.  If Bret tells Foley, and Mick get's pissed (and rightly so) for being worked, what was gained?  Nothing.

 

It was in Bret's best interest to keep it under wraps.

 

Juvy

[Guest J*ingus]

"Yeah, she was pissed off at HHH and called him Hunter.  Why would she call him by his wrestling moniker and not his real name?  It's not even his middle name.  It's his wrestling name."

 

In fact, most wrestlers who aren't personal friends call each other by their work names.  

 

And I just don't see what the WWF stood to gain if it was a work.  It devalues their title, it devalues Shawn Michaels, it pisses off a LOT of their own employees to a ridiculous degree, and it hands WCW a basically unbeaten WWF world champion.  Why not just let Shawn beat Bret and get it over with?

[Guest Juvydriver]

And I just don't see what the WWF stood to gain if it was a work.  It devalues their title, it devalues Shawn Michaels, it pisses off a LOT of their own employees to a ridiculous degree, and it hands WCW a basically unbeaten WWF world champion.  Why not just let Shawn beat Bret and get it over with?

 

I'll grant you that it was a calculated risk, but the reward was great.  I don't see how it devalues Shawn Michaels.  If he wasn't in on it, which in storyline terms he was not, he's just a guy trying to win a match.  An employee doing what he's told to do.

 

Handing WCW an unbeaten champion was a risk too, but if WCW has proven one thing throughout time, it's that they can screw up anything.  Besides, for everytime that Bret could claim a victory over Shawn, he would have to claim at least one loss.

 

The one thing that is well documented is that Shawn and Bret didn't get along.  This way, Shawn gets the title and Bret can say that he was never beaten.

 

Again, it works out well for everyone.

 

 

Juvy

[Guest J*ingus]

"I'll grant you that it was a calculated risk, but the reward was great."  

 

I still fail to see how this would help the WWF more than Bret simply doing the damn job on the way out.  

 

"I don't see how it devalues Shawn Michaels.  If he wasn't in on it, which in storyline terms he was not, he's just a guy trying to win a match.  An employee doing what he's told to do."

 

You've just stated one of the problems.  This was an incident which broke kayfabe, big time.  To the smart marks, whom the wrestling business has never liked a whole lot, this is a controversy that reflects very badly on the WWF.  On the other hand, the casual viewers and marks would just be confused by the whole thing, and "Bret screwed Bret" would go right over their heads.  Neither group would look more favorably on Vince or the WWF afterward.  

 

"Handing WCW an unbeaten champion was a risk too, but if WCW has proven one thing throughout time, it's that they can screw up anything.  Besides, for everytime that Bret could claim a victory over Shawn, he would have to claim at least one loss."

 

At that time, WCW was seriously kicking the WWF's ass in terms of product quality, ratings, PPV buyrates, live attendence, merchandise sales, everything.  Add that to the fact that Vince HATED Bischoff, Turner, and the whole crew with a passion.  Simply put, Vince McMahon would never knowingly and intentionally giftwrap and present WCW an undefeated WWF World champion, which would be a HUGE blow to them in the Monday Night wars.  

 

"The one thing that is well documented is that Shawn and Bret didn't get along.  This way, Shawn gets the title and Bret can say that he was never beaten."

 

If he's leaving, Vince wouldn't want him to leave unbeaten.  When you leave a territory, you job on the way out, especially if you've been the champion or a top guy.  And it hurts Shawn because he never really won it, and therefore was never really world champion.  

 

Two things: 1.How would you explain the backstage fight?  and 2.Have you read Meltzer's essay on the subject?

[Guest Nathan]

I was just thinking, if it was a shoot, then Vince would have been more likely to set it up before it actually took place. As far as I know, he jumped up and waved his arms around etc. Wouldn't it have been more safe if he just had a talk to the bell guy etc. before the match? Also, if it wasn't a shoot, why would Vince let Brett talk about it to the media, without at least putting up a fight, like trying to call some copyright thing or something similar.

I think it looks too obvious for it to be a shoot.

Not that I have any real knowledge on the subjet.

[Guest Kagato Otaku]

People think it's too obvious to be a shoot because they think shoots have to be some great Machiavellian thing.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

this was brought up the other day, and it got me thinking about it.  i came to the conclusion that it was an elaborate work due to a number of reasons:

- As has already been stated, if it was truly a shoot bret would have sued the wwf for breach of contract.

- also, vince is such a proud man that he would not walk past a camera crew sproting a black eye unless he had something to gain from it.

 

it has all become a shoot since, as owen's death has meant that bret probably wont be seen in the wwf again.

[Guest Sek]

I believe it was a work, that only Vince knew all the details of. I also think Shawn, and HHH had some idea something was going to happen. I honestly believe Bret had no idea what was going on. Since Wrestling with Shadows was on the Biography Channel tonight, my memory is refreshed regarding the clues:

 

1. Bret was badmouthing the new direction of the WWF, and we all know how Vince reacts to being publically dissed.

 

2. If Vince was that worried about Bret pulling a Medusa on Nitro, he could have easily taken the belt himself and just stripped Bret of the title on RAW.

 

3. In the scene where Bret's wife is yelling at the wrestlers, HHH has the same look on his face that my 4 year old nephew gets when you catch him doing something wrong. His body language clearly (to me) indicated he knew more than he let on.

 

4. Why would Shawn go to Bret after the match if he was fully aware of the plan? They already had fistfights over dumb stuff, why go in the lion's den when he has a reason to kick your ass?

 

5. Bret comes off as such a huge mark for himself that it seems Vince could have flashed huge neon signs about what was going to happen and Bret still wouldn't have seen it coming.

 

My theory? Vince was going to let Bret have his way until Bret decided to start bashing the direction of the WWF at every chance. Vince then tells Shawn and Hunter that the plans have changed, and when the bell rings for Shawn  to grab the belt and GTFO as soon as he ends the match.

 

I did enjoy the irony of seeing Bret obsess over the integrity of his wrestling gimmick and how it meant so much to him, knowing that it took WCW all of .00000001 second to completely bung it up.

 

 

p.s. For all the "why didn't Bret sue Vince for breach of contract" theorists, don't forget Vince would have a nice countersuit over Bret knocking him into next Tuesday....simple assult you know.

[Guest Tony149]

All of this probably doesn't happen if Madusa doesn't drop the WWF Women's Title in the trash on Nitro. Vince got so paranoid that Bret might do the same thing, the whole "How do you drop the WWF Title" started.

 

As for Vince being able to counter sue Bret, if Bret sued Vince. Didn't Bret give Vince warning if he didn't leave his locker room when he got out of the shower, he would knock him out? It probably doesn't mean a thing.

[Guest bob_barron]

i say shoot- why else would the bulldog pay all that $ to leave?