So who turns heel?

July 30, 2003

if all they are given to choose from is heel or face, then of course more than likely they will choose face.
but what about the austin popularity or the benoit standing O at the rumble?

those were REAL dramatic moments. and it can happen all the time, but not with vince and his current 'writing' staff at the helm. with that i do agree.

There are some wrestlers, like Austin and Guerrero and Angle, who, although playing the heel, are still loved by the crowd. Thus, the "face/heel" writing is not flawed in the sense you stated it is. i know for a fact that, if Angle turns heel, there will be people cheering him. The same if Lesnar turns heel. the system does not tell you who to cheer for, it just defines the two opposing forces.

July 30, 2003

two opposing forces is so broad and thats what makes it good. man vs man, man vs nature, man vs himself, etc etc.

you have basically agreed with me without realizing it.

as a viewer who chooses who to be the face in your mind, you have made a choice. wrestling has now become interactive and therefore personal. you are now into the match and feel it. this is far different than being presented with person a: who is good and wholesome and loves his mother, and person b: who stabs ppl in the back all the time and hates the fans for no good reason. in this situation it doesnt take a rocket scientist to to figure out who the majority is going to root for.

thats the type of character writing that infuriates me.

you see, in all the greatest movies, both the hero and villain were equally flawed and you could relate to and understand their actions. therefore you the viewer can choose who you liked more and ultimately learn something about yourself in the process.

thats what all stories are about in the end anyway.

and i can get all the same protein and nutrients via soy based products that take less resources to create and do not kill a living animal to produce.

July 30, 2003

i disagree.
you see, the entire concept of faces vs heels is flawed. when a person in real life doesnt have something go their way, do they automatically turn schizophrenic and change personalities?

Well no, but their attitude might turn to one of bitterness. Or it might make them more determined. In wrestling, the heel is the one who turned bitter and the face is the one who gets more determined.

why isnt heel vs heel and face vs face an interesting match? with heels, its anything goes. youre telling me that a cena vs matt hardy feud wouldnt be great? or a hurricane vs booker t match?

The reaction isn't always there for a heel vs. heel match. And making a face vs. face match is very tricky too. You need both to be strong faces, but somehow a conflict needs to be arisen. The best I've ever seen of this is Ultimate Warrior vs. Savage at SummerSlam '92. Brilliant booking. And yes, a Hardy/Cena feud would be interesting, but would the crowd care? Maybe, but maybe not.

the concept of face vs heel is only important because you mistakenly think it is. its like believing that eating meat products is healthy and neccessary.

I take it you don't eat meat.

not everything needs a hero or a villain. all a story really needs is CONFLICT. this absolutely dows not equate to good vs. evil. (2 other concepts that are based solely on opinion and have no real concrete meaning)

It may not be nessesary, but it sure is convientant. It's a whole lot easier to make a conflict with a do gooder and a downright evil person than two in betweeners.

about brock being better as a heel. i'd argue that he's better as an agressor. but not neccessarily a heel. real people based on real personalities are always better than fake characters with little depth.

But his aggersive side is him being a heel really. Think of it like this: he hasn't been as successful as he was when he had Heyman as a manager. Wouldn't you go back to what worked, after being pinned by your so-called best friend? Wouldn't you be angry enough to get that title back, no matter what it takes?It just so happens what it takes is being allies with a sleazebag. So when he's allied with a sleazebag, obviously people won't like that, making him a sleazebag by assosiation, or a 'heel'.

July 30, 2003

I agree w/ what you're saying to an extent, but the WWE's reasoning behind Lesnar or Angle's turns won't be done in such a way that we as the fans will be able to identify with them. In fact, I can't remember the last time the WWE did a heel turn correctly and I thought "Yeah, I can see why they did that."

rising up out of the back seat-nuh · July 30, 2003

Ultimately if there is a match with two people you like, you wont be as worried about the outcome as a match with one peson you like and one person you dont.

Same as Football. A match with your team against a team you dont like will always be more important than if it were against a team you dont mind.

July 30, 2003

two opposing forces is so broad and thats what makes it good. man vs man, man vs nature, man vs himself, etc etc.
you have basically agreed with me without realizing it.

as a viewer who chooses who to be the face in your mind, you have made a choice. wrestling has now become interactive and therefore personal. you are now into the match and feel it. this is far different than being presented with person a: who is good and wholesome and loves his mother, and person b: who stabs ppl in the back all the time and hates the fans for no good reason. in this situation it doesnt take a rocket scientist to to figure out who the majority is going to root for.

thats the type of character writing that infuriates me.

you see, in all the greatest movies, both the hero and villain were equally flawed and you could relate to and understand their actions. therefore you the viewer can choose who you liked more and ultimately learn something about yourself in the process.

thats what all stories are about in the end anyway.

and i can get all the same protein and nutrients via soy based products that take less resources to create and do not kill a living animal to produce.

yes, but I am not agreeing with you, because what I am disagreeing with is your statement that "face/heel is stupid", which is pretty broad in itself compared to how you now limit it, and that I "have been brainwashed". I argue that stories throughout human history have had this sense of face/heel, defined by me as the basic components of a conflict, except for some children's stories that have no conflict, and are thus uninteresting. Now you claim I agree with you, when, in fact, I disagree. I rooted for Angle even when we started th You Suck chants. People now cheer for Eddie Guerrero, despite the fact that writing tries to make him a heel who we're supposed to boo. Even Zack Gowen, who is getting a huge face push, was booed at Vengeance. This is the exact opposite of what you claim would happen if we were all "brainwashed".

Off-beat, a question for you: If an owl kills a mouse for it's food, should we throw that owl in jail?

July 30, 2003

well, i'm done trying to convince the masses again.

i know that i'm always doomed to fail in my attempt to get people to think for themselves and outside the box, but yet i try sometimes anyway. although its getting less and less frequent.

my posts are there, hopefully for people to chew on, even if only to spit out.

i hope that one day, when a product comes along that actually respects people's intelligences, respects its employees, and genuinely understands how to craft a story, that viewers will finally realize that theyve been lied to all this time and will stop trying to defend a system that doesnt deserve defending.

July 30, 2003

well, i'm done trying to convince the masses again.
i know that i'm always doomed to fail in my attempt to get people to think for themselves and outside the box, but yet i try sometimes anyway. although its getting less and less frequent.

my posts are there, hopefully for people to chew on, even if only to spit out.

i hope that one day, when a product comes along that actually respects people's intelligences, respects its employees, and genuinely understands how to craft a story, that viewers will finally realize that theyve been lied to all this time and will stop trying to defend a system that doesnt deserve defending.

maybe if you stopped treating us as if we were morons, people would listen to you. The one thing that most people want is respect, and if you don't give it to them, you are going to be treated poorly. Try not saying we are "brainwashed", and maybe we'll consider.

rising up out of the back seat-nuh · July 30, 2003

well, i'm done trying to convince the masses again.
i know that i'm always doomed to fail in my attempt to get people to think for themselves and outside the box, but yet i try sometimes anyway. although its getting less and less frequent.

my posts are there, hopefully for people to chew on, even if only to spit out.

i hope that one day, when a product comes along that actually respects people's intelligences, respects its employees, and genuinely understands how to craft a story, that viewers will finally realize that theyve been lied to all this time and will stop trying to defend a system that doesnt deserve defending.

Sometimes people all think the same because, y'know, it makes sense.

Good vs Evil = more emotion than Good vs Good

July 30, 2003

the topic started off with someone who had already assumed that faces and heels were neccessary when in fact they are not. this means that the entire question was flawed because the reason for asking the question was flawed.

i only assume people are 'morons' and 'brainwashed' because they prove it all the time. there are so many smart people out there who still arent very smart.

also, respect is an ego driven concept. i personally do not care if you respect me or not. i have long since progressed beyond such childish concerns.

July 30, 2003

"Sometimes people all think the same because, y'know, it makes sense.

Good vs Evil = more emotion than Good vs Good"

in the middle ages, the vast majority of europe all thought that the earth was flat and was the center of the universe.

did it make sense? sure it did...TO THEM.

but when someone ACTUALLY thought about it, it didnt make any sense at all!

Sometimes people all think the same because its easier.

July 30, 2003

If you truly did not care about respect, you would not have posted that. You would feel no need to clarify what you're saying and justify it, because it wouldn't matter what we think of you. Anyway, you cannot assume an entire system is flawed because of what one person thinks about it.

July 30, 2003

riiight. y'know, maybe i try to explain things to people in the hopes that someday i wont have to because they will understand larger concepts and not be so sucked into the system.

of course it HAS to be that i crave attention and respect. i mean, that's just like everyone else. i must be a hypocrite. that means that all of my ideas are useless and therefore do not need to be thought about.

what a frikkin cop out.

July 30, 2003

of course it HAS to be that i crave attention and respect. i mean, that's just like everyone else. i must be a hypocrite. that means that all of my ideas are useless and therefore do not need to be thought about.

Actually, that is exactgly what I think. Otherwise, why are you trying to "save" people on a friggin' wrestling board? Why save people at all?

July 30, 2003

i LIKE professional wrestling. i am training to become a professional wrestler. it is my hope that people will become more educated so as to appreciate the stories i want to tell. stories that do not adhere to the 1 dimensional good vs bad stereotypes.

rising up out of the back seat-nuh · July 30, 2003

"Sometimes people all think the same because, y'know, it makes sense.

Good vs Evil = more emotion than Good vs Good"

in the middle ages, the vast majority of europe all thought that the earth was flat and was the center of the universe.

did it make sense? sure it did...TO THEM.

but when someone ACTUALLY thought about it, it didnt make any sense at all!

Sometimes people all think the same because its easier.

You are a silly person. The reason that people believed the Earth was flat, aside from what they were told, is that they had no way of really disproving it. In wrestling, as with all sports, it has been shown many times that it is easier to become emotionally involved if you like one side and dislike annother. Not just with faces/heels either.

Look at WMXIX. One of the reasons why so many got caught up on this board in Jericho/Michaels is that they wanted Jericho to beat Michaels.

July 30, 2003

Well, If you want to make it in the system, be prepared to fit into the system. If you're not willing to work with the storylines pitched at you, be prepared not to work at all. If you do manage to get past it, and get into your own writing, I look forward to seeing an example of what exactly you do mean. I think we were already somewhat past the "good vs. bad" stereotype when we started cheering for some of the bad guys, and booing some of the good guys. Or, in some matches, cheering for both good and bad guy. So, are you referring to who we support, or how the character is presented to us? Because the way the WWE wants it is not always the way the crowd reacts. If we truly were brainwashed by the WWE, we would not be bitching about it so much in this forum.

"also, respect is an ego driven concept. i personally do not care if you respect me or not. i have long since progressed beyond such childish concerns."

You do not find this statement hypocritical, especially the last sentence? You do not feel that that last sentence is a bit egotistical?

July 30, 2003

wow, you so smart mister goose. so smart in fact that you have an ankh as the symbol of some fantasy wrestler named the demon, complete with gothic style writing. yeah that makes the most sense ever. y'know. with the ankh being an egyptian symbol for life and reproduction, having nothing to do with the modern euro-goth-dark arts movement.

clearly i must be egotistical. because its easier to start insulting another person than logically countering their ideas.

July 30, 2003

and i can get all the same protein and nutrients via soy based products that take less resources to create and do not kill a living animal to produce.

Soy comes from some plant or something, doesn't it?

(I don't know, I've never delt with anything made with soy)

Aren't you killing a living thing there?

July 30, 2003

I actually do agree with the idea that wrestlers should be a bit more realistic. I think one reason Eddie is popular right now is that his character has some basic traits regardless of heel or face. The guy has never been a choirboy, never claimed to be.

This goes in line with something I always dislike...guys who hate each other in one fed going to another and suddenly being buddy buddy. Like Spike and the other Dudleys. They hated each other in ECW yet Spike debuts in the WWF and all is forgotten. Same thing with Booker and Steiner. If a guy hates another guy in one fed, there better be a damn good reason why he doesn't hate him anymore besides "it's just a different fed."

July 30, 2003

wow, you so smart mister goose. so smart in fact that you have an ankh as the symbol of some fantasy wrestler named the demon, complete with gothic style writing. yeah that makes the most sense ever. y'know. with the ankh being an egyptian symbol for life and reproduction, having nothing to do with the modern euro-goth-dark arts movement.

clearly i must be egotistical. because its easier to start insulting another person than logically countering their ideas.

actually, I have been logically countering your ideas. I never claimed I wasn't egotistical, and I also never claimed to know anything about ankhs and Gothic writing (though you must have a lot of free time in your busy training schedule to look so deeply into the matter). You contradicted yourself, and now try for a low blow, which proves that I insulted you. If you can be insulted, then you must have an ego, which means that you are not beyond the, what you call childish, concerns. Your attempted insult, which I consider childish since it has nothing to do with the argument at hand (and also tells me I did quite a job since you couldn't pick something out of there), does not bother me. Why, you may ask? because I really, really don't care. I just like the way the ankh looks. I think it looks cool, and that is all that matters when it comes to my fantasy wrestler.

I have pointed out several examples countering your arguments, as have some other posters here. Why don't you address these, and make your points less broad?

however, if you must nitpick, let's just say that my wrestler is alive, and likes to reproduce, and has roots from all around Europe and Egypt.

Edited July 30, 2003 by Goose749

July 30, 2003

and i can get all the same protein and nutrients via soy based products that take less resources to create and do not kill a living animal to produce.

Soy comes from some plant or something, doesn't it?

(I don't know, I've never delt with anything made with soy)

Aren't you killing a living thing there?

...good point.

<- FOR VEGETABLE RIGHTS

I still pose my question: If an owl kills a mouse for its food, should that owl suffer reprocussions for the murder of the mouse?

July 30, 2003

ndzen, you never countered any of my points. If you are going to try to convince me, at least argue with me properly and be specific instead of being too broad.

July 30, 2003

Actually, Heyman is totally different. Brock can talk about how he lost the fire, the intensity he once had and only Heyman can bring it back. Brock isn't strong on the mic and it would help get Heyman over as a cult leader, which in turn would also help Rhyno and TWGTT. Heyman should be mostly doing the mic work for Rhyno, but when you need Brock to cut a money promo, let Heyman do it. At least he shows more then one level of emotion in his promos.

And you don't find the idea that the supposed unstoppable 290 pound 'Next Big Thing', the raging man-beast and the best tag team in the federation all need a fat bald man with a stupid ponytail to both a)draw heel heat and b)win to be equally as ludicrous as all the McMahon bullshit? No way, I'm not buying it. It completely undermines all four wrestlers and it undermines the main event scene. At least Rhyno and Brock's ineptitude on the mic spares us from 20 minute promos on their part. Heyman, on the other hand has shown that he is prepared to rant on indefinitely, in the most boring way possible. He doesn't get his clients heel heat, he gets himself heel heat. If he wasn this supposed heat-magnet, how come it took months for Brock to actually draw any sort of reaction?

July 30, 2003

and i can get all the same protein and nutrients via soy based products that take less resources to create and do not kill a living animal to produce.

Soy comes from some plant or something, doesn't it?

(I don't know, I've never delt with anything made with soy)

Aren't you killing a living thing there?

...good point.

<- FOR VEGETABLE RIGHTS

That's one of the main points from vegetarians that I never quite understood.

July 30, 2003

edit...nevermind

July 30, 2003

and i can get all the same protein and nutrients via soy based products that take less resources to create and do not kill a living animal to produce.

Soy comes from some plant or something, doesn't it?

(I don't know, I've never delt with anything made with soy)

Aren't you killing a living thing there?

...good point.

<- FOR VEGETABLE RIGHTS

That's one of the main points from vegetarians that I never quite understood.

I don't know about you, but I'm sick and tired of having to breed and kill innocent vegetables for our food. We grow them in lines, as if they were in the army or something, just to separate and eat them. Well, I think that's disgusting! These vegetables were meant to be free!!!

For Heyman, you look at Lesnar. He had heat as a heel, with Heyman. He had less heat as a face, without Heyman. I fully understand not liking Heyman. I personally hate the guy. But he does seem to have a way with the wrestlers he manages. Because you know that if he's the manager, the wrestler is supposed to be an asshole. Granted, he may have his flaws when it comes to promo cutting, but he is still effective.

July 30, 2003

For Heyman, you look at Lesnar. He had heat as a heel, with Heyman. He had less heat as a face, without Heyman.

But thats simply not true, not true by a long shot. Lesnar only started to get consistently good heel heat in his feud with Taker, and a lot of that was due to him finally developing a good heel persona of his own rather than relying on cheap Heyman heat. And any reaction he got when he was with Heyman was dwarfed by the pops he started getting after he turned face.

July 30, 2003

You should take into account how flat out boring Brock was in the ring in the beginning.

July 30, 2003

True enough, but that has little bearing on the fact that supposed heat-getting mastermind Heyman managed to draw fuck-all heat on the wrestler he was supposed to be managing, and that using him as a focal point rather than Brock himself was a huge mistake back then and would be a huge mistake now.

So who turns heel?

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