Is Michaels vs. Jericho overrated?

[Guest FileCabinet]

The first time I watched Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels from WrestleMania, I really liked it. I felt like I had just seen a great match. I had even cheered Jericho on. By the time WrestleMania finished, I felt like watching this match over again. Unfortunately after repeated viewings, I have noticed the flaws from this match. The main flaw, other than the pointless leg work at the beginning of the match, is Shawn’s lack of long-term selling.

 

The story of the match: this was Jericho’s chance to step out of HBK’s shadow. In order to beat him, he should go after the injury that kept Michaels out of the ring for years. The injured body part that forced him to retire: his back. Jericho attacked Michaels with suplexes and backbreakers. When they were on the outside, he even picked up Michaels and slammed his back into the ring post. He drilled his knee in to Shawn’s back and did the Walls of Jericho about three times.

 

The match would’ve been fine if Shawn had sold his back. For a man who's had his back beaten for over 10 minutes, he didn't seem like it was under a large amount of pain. After the match he sold his back and a kick to the private parts better than anything during the match.

 

I dislike it when someone doesn’t sell a body part that’s been worked on. But Michaels insulted me. During the match, he completely contradicted the work on his back. He did, not one, but TWO kip-ups. Jericho tried the Walls, but Michaels swung his hips and flipped him in a reversal that required lower back strength. Michaels clearly uses strength from his back to put Jericho into a backslide. This even caused J.R. to say “How in the world get the strength to do that?” or something like that. Of course, the match ended with a roll-up that requires more energy from his back.

 

The story of working on Shawn’s back is ruined by his constant no-selling. He makes all the back work, or most of the match, pointless. The move execution, nearfalls, and the crowd were good. The match also received a good amount of time.

 

I’m surprised at the amount of people that vote for Shawn vs. Jericho as a Match of the Year candidate. I’m shocked at the amount of people that rate this match higher than ****. After watching this match more than 5 times in the last two months, I have come to my conclusion on a fair star rating for this match: no higher than ***. Maybe ** ¾.

 

I’m not being harsh on my rating with this match. I’m being fair to any better matches from this year that are overlooked as Match of the Year candidates. I suggest that people watch this match again to come up with a good opinion about Shawn's selling and this match.

 

Now what do you think? Do you think this match deserves more than ***? Do you think this match is the **** classic that others say? Why?

[Adam 0]

This is the ****+ classic that everyone says it is because of mny factors:

1. No interference at all

2. Brilliant Psychology

3. Given correct amout of time

4. Great wrestling, I don't think their was a blown spot, although I could be wrong

5. It flowed, no spots where you just went 'what the hell?'

6. Michaels entrance

7. The AMAZINGLY AWESOME Build up.

 

There was only one beef that I had, and that was the finish, a finish that will be debated over for years.

 

Brilliant match, just awesome. How you can not give that ****+ is beyond me.

[Guest nWoScorpion]

::Slaps you for calling this match **3/4::

 

This is like every point i make in ana rguent about internet people. NO ONE IS EVER SATITSFIED.

 

Unless you were talking about the REMATCH, then thats different.

[Guest FileCabinet]

This is the ****+ classic that everyone says it is because of mny factors:

2. Brilliant Psychology

5. It flowed, no spots where you just went 'what the hell?'

7. The AMAZINGLY AWESOME Build up.

 

2. & 7. I've already pointed out the major flaws in the psychology and build-up. They were messed up because of Shawn's lack of selling. Most of the match has Jericho beating on his back. If Shawn shows little to no amount of pain on his back, doesn't it mess up the psychology? If he does roll-ups, reversals, or other things that require strength from his back, doesn't it contradict all the back work?

 

5. The kip-ups, the reversal of the Walls, and the backslide all made me wonder "what the hell?"

[Guest Choken One]

That match is NOT over rated.

 

If it leaves me hyperventalizing during the match...it's gold.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I don't feel that the match is overrated either. These two match up soooo well, and this feud was actually build up correctly. They were given the proper amount of time for the match as well. Also I think that if you give this match anything less than **** your being way too over critical and that is just obserd.

[Guest FileCabinet]

The match depended on Shawn's selling to make the work look meaningful. He didn't sell the back and caused most of the work to look pointless. The poor selling, which contradicted the back work, effected the match in a negative way and prevents it from touching ****. I'm not being absurd or over critical when rating this match. I'm just pointing out that I believe it is overrated since too many people overlook Shawn's lack of selling and its effects, and slap a ****+ rating on it.

[Guest JaKyL25]

I sort of agree with FileCabinet. You guys are just overlooking a huge flaw in the match that he's pointed out exists AND that he's pointed out hurts the drama of the match. I myself have a similar beef with Shawn in the second Ladder match with Razor at Summerslam '95--Razor works Shawn's legs for like 20 minutes, then when Shawn goes on offense it's like he just showed up for the match. And this is a fellow Clique member he's up against--you'd think he'd be more courteous. This alone robs that match from classic status IMO.

 

As for HBK vs. Jericho from Mania, I still give the match ****. Look at it this way, FC--what would the match rating be IF Michaels had sold properly? About ****1/2. The complete lack of making Jericho's offense seem to have any lasting effects merely drops the match 1/2*. I mean, it's not like he NO-SOLD everything, there was just no long-term selling. It's still an awesome emotional match. I slightly preferred Brock vs. Angle as Mania MotN, however.

[Guest Gatornibs]

That packaged video they show before match-BEST video EVER. I WANTED TO BE LIKE YOU SHAWN!

[Guest nWoScorpion]

Who Cares about how much selling HBK did? I was a little pre-occupied marking the fuck out than look at that kind of thing.

 

And NO ONE Complains when Bret Hart no sold almost everything HBK Did to him at WM 12 (in the first 30 minutes at least) and THAT Was still ****+

Edited August 2, 2003 by nWoScorpion

[Kapoutman 0]

I loved the match. My only complain is the finish, much like anybody.

[Guest JaKyL25]

Who Cares about how much selling HBK did? I was a little pre-occupied marking the fuck out than look at that kind of thing.

 

And NO ONE Complains when Bret Hart no sold almost everything HBK Did to him at WM 12 (in the first 30 minutes at least) and THAT Was still ****+

Ummm...I don't know about you, but I see people complain about the first half of the WM 12 Iron Man match whenever it's brought up for discussion. Bret was being unprofessional in that situation, agreed.

 

I'd like the able to mark the fuck out, but when people don't sell properly, it REALLY brings me out of it.

 

The only thing I can offer to make the match more acceptible is to say that HBK, KNOWING he had a bad back and that it would be a target, didn't come back until he was 100% sure that his back was stronger than ever, and on top of that he wrestles so infrequently that his back is in tip-top condition for Mania. Thus, it would take a lot more backwork to require selling.

[Guest nWoScorpion]

Whoops, I better rephrase that.

 

Just because the selling wasn't top notch means it doesn't disserve to be a **** match. Take the Bret/HBK WM 12 iron man match for example. Bret sold like shit, and it was still a really good match.

[Guest JaKyL25]

Again, agreed. I'm just saying that the flaws in selling in BOTH matches is what drops them from around ****1/2 to a "mere" ****.

 

I still really like both matches. I just don't LOVE them.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

3.5 stars

[Guest FileCabinet]

As for HBK vs. Jericho from Mania, I still give the match ****.  Look at it this way, FC--what would the match rating be IF Michaels had sold properly?  About ****1/2.  The complete lack of making Jericho's offense seem to have any lasting effects merely drops the match 1/2*.

The match DID drop by 1/2* because of Shawn's poor selling. However, the lack of selling effected the story of the match as well. He not only forgot to sell the back, but also did things that completely negated the work. He did reversals that made no sense. After a flying forearm from Jericho, he did a kip-up without any problems and moved on to his own offense . The finishing roll-up was pretty bad too. These poor choices didn't go along with what the match was about. I took another 1/2* off for that.

 

The main part of the story revolved around Shawn's back. What he did made all of Jericho's work on the back look weak and pointless. The story was effected in a negative way and I dropped it an extra 1/4*. Subtract another 1/4* for the leg work which added nothing and didn't really make sense since he went straight to the figure-four without any build-up at all. Now you've got a *** match.

 

Look at it this way: Pretend Jericho no-sold the leg work at the beginning and contradicted the work done on it. It wouldn't effect the match as badly as Shawn's lack of selling did because, in the end, it wasn't important for the match. But the story revolved around Shawn's back. Therefore since he no-sells the back work, it hurts the match VERY badly.

 

The match was pretty good though. I'm not trying to say its bad. The other part of the story, with Jericho trying to prove he's better at doing Shawn's moves and poses was well-done. Jericho's work on the back and the build-up to his submission move was good. The nearfalls were great, the match received enough time, and the crowd heat was good. Unfortunately, Shawn's poor selling had a negative effect on this match.

[Guest nWoScorpion]

Question: Since WHEN Did Jericho do anything effective to the back besides the Walls of Jericho? Sure He does a few elbow drops, but I really can't think of anything he DOES do that leads to a finish via submission.

 

Sometimes the attack of one body part can be a positive or negative.

 

Backs Positive: Helps Jerichos chances of winning with the Walls.

 

Backs Negative: Makes HBK look useless, and would drag the match rating to nothing, since it would be all rest holds and kicking, with HBK hobbling around doing nothing to excite the crowd, rendering the match a snore-fest.

 

and Jericho is NOT exactly the power-house that can dish out punishment like say, Kane or Triple H.

[Guest FileCabinet]

Question: Since WHEN Did Jericho do anything effective to the back besides the Walls of Jericho? Sure He does a few elbow drops, but I really can't think of anything he DOES do that leads to a finish via submission.

Perhaps you should watch the match again since most of the time was used to build up to the Walls of Jericho. He did a hell of a lot more than just a few elbow drops. As stated before, he did different types of suplexes, backbreakers, a couple of submission moves, and more to weaken Shawn's back.

 

Backs Negative: Makes HBK look useless, and would drag the match rating to nothing, since it would be all rest holds and kicking, with HBK hobbling around doing nothing to excite the crowd, rendering the match a snore-fest.

I never said Michaels couldn't do anything. I honestly wouldn't have minded if he did things like the kip-up and sold the pain of his back. Instead he did a kip-up and showed no signs of an injured back. Seconds later, he did the kip-up again. "What the hell?" I find that insulting to the viewer, who had to sit through 10+ minutes of back work just to see it didn't have any effect.

[Guest nWoScorpion]

I never caught most of the back work. If I like a match I don't watch it over and over, because after a while it gets boring. Of course, it will take quite a lot of times to find something great to suck, unless someone's jumping on an assholes band wagon.

 

HBK ALWAYS has done the kip up to show he's back in the match. It's called an Adrenaline rush. He even did it at SSlam last year, when the STORY of the match was his back. The announcers have dropped the "Can his back take much more of this" gimmick 7-8 months ago.

[Guest FileCabinet]

HBK ALWAYS has done the kip up to show he's back in the match. It's called an Adrenaline rush.

I really don't like the "adrenaline rush" excuse. I could understand if an adrenaline rush allowed him to do SOME things that required energy from his injured back. However I don't want to see him completely ignore 10+ minutes of back work and just hear this excuse for his poor selling.

 

The announcers have dropped the "Can his back take much more of this" gimmick 7-8 months ago.

That doesn't really change anything. His back is still his weak spot and if someone attacks that body part, he should sell it. Not ignore it, do several things that negate the work, and call it an "adrenaline rush".

[Guest nWoScorpion]

No one complains when Hogan "Hulks Up", Wariror "No Sells Up" and Undertaker no sells all (ok they complaina bout him)

 

I can understand the no selling being a bad thing, but not enough to make it on level with BOOKER T v. HHH (**1/2 my rating for the match)