The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Guest Brian]

How could I forget Angelus. But again, you've got three players being manipulated by one figure, although Angelus and the Beast are supremely badass. And I sorta liked the fact that Angelus killed the Beast.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I KILL YOU!!!!11

 

*wraps hands around computer screen; trying to virtually strangle Brain*

[Guest Brian]

Was Lorne supposed to leave after this season? The imdb guide has him as the only current cast member listed as ending their role in 2004.

[dubq 0]

Dude, take IMDB with a grain of salt. All of their information is submitted by various users.

[dubq 0]

Ok, I hate the OC

Thank fucking god I'm not the only one..

[LaParkaMarka 0]

Ok, I hate the OC

Thank fucking god I'm not the only one..

I do too, and I'm 99% sure Mole hates it.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I hate it too. Like we really needed another 90210 or Melrose Place??

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

So who wants to go into the OC thread and start a war? We would CRUSH THEM!~!~!!!!~~~!!! Them, and their teen non-supernatural, non-Joss Whedon, melodramatic and trying-to-be-smart-but-can't-quite-make-it-cause-they're-too-focused-on-being-a-pseudo-soap-and-hip-and-trendy-rather-than-developing-anything-truly-interesting-or-metaphoric asses!

 

RRR: Hasn't actually seen a full episode/segment/minute of the OC, but is spot-on anyways.

[Mole 0]

Ok, I hate the OC

Thank fucking god I'm not the only one..

I do too, and I'm 99% sure Mole hates it.

Oh GoD, I HATE THAT FUCKIN SHOW!!!!!

 

What really pisses me off is that the OCrap uses the "humor/drama" stuff. If I am not mistaken, Buffy was one of the first shows to use it. Most of the OCrap viewers don't like Buffy/Angel, well the ones I talk to. But little do they know, their shows "formula" is taken after Buffy.

 

Stupid shits.

[Anakin Flair 0]

From Buffy.nu, but take this with a grain of salt:

First ANGEL TV Movie May Hit in September

From Mediasharx.com - By Marcus Ferrell - 2004-04-23rd

 

Scooper ’Daybill’ returned with some news from the ANGEL front:

 

The WB is working on a new stand-alone telemovie, ANGEL, to air tentatively in September. The first two-hour pic is going to essentially launch the series as a sequence of films - different villain, different storyline, each one.

 

The first is going to tie-in with the events of the series final episode. The season ender is going to go out with a huge cliffhanger, and we’ll have to wait till September to find out how it all ends.

 

Eliza Dushku is in talks to appear in the telemovies, as Faith, the vampire slayer. Her series TRU CALLING isn’t going to be picked up for a second season, so I assume she jumped at it.

 

There’s no titles for these Angel films yet, but all six - bi-monthly over a period of a year - will be something like ANGEL: OUTLAWED, or ANGEL: DOMINION. You get the pic.

 

What’s interesting is, Joss Whedon’s not going to have much to do with the first couple. He’s apparently doing a movie for Universal. Wonder how that’s going to go down with fans?

 

I guess that big truck - which i again saw last week driving around - did something to save this show.

 

How valid is this report? Well, Daybill hasn’t failed us before, but September seems like too quick a turnaround for a tv movie, although not altogether impossible. It’s possible that the first could be filmed after a short break, but I would think that the principal cast would want to get away from these characters for a while.

 

The finale Daybill speaks of also lines up with an April 17 report from our friends over at Spoiler Slayer, where they said that the series will likely end on a cliffhanger.

 

Joss Whedon’s lack of involvement - I wouldn’t be surprised. The movie Daybill speaks of is, of course, the film version of FIREFLY, which is being fasttracked at Universal. However, if these movies go forward, I have no doubt that some of the ANGEL/Mutant Enemy regulars will return.

 

Updated: The boys and girls over at Whedonesque had a good point that contradicts the report (that I, I’m ashamed to say, didn’t think of) - some places have already reported that TRU CALLING will be picked up for another season, even though networks seem to like to mess with executive producers’ minds and tell them they’re being renewed when they haven’t been. Regardless, remember that this report is a rumor. Take nothing as absolute fact until you hear it from the Frog.

 

If you are an insider and you would like to graciously share some information with us, please don’t hesitate to contact us.

[spiny norman 0]

I was watching Fool For Love recently, and I just noticed something which I want cleared up here. I haven't seen every Angel episode, so perhaps I missed something, or perhaps this is a continuity error.

 

In Fool For Love, when Spike kills his first slayer, it is during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900. However, in Becoming Angel got his soul in 1898. So why did he hang around with them for at least two years after he got his soul? In Fool For Love there is a lot of dissent between him and Spike: is that because Angel has his soul and is trying to hide it? Is it ever explained, or is it just a big fat mistake?

 

Sorry, it just bugged me when I saw it.

[Mole 0]

I was watching Fool For Love recently, and I just noticed something which I want cleared up here. I haven't seen every Angel episode, so perhaps I missed something, or perhaps this is a continuity error.

 

In Fool For Love, when Spike kills his first slayer, it is during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900. However, in Becoming Angel got his soul in 1898. So why did he hang around with them for at least two years after he got his soul? In Fool For Love there is a lot of dissent between him and Spike: is that because Angel has his soul and is trying to hide it? Is it ever explained, or is it just a big fat mistake?

 

Sorry, it just bugged me when I saw it.

WELLL, you need to see "Darla" from Angel season 2.

 

Basically after Angel got his soul, Darla didn't want anything to do with him. But Angel came back a year or two later and wanted to be with Darla again. If you notice in "Fool for Love" Angel isn't very happy because he doesn't like what is going on.

 

Angel had been killing/feeding humans, but they were just rapist, killers, etc. Darla noticed that, got him a nice little baby to eat, but Angel didn't want to do it because of the nice soul he has.

 

Quick summary, but make sense?

[Mole 0]

So who wants to go into the OC thread and start a war?  We would CRUSH THEM!~!~!!!!~~~!!!  Them, and their teen non-supernatural, non-Joss Whedon, melodramatic and trying-to-be-smart-but-can't-quite-make-it-cause-they're-too-focused-on-being-a-pseudo-soap-and-hip-and-trendy-rather-than-developing-anything-truly-interesting-or-metaphoric asses!

 

RRR: Hasn't actually seen a full episode/segment/minute of the OC, but is spot-on anyways.

I forgot about this, but I already tried a one man attack against the OCrap thread.

 

Angel's better

 

:runs away:

Bastard! We don't need your vampireness in this thread.

 

And again, I say...GO LUKE~!

 

THE BEAST is better than Luke.

 

THE BEAST looks like the bastard love child of Lord Zed and that Ooze guy from the power rangers movie.

THE BEAST will destroy anything in its path.

[Anya 0]

Angel had been killing/feeding humans, but they were just rapist, killers, etc.

 

 

I hate that. He had told Buffy he hadn't feed on a human since he got his soul......

[spiny norman 0]

I was watching Fool For Love recently, and I just noticed something which I want cleared up here. I haven't seen every Angel episode, so perhaps I missed something, or perhaps this is a continuity error.

 

In Fool For Love, when Spike kills his first slayer, it is during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900. However, in Becoming Angel got his soul in 1898. So why did he hang around with them for at least two years after he got his soul? In Fool For Love there is a lot of dissent between him and Spike: is that because Angel has his soul and is trying to hide it? Is it ever explained, or is it just a big fat mistake?

 

Sorry, it just bugged me when I saw it.

WELLL, you need to see "Darla" from Angel season 2.

 

Basically after Angel got his soul, Darla didn't want anything to do with him. But Angel came back a year or two later and wanted to be with Darla again. If you notice in "Fool for Love" Angel isn't very happy because he doesn't like what is going on.

 

Angel had been killing/feeding humans, but they were just rapist, killers, etc. Darla noticed that, got him a nice little baby to eat, but Angel didn't want to do it because of the nice soul he has.

 

Quick summary, but make sense?

Ahk, thanks for that.

 

Recently a TV station here played Season Two but I missed that episode. I thought maybe that explains Angel's behaviour in that flashback.

 

Thanks again.

[Mole 0]

Angel had been killing/feeding humans, but they were just rapist, killers, etc.

 

 

I hate that. He had told Buffy he hadn't feed on a human since he got his soul......

Guys will tell a girl anything to get them in the sack.

[Mole 0]

I never realized how good "Peace Out" was until I watched it again tonight. And while I was watching it, I thought of a few things that came to my mind about the series.

 

1. If you want to be technical, it was Prof. Sydel(sp) who started the chain in events so Team Angel would be in W&H.

 

2. Each season, there has been a Big Bad character who was lost. Season 2, Darla. Season 3, Holtz. Season 4, Jasmine and Connor. Season 5, Illyria.

 

3. Jasmine hid Cordy because she was one of the two people who could kill her. That is why Connor was able to kill her; he was her parent and so was Cordy so that is why Jasmine was scared of her.

 

4. Season 5 is the first season when the Powers That Be aren't guiding Angel. Well it happened once they signed with W&H, the PTB said "fuck you, we gave you Jasmine." And that whole deal with the Devil thing Areacode was talking about.

 

5. Angel's mythology is SO much deeper than Buffys.

 

6. The reason Connor didn't say anything to Angel is because he is happy. From "Peace Out," Connor says something like this, "I knew she was a lie. My whole life is based on lies, but I just thought this one was better than the others.(Jasmine's world) Connor has a GREAT life right now, he knows it is a lie but it is better than all of the others.

 

Damn, I love being a geek.

[Guest Brian]

I thought the Powers That Be were trying to send him a signal that he was doing the wrong thing by giving him those moments with Cordy?

[Mole 0]

Crap, I forgot about that.

 

I am not sure then.

[Guest Brian]

I figure, the Powers that be knew what was up in terms of the Apocalypse, but wanted Angel to make the choice on his own. Free will's been emphasized pretty heavily in Whedon shows, the fact that no prophesy is written in stone (even though some of them probably are literally). Anyways, I think that may have been their last attempt.

 

But I'm still stuck on whether the Senior Partners lured Angel Inc. in just to get Illyria into Fred. I mean, Gunn was timed to lose his knowledge, and Fred was positioned to work with Knox, but was that the intention. Or did Illyria backfire on them, in a way? Because they went right back to Gunn, and that means that they still have something planned for him, which is what they were hinting at in the last episode of season 4, that they had something in-store for him and that he had a purpose. So has he fulfilled it?

[Golgo 13 0]

I still don't buy that Jasmine was an agent of the Powers anyway. Unless it was explained in full somewhere and I forgot about it, I always thought that Jasmine, as one of the several Powers (in something similar to the Greek Pantheon), went rogue and carried out her plan against the wishes, or without the knowledge, of the others. So the others wouldn't care if AI and the world rebelled against her.

 

That said, Angel letting himself get lured in and swallowed by the beast would've been enough for the Powers to turn on him (which they never truly did, so it's a moot point anyway).

 

I should mention that I never liked the whole explanation for Jasmine, at least as far as the whole 'everything in the last five years has been predetermined' aspect is concerned. Things would've been so much easier to swallow if it was just the Beast that had to be explained, if going by the allegedly original storyline, instead of the farther fetched machinations of Jasmine.

 

One thing is for certain, is that W&H should've had a larger role during that whole time period. It's something I toyed with in my mind, but it would've been preferable had they been revealed to be behind Jasmine's rise, in league with Sahjhan and Prof. Siedel (who can be explained as disciples of Jasmine, much like Skip). I think it would've been perfect if that's how Lindsey returned, seeking vengeance on AI for ruining his 'special project' that he began by resurrecting Darla. I hope ME plays up W&H's definitive role in all that, instead of living with a bunch of fan's pipe dream explanations, but I doubt it.

 

Onto what Brian said, I'd say getting Angel in also has the bonus of trying to corrupt or destory him again (with the failsafe that was nearly unleashed by Lindsey and Eve earlier this season). But Illyria itself probably was a backfired plan.

 

I'd say Gunn did what was needed of him, although Hamilton still trying to retrieve him from the torture dimension, I believe without Angel even asking him, puts that into doubt. Although one of the evilish lawyers could've done the same thing, Gunn putting into motion Fred's death puts more impact into it, especially in his previously mentioned selfish motives, making it harder of a blow to recover from and possibly splitting the group. Which is why it had to be Gunn. The question remains whether there's more of a purpose for him as far as the Senior Partners are concerned.

[Mole 0]

Damn, it is 9AM and you guys are making me think too much.

 

But I'm still stuck on whether the Senior Partners lured Angel Inc. in just to get Illyria into Fred

Hmmm, this is the question of the day for me. I am not sure about the SP/Illyria/Fred deal. However, Pylea's religion was run by Wolf Ram and Hart.

 

I mean, Gunn was timed to lose his knowledge, and Fred was positioned to work with Knox, but was that the intention. Or did Illyria backfire on them, in a way? Because they went right back to Gunn, and that means that they still have something planned for him, which is what they were hinting at in the last episode of season 4, that they had something in-store for him and that he had a purpose. So has he fulfilled it?

I have two ideas about that.

1) Gunn played a starting role into events that lead up to Connor being born, which eventually caused Angel to becoming CEO of W&H. This is how I look at it: when Wes first started his downhill fall towards his darkside, it was in "Waiting in the Wings" when he saw Fred and Gunn were together. Once he saw them together, he got really depressed and didn't open up to anyone. Eventually he found about the "Father Will Kill the Son" deal but didn't want to tell anyone. Now this is a BIG if, but if Gunn never got with Fred and Wes was the one who ended up with her, then he might have told Fred about the "prophecy." Then he wouldn't have kidnapped Connor, which lead to him being taken away, etc.

 

2) Remember the whole "distracting Angel while this Apacolypse is coming" deal? Well, Angel will try to get Gunn out of the Hell dimension. He will be distracted from saving the world by getting Gunn.

 

I still don't buy that Jasmine was an agent of the Powers anyway. Unless it was explained in full somewhere and I forgot about it, I always thought that Jasmine, as one of the several Powers (in something similar to the Greek Pantheon), went rogue and carried out her plan against the wishes, or without the knowledge, of the others. So the others wouldn't care if AI and the world rebelled against her.

I think she was apart of the PTB.

 

Once Angel killed her, he had no connections to the PTB. Granted Cordy was out cold, but let's forget about that right now. Since Angel made the deal with W&H (the Devil) the PTB (GoD) didn't want anything to do with him.

 

They gave him a "GoD" and he killed it.

 

I should mention that I never liked the whole explanation for Jasmine, at least as far as the whole 'everything in the last five years has been predetermined' aspect is concerned. Things would've been so much easier to swallow if it was just the Beast that had to be explained, if going by the allegedly original storyline, instead of the farther fetched machinations of Jasmine.

Why not? It makes PERFECT sense. Then again, I love the whole "everything happens for a reason" bit.

 

Okay, so, these are the events that lead up to Jasmine coming here.

 

Darla is brought back, her and Angel fuck, Darla is pregnent, Connor is born, Wes steals Connor, Connor comes back older, Connor and Cordy bang, Cordy is pregnent, Jasmine is born.

 

Team Angel to to Pylea, bring back Fred, Fred and Gunn get together (which connects Wes stealing Connor).

 

Doyle has the visions, Doyle gives the visions to Cordy, Cordy has visions becomes a demon, Cordy proves herself to the PTB, Cordy becomes a higher being, Cordy comes back and finds comfort in Connor (If Cordy had never been the higher being, then her and Angel would have been together. Connor and Cordy wouldn't have banged then.) Cordy and Connor bang, Cordy is pregnent, Jasmine comes out.

 

I could go on and on, but I have to go to work. I'll finish this later. But since work will be so boring, I'll think of this stuff all day. Damn, I love being a geek.

[Golgo 13 0]

Although it couldn't be helped with them having to change the storyline around, Jasmine was never needed. Angel always had the Powers by his side, without one being sent down from the heavens to hammer it in the viewers' heads. Connor possibly would've still become disaffected with the world, and Angel would still be forced to take him out, and Angel would've lost faith and hope in God just the same. The metaphor would still get across, only not so blatantly.

 

Even if Jasmine was working on behalf of the Powers, it seems pretty rotten of the PTB to do that, as has been established. Even if Joss' atheism was coming into play here, it's fairly well-known that the Powers thus far have been established as benevolent, not so aggressive beings. It doesn't seem like them to send down Jasmine, with the selfish motives in her egomania, bliss through force and people eating ways to 'save' earth.

 

Onto the whole predestination thing. Firstly, I never liked 'deus ex machina' explanations in works of literature, etc, which is all I see fate and predestination as in the Angel mythos. I am typically intrigued by stuff like this, but in Angel it bugs me a little bit. It makes the hero seem really incompetent that he can't make these decisions for himself, it makes Angel look as if he truly doesn't have control over his own destiny. Time after time supposedly outside forces have sent him moments of clarity, or worse, outright saved his ass.

 

As much as I absolutely love 'Angel,' especially over the past three seasons, the principal characters were a little better when you thought they were actually in control of themselves, with more human will being the driving force behind the major decisions and events, and ultimately the consequences. Not because of some preordained sequence of events and neck breaking shoves in the right direction from the previously mentioned outside forces.

 

As I said, it would have been a lot easier to swallow had there been less 'degrees of separation,' for lack of a better term, preferably stopping at the Beast and Cordy and possibly with a more earthly puppet master that we could identify with more easily. But once Jasmine was brought in it got a little more far fetched and less realistic (yes, I am aware I'm talking about a universe with vampires running around). All in all, the big reveal of Angel and crew being moved around like pawns on a chessboard, especially for so freaking long, just didn't sit right with me.

[Hank Kingsley 0]

By the way, I figured out why Angel & Co. didn't mourn Cordy's death in either Why We Fight or Smile Time. On whedonesque.com they have deleted scenes and notes from the shooting script of "You're Welcome", and this is how the script says the show ended:

 

She kisses him -- he responds, the two of them sinking into

each other warmly. A few seconds, then they break apart, and

Cordy leaves.

 

Off Angel...

 

BLACK OUT

 

END OF SHOW

 

So, they kept it a surprise (like Lindsay), and since Goddard & DeKnight obviously wrote episode 13 before episode 12 aired, they didn't know about her death. Same with Ben Edlund for Smile Time.

 

At least, that's the best reason I can think of.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Wes never would have "got" with Fred in Season 3 because of what he did in "Billy". Gunn telling Fred to knock him out vs. Wes trying to kill her, is what turned Fred towards Gunn and away from Wes.

 

JASMINE

I’m the one who’s honored. By Cordelia… and by all of

you. I can’t tell you how good it is to be back.

 

She sits on the edge of Cordelia’s bed and everyone gathers around,

sitting in various chairs and on the floor in front of her.

 

WESLEY

Back? Then you’ve been here before?

 

JASMINE

Yes. In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings

walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all

quarters: the seeds of what would come to be known as

good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became

darkness and the malevolent among us grew stronger.

The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had

the will to resist left this place but we remained ever

watchful.

 

GUNN

You’re a Power That… Was?

 

JASMINE

(smiles)

But then something new emerged from deep inside the

earth— neither demon nor god.

 

WESLEY

Man.

 

JASMINE

(nods)

And it seemed, for a time, that through this new race, a

balance might be restored.

 

FRED

I guess we really let you down.

 

JASMINE

But you didn’t. It was we who failed you. We became little

more than observers. I could no longer bear to just watch.

All the suffering… I had to find a way back. But first, I

needed a miracle.

 

She lays her hand on Connor’s cheek.

 

JASMINE

And so I arranged one. Through you, Angel. Through

Darla. That is where my parentage began. Two

vampires— creatures once human, corrupted by

darkness— and you with a soul. A miracle already.

 

ANGEL

But how?

 

JASMINE

Through Lorne.

 

LORNE

Huh?

 

JASMINE

The day Lorne sent Angel and human Darla into the trials

to earn a new chance at life.

 

ANGEL

I failed.

 

JASMINE

No, you earned that life and there it is. (points at Connor)

All these events unfolded that I might re-enter this physical

plane.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

However, we know that Jasmine is not truthful here. This is proven by:

 

1. Her physical appearance is a lie: Her "real" face is rotted. Not to mention SHE lies, so everything she says is suspect.

 

2. She kills people: In the Whedonverse, those whom kill innocent people - especially for selfish intentions - are bad.

 

3. The "other" world: she has done this before, and it brought that world to its knees to where they were obsessed and posessive of her. They spent all their time and resources in worshiping her. Clearly, she wasn't just focused on saving Earth if she already had gone to another world first.

 

4. She wanted to be worshiped: as evidenced by the other world and the reactions of those whom seen her. By the end, they all wanted to build giant temples for her and she wanted it (I believe she specifically asked for it)

 

5. Saintly Darla tried to tell Connor not to take an innocent life. She did not want Jasmine being born.

 

6. Her method of being: How many people had to be killed, how much suffering did people have to endure, to create Jasmine? It doesn't seem very righteous to have that high of a cost and then say "eh... I'll make it up to you later".

 

7. Skip. The Beast. Evil Cordy.: Their attitudes and approaches were not reflective of "good" Jasmine.

[Guest Brian]

Was Skip an agent of Jasmine or was he just trying to get revenge with Angel over Billy?

 

I agree with KOS, that like they emphasized with Sahjun saying to Connor, that there still is a lot of free will involved in everything. Even though sometimes the prophesies do come true, people make their own choices in the end.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I'm beginning to think that Jasmine represents the Devil. She was in Heaven, but she fell and became a fallen angel. People see her as beautiful when she's really ugly. She spreads lies about how she's there for good, but she's not.

 

If that's true and Jasmine really did have a hand in her own birth. Then Angel Inc really did have a choice in the matter. The Devil doesn't make you do things. He plants the seed and you choose to. So Jasmine planted seeds and Angel Inc. went with it. If they didn't she just would have tried something else.

 

It says a lot about free will and a lot about how people can be manipulated.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

Ok guys, here is my theory on the mythology.

 

The Senior Partners are the Powers That Be, and vice versa.

 

They play off both sides to keep the world in balance, because if you go too far "Good" (like Jasmine tried to do) or too far "Evil" (like The First, for example, who W&H helped defeat with the amulet), everything gets fucked up. Remember, Holland Manners established that evil lives in all of us. I think Jasmine went rogue and tried to buck this system by doing Good (after all, isn't Good good?). It's always a back and forth ping pong game to keep the world in balanace, because you cannot have a Good world without any Evil, and neither Evil with Good. Kind of like Palpatine/Sidious from the SW Prequels, but there's no "evil" agenda, just a neutral one.

[Max Danger 0]

Damn Neutralites! *shakes fist*