The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Jingus 0]

In the Season 5 DVD commentaries, they said that McNab got the title credit basically as a thank-you for being so damn good in her part and for playing that part for eight years, which is a loooooong time to basically be known for playing just one role. It had nothing to do with the character's prominence on the show.

 

I thought Dawn was fascinating in s5, but in later seasons it seemed like the writers never developed her character very much. That being said, Michelle Trachtenberg did as good a job as anyone could've with the part, I don't think any of the blame for Dawn being annoying should fall on her.

[Guest Brian]

Rudo and Brian tag team to get the "Girl in Question":

 

briancasmath: You know what I love about this season: variety. It may take away from the threading of stories like in a normal season, but that all still stays in the background. I want to make a quick comment about the last episode before we get started, that Illyria says: " If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition." That is so much apart of this episode, Angel's last grasp to find something to fight for that he fought for in the past, a common thread. And he's losing that.

briancasmath: Oh yeah, we can start.

ABlueEyedSamurai: spikes addiction to video games is fantastic

ABlueEyedSamurai: i think angel wanted to fight on a grander scale - he was getting tired of the small fight, he was tired of being a pawn - he wanted to be a player

briancasmath: He's not addicted to the same toys of power as Angel.

ABlueEyedSamurai: angels previous ambition was to help the helpless, save the world one person at a time.

briancasmath: I'm telling you, he's spent the whole time looking for something to fight for. His inspiration at one point was family, which crumbled in Wolfram and Hart. This is a chance to recapture that using Buffy.

briancasmath: His first love, his first reason.

ABlueEyedSamurai: harmony looks spanktacular in that pick number

ABlueEyedSamurai: *pink

briancasmath: He's finally realizing he does because it's right. If nothing you do matters, than what matters is what you do.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "on second thought, have at it"

briancasmath: "Just like old times"

ABlueEyedSamurai: i like how they build buffy up as this great thing, and then essentially break her down as being nothing but a plaything

briancasmath: I love Spike's flashback.

ABlueEyedSamurai: CHAO~!!!

ABlueEyedSamurai: first sign of pure absurdity in this eps

briancasmath: This is just absolutely over the top.

briancasmath: The glove slap.

briancasmath: The wee sticks.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "look at what he did to me shirt" boreanez's finest lucky charms impression

ABlueEyedSamurai: did they, like, digitally alter amy ackers eyes?

briancasmath: Illyria is just totally lost in the world. She's like a slayer, with the power but no real way of being able to use it. Different from the rest of the world, having to live seperately.

briancasmath: Lorne's an alcoholic.

ABlueEyedSamurai: but hes a fun alcoholic

briancasmath: Fred's parents. Yeah.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i love how this parents thing brings a gravity to her death

ABlueEyedSamurai: stwong baaad!

briancasmath: Angel and Spike trying to enter at the same time.

ABlueEyedSamurai: gotta love davids look there after going through the door... smoooth as silk

briancasmath: And both answering Buffy at the same time.

briancasmath: Finishing each other's thoughts.

briancasmath: "It's worse."

ABlueEyedSamurai: they're exactly the same "today" as they were "then"

ABlueEyedSamurai: "little bit"~!

briancasmath: I love how they use the Immortal to reflect on Angel and Spike.

ABlueEyedSamurai: SONNOFABITCH!

ABlueEyedSamurai: "nuns are your thing, everyone knows that"

ABlueEyedSamurai: this is so freakin quotable

briancasmath: " She'd never fall for a centuries-old guy with a dark past who may or may not be evil."

ABlueEyedSamurai: wow

ABlueEyedSamurai: just...wow...

ABlueEyedSamurai: the horror in wes's eyes was fucking insane

ABlueEyedSamurai: when illyria walked in as fred

briancasmath: In AHITW, Fred says, " I need you to talk to my parents. They have to know I wasn't scared, that it was quick. That I wasn't scared."

briancasmath: Did Angel just call Spike "Blondie Bear".

ABlueEyedSamurai: he did

ABlueEyedSamurai: spike and angel remind me of sawyer and jack from lost

ABlueEyedSamurai: like, a lot

briancasmath: I love the slo-mo fight scene with the music.

ABlueEyedSamurai: they've never done anything like this before

ABlueEyedSamurai: who wrote this eps??

ABlueEyedSamurai: or directed, for that matter.

briancasmath: That's the same butler from earlier in the ep who watched him receive the head.

briancasmath: Hitting each other was awesome.

briancasmath: Written by DeKnight and Goddard, Directed by Greenwalt.

ABlueEyedSamurai: fuck yeah

briancasmath: Angel riding on the back of the scooter remind me of when he wore the pink helmet with Wes in "First Impressions."

ABlueEyedSamurai: or when andrew and spike rode in season 7

briancasmath: Is that the first time they did a car chase too.

briancasmath: They go right back to the bar looking for Buffy.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "have you seeeen the blonde girl"~!!

briancasmath: This is Angel brought to you in Italian.

ABlueEyedSamurai: what did italy ever do to them?

briancasmath: "The gypsies are filthy people."

ABlueEyedSamurai: *spits*

briancasmath: Just so over the top.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i am assuming this is a roberto bennini spoof as the assistant

briancasmath: Wes is just so lost.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i liked how wes was almost back to normal when he was going to tell the parents that fred had died

ABlueEyedSamurai: but immediately when illyria came in his demeanor changed

briancasmath: And he's shaven.

briancasmath: Where's the stubble?

ABlueEyedSamurai: and acker is just owning everything

ABlueEyedSamurai: these have to be the largest breasts ever on this show.

briancasmath: "Don't you guys have an Italian Wesley here?"

briancasmath: There's just so much to quote here.

ABlueEyedSamurai: this shows how angel really has no power over anything

briancasmath: "Cast by the vilest wretch this side of Mount Everest. Which... I'm told he has climbed... several times."

ABlueEyedSamurai: great camera work too

briancasmath: Just a cog in the machine, following standards to get things done.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "but i made her do it..."

briancasmath: Angel brought up the necklace. Which is something Spike brings up later. And I love the whole apocalypse one-upping.

briancasmath: "Wesley. You take care of our little Fred for us. OK?"

ABlueEyedSamurai: great change in expressions by both

briancasmath: And Wesley goes so fucking cold when they leave.

ABlueEyedSamurai: its so hard picking an all-star out of this season

ABlueEyedSamurai: everyone was peaking

briancasmath: I thought you picked Gunn?

ABlueEyedSamurai: things change

ABlueEyedSamurai: i get forgetful

briancasmath: I'd still put up Gunn. The character was so tragic, he got so much range and depth out of it.

briancasmath: And at the same time he really emerged as a hero.

ABlueEyedSamurai: Wes is starting to make a surge

briancasmath: DEMON BUTLER

Oh, look. The Americans are relying on violence to solve their problems. What a surprise.

(as the fight ensues, the demon throws the bag into the air)

Whoo!

briancasmath: I wonder what that is a crack at?

ABlueEyedSamurai: "what, are you in love with him?" "no no no... well uh yeah"

ABlueEyedSamurai: look at all these open collars

briancasmath: Angel's always had open collars, hasn't he.

ABlueEyedSamurai: but even the henchmen have em

briancasmath:

 

SPIKE

Civilized country? Look what that squeaker did to my jacket.

 

ANGEL

After everything we've been through, you're pissed about a jacket.

 

SPIKE

No, not a jacket. My jacket. You have no idea what I went through to get this.

 

ANGEL

You stripped it off a body of a dead slayer.

 

SPIKE

Well, which gives it great sentimental value. Besides, I've been wearin' it for over 30 years. It's like a part of me.

 

ANGEL

Get over it. Buy a new one.

 

SPIKE

It's my second skin. It's who I am. It's just one more thing he's taken away that I'll never get back.

 

 

briancasmath: So petty.

ABlueEyedSamurai: the motojacket!

ABlueEyedSamurai: "WE MAKE OUR OWN FATE!"

ABlueEyedSamurai: goddamn this is so tongue in cheek

briancasmath: I love that. It says so much.

ABlueEyedSamurai: so many running gags

briancasmath: I love the "Sometimes you have to put your faith in Higher Powers." Jasmine.

briancasmath: Where did that baking analogy come from?

ABlueEyedSamurai: no idea

briancasmath: Did Buffy use it way back? Or Angel? Season 4/Angel Season 1? I'm searching.

briancasmath: Is that Slayer pussy Andrew's getting in on?

ABlueEyedSamurai: doubt it

briancasmath: Moving on. See, Angel's moving on, truly just doing things because it's right, no longer bound to alterior motives.

briancasmath: The fight he's taking on, he's doing it because it's all he can do.

ABlueEyedSamurai: wes aint so "leave the glasses on" now

ABlueEyedSamurai: but he will be

briancasmath: "With regards, the Immortal."

briancasmath: Spike brough up the rats.

briancasmath: " Can't we just... lock her away in a box where no one can ever touch her? You know? Like we did with Pavayne?"

ABlueEyedSamurai: despite it being totally out of place with their end of the world arc, this was freaking hilarious

briancasmath: I've grown to like that episode alot more. It doesn't really fall out of place with the overall storyline, which is Angel fighting because the fight is in him, because doing the right thing is what a champion does. No longer about redemption (though he hasn't given up the shanshu), about family (since he lost so much of them), his son, or Buffy. It's just about doing what he should be doing.

ABlueEyedSamurai: its too light though, it doesnt follow through with "Angel has turned bad"

ABlueEyedSamurai: i think it is more resolution to angel/spike than it is about anything else

briancasmath: It gives resolution to both that, and finality to where Angel's character is headed and 'why he fights'.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i wonder what this eps would have been like had they gotten SMG

briancasmath: I don't think I would have liked it as much. The focus for the Spike/Angel story needed to be on those two, and everything regarding them was an accent to help get them over.

ABlueEyedSamurai: agreed

ABlueEyedSamurai: it wouldnt have been as funny

ABlueEyedSamurai: it would have distracted from the main characters

briancasmath: They probably wouldn't have had that awesome fight scene.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i think they tried to overcompensate with humour since they couldnt have buffy in it, which is why it was so overthetop

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Apparently, reading from TVtome, the cookie dough line was said in Chosen as well.

[Jingus 0]

Yeah, it was during Buffy & Angel's conversation at the beginning of the episode.

[Guest Brian]

I thought it sounded like something between Buffy and Angel. I just assumed it was from Season Four/Season 1 with all the problems the two seemed to have.

[Anya 0]

It's at the end of their convo, when she is saying she just isn't ready to commit to him or Spike yet.

[areacode212 0]

I thought Dawn was fascinating in s5, but in later seasons it seemed like the writers never developed her character very much.  That being said, Michelle Trachtenberg did as good a job as anyone could've with the part, I don't think any of the blame for Dawn being annoying should fall on her.

I agree about the writers, especially since they kept writing Dawn as if she was younger than she was (even after the initial batch of S5 eps), but I think MT should shoulder at least some of the blame. I was never impressed with her. There are better actresses out there, I can easily see one of them playing Dawn so that she wasn't so grating & irritating, when she was meant to be sympathetic.

 

Is it true that Julie Benz was offered a regular spot on "Angel"? How would that have worked?

 

I've never heard this. I mean, there are times when I wonder what would've happened between Angel & Darla if Lindsey & Dru hadn't burst into the motel room. And supposedly, the Pylea arc replaced ME's original plan which I think was supposed to involve more Darla, but as far as I know, JB wasn't ever meant to be more than a guest star. I'm glad that she managed to appear in all 5 seasons, even though I thought she was wasted in TGiQ.

[Anya 0]

Yeah, the Plyea arc was thought up at the last minute when Benz was too busy to return for the originally planned end.

 

We almost didn't get Connor. When they found out Darla couldn't return in season 2 they just about killed her off in Reprise.

[Mole 0]

Apparently, reading from TVtome, the cookie dough line was said in Chosen as well.

Oh come one Rudo, you should have known it was from "Chosen."

 

I thought it sounded like something between Buffy and Angel. I just assumed it was from Season Four/Season 1 with all the problems the two seemed to have.

Once again, Brian, you should have known that one.

 

I agree about the writers, especially since they kept writing Dawn as if she was younger than she was (even after the initial batch of S5 eps), but I think MT should shoulder at least some of the blame. I was never impressed with her. There are better actresses out there, I can easily see one of them playing Dawn so that she wasn't so grating & irritating, when she was meant to be sympathetic.

AREACODE!!! YOU'RE HERE.

 

I always thought it was funny that MT got all mad when people sent hate mail in about Dawn. NO FUCKIN SHIT, your character was a little bitch for 2 seasons.

 

But she was a REALLY good little bitch.

[Anya 0]

Dawn is annoying on purpose. I find it funny. It reminds me of the banter between my sister and I.

 

Next month is the 2 year anniversary of Chosen. It will be a day of mourning.

[Mole 0]

Dawn is annoying on purpose. I find it funny. It reminds me of the banter between my sister and I.

Exactly, which is why MT shouldn't have gotten all of that hate. She did a GREAT job of being the "heel." Unfortently, I think she got X-Pac heat, which she doesn't deserve.

 

Next month is the 2 year anniversary of Chosen. It will be a day of mourning.

Noo, it won't be that sad. It isn't like the 7th season was anywhere near good.

[Anya 0]

It's still a sad anniversary to me.

[Mole 0]

Gee, I wonder why....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Anya 0]

It's still so sad

 

You're ruining the good mood I was in from playing Jade Empire now(featuring Nathan Fillion).

[areacode212 0]

Exactly, which is why MT shouldn't have gotten all of that hate. She did a GREAT job of being the "heel." Unfortently, I think she got X-Pac heat, which she doesn't deserve.

 

I think a lot of fans hated Dawn, regardless of who played her, because of the way she was this new annoying kid suddenly thrust into the show. That's not what I'm talking about. I agree that Dawn was meant to be annoying...to a point. And yeah, MT was very good at playing a pouty & petulant "heel" Dawn. But...the character had a lot of sympathetic qualities that I never thought MT conveyed convincingly enough. Heh, X-Pac heat is spot-on. I've seen fans bring up Amber Tamblyn as someone who could've done a better job as Dawn...I gotta agree.

 

Compare her to Vincent Kartheiser, who was introduced in similar circumstances (instant teenager, feeling out of place from his family). Connor could've been a disaster if he were played by a lesser actor, but VK had awesome & subtle acting chops, and really made me feel for a character that in some ways, was way more unsympathetic than Dawn. A lot of fans hate Connor anyway, but it's hard to make the claim that it's because of his acting.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

I think everyone liked Connor for his bits in Season 5. VK was great there.

 

It's almost like the ME writers absolutely must have an angsty teenager in their shows. Though River isn't quite angsty and about a zillion times cooler than Dawn.

[Jingus 0]

River is given a much more compelling reason for her bizarre behavior than just "traumatic childhood" what with all her massive brain damage PLUS uncontrollable psychic powers.

 

Dawn was simply the worst written character of the last two seasons, in my opinion. She essentially hung around just to be useless, annoy the other characters and get kidnapped all the time. She was Aquaman.

 

The only time I ever liked Connor was in Season 5. In his earlier episodes I thought that he seemed way too intelligent to be so easily manipulated all the time. Whether it was Holtz, or Cordy, or Jasmine, or even nobody at all, it just frustrated me to no end that he'd believe any insane idea in the world rather than just accept that Angel was a good person.

[Guest Brian]

Jasmine never had Connor under wraps. Connor chose to accept her, he always saw her real face. He bought into her lie, because he knew it was a lie, but one he thought was best.

 

And after angel became Angellus, it fulfilled everything he hated about him, that he had learned to hate from Holtz. It made him easily controllable by Cordy.

[Youth N Asia 0]

Hero was on today. Doyle's death still makes me more sad than anyone elses in the Buffyverse. And he was only in 10 eps.

[Jingus 0]

Jasmine never had Connor under wraps. Connor chose to accept her, he always saw her real face. He bought into her lie, because he knew it was a lie, but one he thought was best.

 

And after angel became Angellus, it fulfilled everything he hated about him, that he had learned to hate from Holtz. It made him easily controllable by Cordy.

Yeah, I know the reasons behind it all, but I just never bought it. Connor was so goddamn stubborn about hating Angel (despite ALL evidence showing that he was in fact one of the best men on the planet and a champion to millions) that it made me just wish that he'd never been born in the first place. Also I hate how Connor's evil actions were always instantly forgiven just because he was young and had a hard life. When Willow kills a human, it takes forgoddamnever for her to be redeemed; when Connor does it to give birth to Jasmine, it's forgotten by the next episode. Major double standard.

 

And yeah, Doyle ruled. It was amazing how a character could be around for less than half of a season and yet still be so fully realized as a three-dimensional person, and be able to affect my emotions so strongly.

 

EDIT: you know what would've satisfied me with Connor? An episode in which some other character beat the fuck out of him and made Connor realize just how much pain and destruction he had caused. Angel could never have done that obviously, but plenty of other people could've: Spike, Buffy, Ilyria, Faith, Willow, the list goes on and on.

[Anya 0]

Doyle's death makes me cry. The music is so sad. Death is like the best thing Joss writes and all he had for Anya is "that's my girl, always doing the stupid thing". I want to meet him so I can let him know that sucks.

[Jingus 0]

Anyanka, it's the friggin Buffyverse. Nobody ever stays dead forever (except Jenny Calender). If the show had kept going they would've brought Anya back one way or another. So just imagine that she got resurrected some kinda way and she and Xander are living happily ever after somewhere in Africa.

[Guest Brian]

I bought it because of the Angellus thing. He saw the good in Angel, but he also saw the worst of him come to the surface. We all know Angel has always battled that side of him, and he's fallen to it at times (Season 2, Wes in Season 3, Angellus in Season 4). And Connor was Angel's son, who was stronger than all of the rest of them, and wasn't really that bad. He made some bad choices, but most of his intentions were good, because remember who taught him to be that way.

[Anya 0]

I know, I know. I try to think of that like every day. How great it'd be if they were together again, with like kids or something. But no matter what that will always just be fanfic. I can't just ignore the real story no matter how hard I try. I'd take anything official, even if it was just a book or something. Even Joss just saying something about it would be great.

 

I want to see what happened right after Chosen ends. Where do they go at first? How does everyone deal with what happened? There's so much drama there.

[Jingus 0]

I do have a story for an ending to the Buffyverse that I've been mulling over for a while, and it does heavily involve Xander (and Anya does indeed make a cameo appearance), and it ties up most of the loose ends and it generally doesn't suck. It could be done as a self-contained one season series, or a multipart miniseries, or even as a theatrical movie. Problem is, even if I wrote it all down it'd just be more fanfic, of which there is already enough to fill libraries, and most of it is crappy. But I'm nobody, like everyone else, so my ideas will not be coming to a screen near you anytime soon.

[areacode212 0]

Also I hate how Connor's evil actions were always instantly forgiven just because he was young and had a hard life. When Willow kills a human, it takes forgoddamnever for her to be redeemed; when Connor does it to give birth to Jasmine, it's forgotten by the next episode. Major double standard.

 

It's understandable that it was forgotten by the next episode, since everyone had turned shiny & happy then, and by the time Jasmine's spell was broken, they had much bigger things to worry about. Did any of them even know that Connor killed the virgin?

 

If you mean that the show's writers (as opposed to the characters) forgot about it, well...it's natural that they would treat Willow & Connor differently. They had to address it with Willow since she was one of the main characters, we were supposed to love her, blah blah. Connor was never really meant to be redeemed, since this was basically the story of Holtz's revenge, and killing the girl was just one in a whole series of Connor's crappy decisions.

[Jingus 0]

I'm just mad that Connor got treated with kid gloves by the other characters, the writers, and the fans, all because he was young and angsty and had that oh-so-traumatic childhood. If your average vampire did all the evil deeds that Connor did, he would've been staked in an instant by one of the heroes. Connor did some really vile, fucked-up shit, and yet nobody ever held him responsible for any of it.

[SuperJerk 0]

He'd already been to hell...what else you gonna do to him?

[Anya 0]

Buffy: The Search for Anya would be the greatest movie of all time and smash box office records.

 

I don't think there will ever be any more Buffyverse on TV. All the rumor and talk of a Spike tv/movie seems to be wishful thinking and just for the sake of making the fans happy. It's like, a year has passed and they've done nothing but talk about how they want to do it. Do it already!

 

I am watching both series again in order now and it's while it's fun(except the beginning), I wonder how many more times I can do it before it gets old forever. Watching season 1 of Buffy is just brutal now. I never want to see The Pack again. I hope Hells Bells is never like that. That's why we need new material! Even if it's Kennedy The Vampire Slayer.

[Jingus 0]

I'm not talking about punishment. I'm talking about acknowledging that Connor has committed acts of great evil. He chose to kill that virgin, he wasn't under the power of any spell. That wasn't just being a stupid teenager, it was cold-blooded murder. To put it in perspective, remember when Buffy decided that she had to kill Anya in "Selfless"? What Connor did (actually killing the girl with his own hands) was way worse than what Anya did (summoning some demon). After Willow killed Jonathon, they spent the entirety of Season 7 punishing her and dealing with that. But Connor's crimes were just sorta forgotten.