Who has drawn?

[Guest TDinDC1112]

In the 2 threads discussing Lex Luger, many people have made the statement numerous times, "he hasn't drawn a dime." Who really has drawn a dime in wrestling in the U.S. and Canada in the last 20 or so years?

 

Hogan

Austin

Rock

HHH (biggest draw in 2000)

Undertaker

Hall and Nash (I'd say during the NWO's heyday)

Bret Hart

Goldberg

Lawler

Foley

Dusty

Piper

Von Erichs

Free Birds

Road Warriors

Junk Yard Dog (in mid-south)

Flair (maybe)

 

That's it off the top of my head. There aren't a lot of guys that have drawn money. If wrestlers were employed based on if they've drawn, then there'd be no wrestling. You have your main event program (which is what draws and makes money) and then you have all the other filler. Sting has never drawn (except for one match against Hogan). Luger hasn't drawn, neither has Michaels or Steamboat. But you need a lot more than the guys who "draw" to make a roster/company.

Edited November 9, 2003 by TDinDC1112

[eirejmcmahon 0]

The point being made was that not only does Luger not draw but that he brings NOTHING else to the table either. He can't wrestle, he's got no charisma, he's got no name value etc.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

Since when does being able to wrestle have anything to do with being a successful professional wrestler?

[Guest MikeSC]

Since when does being able to wrestle have anything to do with being a successful professional wrestler?

He can't cut a promo, is utterly lacking in charisma, and is a jerk.

 

So, just checking, what DOES he bring to the table?

-=Mike

...I hate to sound like 1Inch here, but why the heck DON'T they stick Raven in the ME on this show rather than Luger? Have JJ say he lied about Luger, bring out Raven, and after the match, Raven turns on Jarrett. God, it writes itself.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

The only thing he brings to the table is he is a name and some shock value because of recent events (as awful as it is).

 

3 of the 4 wrestlers in the ME are at least adequate performers. It's not like Luger is going to make the match suck or anything. I'm sure Jarrett will work most of it.

[eirejmcmahon 0]

Since when does being able to wrestle have anything to do with being a successful professional wrestler?

I think you missed the point of my post - if he had, say, charisma he'd be able to get away with not being able to wrestle...but he doesn't.

 

He has nothing to offer. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

[Guest OSIcon]

A lot more people then those listed above could be considered "draws" in the past twenty years. Drawing under the territorial system when you had regional draws and could accurately credit a house show doing well to a specific match/wrestler, was a lot different.

 

The better question is: Who has been a true draw on a NATIONAL level? That is, who can be considered a true draw in the era when drawing constitutes good PPV buyrates, good TV ratings, ect.

 

There are very few individuals who you can really pin point as being a draw all on their own in the past dedcade or so. Hogan, Austin, and the Rock are for sure. Flair, probably not so much, though he did always boost WCW ratings when he would return (which may count for something). I am not sure if there are any others.

 

In 2000, it was more of the whole product that was drawing people in than Triple H being a draw. From listening to people talk during that time, the interest generally seemed to be more for the overall product then just Triple H. Compare that to Austin's prime when just by listening to people talk about the previous night's RAW, you could tell that they were watching to mainly see Austin and what he would do.

 

Overall though, you are more likely to draw with a better overall product rather than just one wrestler. Austin and Rock-types are extremely rare. You also don't need one in order to draw people in. A good product that is good from top to bottom will also draw (WWF 2000 for example). Really, any ten people could have headlined a WWF PPV that year and it would have done fine.

 

Nobody is going to buy a PPV for Luger. It is that simple. TNA is falling for the same thing WCW fell for. They are equating "Experienced and known by wrestling fans" with drawing.

 

They are just wasting their money yet again.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

"Nobody is going to buy a PPV for Luger. It is that simple."

 

I disagree.

 

I guarantee you that the buzz (albeit negative) that it has already gotten on the net WILL add some buys. Consider them going with what they appeared to be heading towards (Sting/Styles vs. JJ/Abyss). You'll honestly tell me that Lex Luger won't draw ONE more buy than that based on all of this discussion, and the drug arrest/Liz death story?

[Guest The Son of Sting]

The only four people in N.America that have been consistantly big draws in the past 20 odd years are

Hogan

Andre

Rock

Austin

no one else is in that group.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I still argue that Rock is questionable at best. He never had to carry anything on his shoulders at any point...and after the ratings started falling, he never popped them when he'd return for more than a week.

 

Any credit Rock gets for 2000 has to be given to HHH as well...and we all know how I feel about that.

 

Sure his title reigns did good in 99...but WHO didn't draw in 99? After the Austin era took off Mae Young's hand was getting great ratings.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

The only four people in N.America that have been consistantly big draws in the past 20 odd years are

Hogan

Andre

Rock

Austin

no one else is in that group.

According to Meltzer as he has done articles on this in the last year, Undertaker and HHH have been huge draws in the past.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

According to Meltzer as he has done articles on this in the last year, Undertaker and HHH have been huge draws in the past.

I think it's safe to say the Meltzer is full of shit.

[Guest The Son of Sting]

I think it's safe to say the Meltzer is full of shit.

 

How so?

[Guest The Son of Sting]

QUOTE (The Son of Sting @ Nov 9 2003, 08:56 PM)

The only four people in N.America that have been consistantly big draws in the past 20 odd years are

Hogan

Andre

Rock

Austin

no one else is in that group. 

 

According to Meltzer as he has done articles on this in the last year, Undertaker and HHH have been huge draws in the past.

 

HHH had one year were he was a draw.Undertaker has no right being put in that group,the only time he headlined a show that drew big was proberly SummerSlam 98 against Austin.

 

I still argue that Rock is questionable at best. He never had to carry anything on his shoulders at any point...and after the ratings started falling, he never popped them when he'd return for more than a week.

 

Any credit Rock gets for 2000 has to be given to HHH as well...and we all know how I feel about that.[

 

I agree for the most part, but at the the end of the day Rock vs ? will draw far more than HHH vs ?.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

HHH's "one big year" as draw was the biggest year in history.

[Guest dvkorn]

Flair is only a maybe draw.... More like definately... He was probably Jim Crocket Promotions (NWA) biggest draw... Plus he was drawing way up until like 98 fairly decently when given the chance... Souled Out 98 which had Bret/Flair as the main (also Luger/Savage and the big announcement) got quite a good buyrate... He was most definately a draw... No question...

[Guest TDinDC1112]

Flair is only a maybe draw.... More like definately... He was probably Jim Crocket Promotions (NWA) biggest draw... Plus he was drawing way up until like 98 fairly decently when given the chance... Souled Out 98 which had Bret/Flair as the main (also Luger/Savage and the big announcement) got quite a good buyrate... He was most definately a draw... No question...

Being the main star of a company that loses a ton of money and doesn't do any business doesn't make him a draw. In 1989, when Crockett probably had their best year, only 5,000 people were going to see those Flair-Steamboat matches. Flair did not draw buy rates or gates at any time really at all. That doesn't mean he's not great, because he's the greatest ever, but he hasn't really been a draw. Really, there's Hogan and Austin, and then there's another group of guys about 3 rungs down, and then that's it.

[Guest OSIcon]

I disagree.

 

I guarantee you that the buzz (albeit negative) that it has already gotten on the net WILL add some buys. Consider them going with what they appeared to be heading towards (Sting/Styles vs. JJ/Abyss). You'll honestly tell me that Lex Luger won't draw ONE more buy than that based on all of this discussion, and the drug arrest/Liz death story?

 

Obviously he may get one more buy or a few more buys. Or he might now. But what I meant was it won't be anything significant enough to label him a draw.

 

London being on TNA for a few weeks got me to buy the show. I specifically bought one TNA just because of the London-Sabin match. London was the draw for me to buy, but does that means he is worth how ever much money TNA is paying Luger?

 

There are plenty of wrestlers that will entice a few people to buy a TNA PPV just to see that particular wrestler. Most of them come a lot cheaper than Luger. It is a poor investment and really a bad management decision. TNA is wastefully throwing away money just in hope that a wrestler will bring in a few more fans.

[Tim Cooke 0]

The only people hearing about the Luger "buzz" are those on the internet since TNA has little, if any, mainstream attention.

 

And about Rock in 2000 not being a draw or at least having to give credit to HHH.

 

2000 PPV's:

 

Rumble: Trips vs. Foley (Streetfight) - Trips isn't known as the huge risk taker in these types of matches. Credit Foley and the Royal Rumble for selling the PPV.

 

No Way Out: Trips vs. Foley (Hell in a Cell) - Once again, Trips isn't know to take huge bumps off a HIAC. FOley is. Credit Foley, the retirement stip, and the HIAC stip.

 

WrestleMania: Credit a stacked card and a star studded 4 way main event.

 

Backlash: Rock (face) going after HHH (heel) title. Babyface chasing the title is AT LEAST 50% of the draw and with the Rock's merchandise figures from that time period totally making Trips look like crap, I *might* listen to arguments for Trips drawing.

 

Judgement Day: Credit Rock (40%), Trips (20%) and Stipulation 40% of the Iron Man Match.

 

King of the Ring: Pass

 

Fully Loaded: Rock/Benoit headlines. Trips plays second fiddle to Rock. Rock was the CLEAR draw at this point.

 

And from here on out, any little drawing power Trips had is fading away fast.

 

----------------------

 

I have watched Velocity for 3 straight weeks due to Paul London.

 

Is he a national draw? Hell no.

But is he a personal draw? Yes.

Does that mean he will make any money since I like him? Nope.

 

Tim

[Guest dvkorn]

Flair is only a maybe draw.... More like definately... He was probably Jim Crocket Promotions (NWA) biggest draw... Plus he was drawing way up until like 98 fairly decently when given the chance... Souled Out 98 which had Bret/Flair as the main (also Luger/Savage and the big announcement) got quite a good buyrate... He was most definately a draw... No question...

Being the main star of a company that loses a ton of money and doesn't do any business doesn't make him a draw. In 1989, when Crockett probably had their best year, only 5,000 people were going to see those Flair-Steamboat matches. Flair did not draw buy rates or gates at any time really at all. That doesn't mean he's not great, because he's the greatest ever, but he hasn't really been a draw. Really, there's Hogan and Austin, and then there's another group of guys about 3 rungs down, and then that's it.

I agree about him being not being real close to Hogan or Austin but nobody really is...

 

but he was a draw...

 

look at the buyrates and ratings for Clashes and even some nitros...

 

Even though they lost a ton of money in 1989... look at the buyrates and ratings... they are large...

 

Chi Town Rumble Vs Steamer - 1.50

Clash 6 Vs Steamer - 4.3 rating

WrestleWar 89 Vs Steamer - 1.3 (

The Great American Bash 89 Vs Funk - 1.50 (12,500 thousand strong crowd)

Clash 8 w/Sting Vs Dick Slater & Muta - 4.7 rating

Halloween Havoc 89 w/Sting Vs Funk & Muta - 1.77

Clash 9 classic Vs Funk - 4.9 rating

Starrcade 89 - Round Robin w/ Luger, Muta & Sting - 1.3

 

Those are some pretty good buyrate in 1989 for a supposed non draw...

 

and go back to 87 and 88 for ppv buys and clash ratings...

 

Starrcade 87 (JCP's first PPV) going against the 1st Survivor Series as well... with Flair Vs Ron Garvin of all people in a cage got a buyrate of 3.30.. granted suvivor series more than doubled that buyrate but still... thats a good buyrate for a supposed non draw now isn't it...

 

Clash 1 Vs Sting - 5.6 rating and that went head to head with WrestleMania 4

 

I could go with his buyrate with Luger in 88 and 90 then again with Sting in 90... His 94 stuff with Hogan.. his early 94 stuff before Hogan got there... WCW was coming of a horrid year in 93... etc... 98 Vs Bret at Souled Out... I doubt know if that can directly attributed to that though... Then 99 wasn't too good... after being jobbed to Bischoff then Flair goes crazy with power ina mental asylum... so that pretty much killed most of his drawing power... but i would guess he would still be able to draw say for TNA today... etc..

 

 

sorry to go on a rant... but i do believe Flair was a large draw for WCW/NWA

[deancoles 0]

Flair basically saved wcw at starrcade 93.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

Flair is only a maybe draw.... More like definately... He was probably Jim Crocket Promotions (NWA) biggest draw... Plus he was drawing way up until like 98 fairly decently when given the chance... Souled Out 98 which had Bret/Flair as the main (also Luger/Savage and the big announcement) got quite a good buyrate... He was most definately a draw... No question...

Being the main star of a company that loses a ton of money and doesn't do any business doesn't make him a draw. In 1989, when Crockett probably had their best year, only 5,000 people were going to see those Flair-Steamboat matches. Flair did not draw buy rates or gates at any time really at all. That doesn't mean he's not great, because he's the greatest ever, but he hasn't really been a draw. Really, there's Hogan and Austin, and then there's another group of guys about 3 rungs down, and then that's it.

I agree about him being not being real close to Hogan or Austin but nobody really is...

 

but he was a draw...

 

look at the buyrates and ratings for Clashes and even some nitros...

 

Even though they lost a ton of money in 1989... look at the buyrates and ratings... they are large...

 

Chi Town Rumble Vs Steamer - 1.50

Clash 6 Vs Steamer - 4.3 rating

WrestleWar 89 Vs Steamer - 1.3 (

The Great American Bash 89 Vs Funk - 1.50 (12,500 thousand strong crowd)

Clash 8 w/Sting Vs Dick Slater & Muta - 4.7 rating

Halloween Havoc 89 w/Sting Vs Funk & Muta - 1.77

Clash 9 classic Vs Funk - 4.9 rating

Starrcade 89 - Round Robin w/ Luger, Muta & Sting - 1.3

 

Those are some pretty good buyrate in 1989 for a supposed non draw...

 

and go back to 87 and 88 for ppv buys and clash ratings...

 

Starrcade 87 (JCP's first PPV) going against the 1st Survivor Series as well... with Flair Vs Ron Garvin of all people in a cage got a buyrate of 3.30.. granted suvivor series more than doubled that buyrate but still... thats a good buyrate for a supposed non draw now isn't it...

 

Clash 1 Vs Sting - 5.6 rating and that went head to head with WrestleMania 4

 

I could go with his buyrate with Luger in 88 and 90 then again with Sting in 90... His 94 stuff with Hogan.. his early 94 stuff before Hogan got there... WCW was coming of a horrid year in 93... etc... 98 Vs Bret at Souled Out... I doubt know if that can directly attributed to that though... Then 99 wasn't too good... after being jobbed to Bischoff then Flair goes crazy with power ina mental asylum... so that pretty much killed most of his drawing power... but i would guess he would still be able to draw say for TNA today... etc..

 

 

sorry to go on a rant... but i do believe Flair was a large draw for WCW/NWA

I'm sorry to break this to you, but your citing of those numbers shows a basic misunderstanding on your part of those numbers. The ppv universe back then was very small. For instance, Starrcade 87 was available on like, 5 cable systems in the south. It did a 3.3 buyrate on those systems. That's like saying, if it was available in 100 homes, 3.3 bought it. Survivor Series doubled that buyrate, and probably MILLIONS of people saw it as as it was availble in SOOOOOOO many more homes then WCW was as opposed to a couple of thousand (maybe) seeing Starrcade. A 7 buy rate let's say when you're available in 10 million homes is 700,000 buys. A 3.3 buy rate when you're available in 50,000 homes in 1,500 buys. Those early NWA/WCW buy rates basically put Crockett out of business b/c NO ONE bought them. A buy rate is the percentage of homes that order it in the ppv universe per homes that are ABLE to order it. Those clash ratings are nice, but compare those cable ratings to the NBC (network TV) ratings that WWF was getting for the Main event and SNME's. If we decided to hold a ppv, and it was available in in 10 homes, and 6 people bought it, we could say that we drew a 60 buyrate. Big deal.

[JustJoe2k5 0]

The only people hearing about the Luger "buzz" are those on the internet since TNA has little, if any, mainstream attention.

 

And about Rock in 2000 not being a draw or at least having to give credit to HHH.

 

2000 PPV's:

 

Rumble: Trips vs. Foley (Streetfight) - Trips isn't known as the huge risk taker in these types of matches. Credit Foley and the Royal Rumble for selling the PPV.

 

No Way Out: Trips vs. Foley (Hell in a Cell) - Once again, Trips isn't know to take huge bumps off a HIAC. FOley is. Credit Foley, the retirement stip, and the HIAC stip.

 

WrestleMania: Credit a stacked card and a star studded 4 way main event.

 

Backlash: Rock (face) going after HHH (heel) title. Babyface chasing the title is AT LEAST 50% of the draw and with the Rock's merchandise figures from that time period totally making Trips look like crap, I *might* listen to arguments for Trips drawing.

 

Judgement Day: Credit Rock (40%), Trips (20%) and Stipulation 40% of the Iron Man Match.

 

King of the Ring: Pass

 

Fully Loaded: Rock/Benoit headlines. Trips plays second fiddle to Rock. Rock was the CLEAR draw at this point.

 

And from here on out, any little drawing power Trips had is fading away fast.

 

----------------------

 

I have watched Velocity for 3 straight weeks due to Paul London.

 

Is he a national draw? Hell no.

But is he a personal draw? Yes.

Does that mean he will make any money since I like him? Nope.

 

Tim

The draw for Judgment Day didn't have anything to do with the card, The Rock, or Triple H. It was the return of the Undertaker which was pretty much confirmed to the crowd through those vignettes they aired with the little girls.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

You just cannot look at every main event HHH was in and rationalize reasons why he was not responsible for drawing. First, I want to say that I hate HHH. Ok, that's over with. Now, it takes 2 to tango. People wanted to see Foley -------- kick HHH's ass. That's drawing. That's like when 2 people have a good match and people come up with every excuse why 1 guy carried the other, blah blah. 2 people are involved. The main event program is the main event program and the guys involved are the draw.

[King Cucaracha 0]

I'm not getting into the arguement of who drew and who didn't, because you could argue every time that one person doesn't make a show draw.

 

Anyway...most people from the target audience who buy (i.e the IWC) will buy the show to see how much Luger has deteriated since 01 when he was last in the big time. And I predict some scathing reviews.

[Guest TDinDC1112]

I'm not getting into the arguement of who drew and who didn't, because you could argue every time that one person doesn't make a show draw.

 

Anyway...most people from the target audience who buy (i.e the IWC) will buy the show to see how much Luger has deteriated since 01 when he was last in the big time. And I predict some scathing reviews.

I agree with everything you just said - it's just that the promotions themselves over time have always operated under the notion that the main event program is what draws the money. I disagree with that to a point.

[deancoles 0]

I agree with everything you just said - it's just that the promotions themselves over time have always operated under the notion that the main event program is what draws the money.  I disagree with that to a point.

wrestlemania 13 is an example.I know it drew terrible but the semi main event(Bret vs Austin) got 90% of the buys it had.

[Guest OSIcon]

Anyway...most people from the target audience who buy (i.e the IWC) will buy the show to see how much Luger has deteriated since 01 when he was last in the big time. And I predict some scathing reviews.

 

Really?

 

You really think that people will buy the show JUST to see how bad Luger has gotten?

 

Maybe I give people to much credit, but I can't imagine anyone paying ten dollars just to see if a bad wrestler has gotten worse.

[Guest Boo_Bradley]

Luger, Jarrett, Sting. Disco.... - When did TNA become the WWA?

[Guest TDinDC1112]

I agree with everything you just said - it's just that the promotions themselves over time have always operated under the notion that the main event program is what draws the money.  I disagree with that to a point.

wrestlemania 13 is an example.I know it drew terrible but the semi main event(Bret vs Austin) got 90% of the buys it had.

The last match isn't always "the main event." Wrestlemania 18 and 19 are easy examples.

 

WM18 - The main event, i.e. the match that got all the promotion that sold the show was Rock vs. Hogan. Jericho vs. HHH was the last match.

 

WM 19 - Hogan vs. McMahon got all the promotion, which means that's the match the federation fealt was the top draw of the show. Not Angle vs. Lesnar.