Pride FC Final Conflict Results

[Guest Devin]

I honestly think that the only reason he got the yellow card, was because the ref realized he was doing the wrong thing. You watch it again and you can see Rampage asking why the hell they're being stood up, and then Silva gets the yellow card. There's no real way of knowing, but it didn't look like the ref had any intention of giving a yellow card prior to Rampage asking why they're being stood up.

[the pinjockey 0]

I could see it being a make up call. I really couldn't see a reason for it, so that makes sense. But like you say, we will never really know unless the ref decides to tell the story someday.

 

Of course if I was Silva, I would kick that ref's fucking head off for costing me 20 grand.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yeah, it only benefitted Silva in hindsight as had the fight gone to decision - that 1 point loss could have matered - plus he lost $$. Quite frankly, Silva beat Rampages ass so badly that it doesn't really matter to me. I mean, had he squeeked out with a win, then yeah, but he obliterated Jackson.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The scetchiness of the stand-up is that Jackson was dominating Silva before it happened. Silva has shown he can defend on his back and even pulled out a Triangle on Yoshida, but he wasn't looking too good against Jackson.

 

Not only that, but Sakuraba spent the majority of two ten minute rounds laying under Randleman, doing nothing to try and win the fight. Not only that, but Randleman threw one punch in all the time he spent in Sakuraba's guard. If anyone needed a forced stand-up, it was those two.

 

Inconsistencies like that, regardless of how they actually matter in hindsight, really shouldn't happen. How many times have we, as fight fans, seen fighters use the guard to catch their breath or recover from a beating? Where was the forced stand-up durring Takada/Royce, where neither man had any intension of doing anything?

 

Yes, Silva made short work of Jackson once they stood up, but the fact remains that he didn't get to that possition in legitamate way. It's also fair to say that Silva could have escaped to the standing possition or at least held on until the round ended, but up until the ref stepped in it wasn't looking that way. If it's fair to say the above things, it's also fair to say that Jackson could have done a lot of damage to Silva while he had him on the ground, which would have made a 1st round KO for Silva much less likely, if not impossible. Silva is a terrific fighter, but his win is now tainted by "what if" questions due to the call.

 

I remember hearing Randy say that his strategy against Silva would be to keep him on the ground, which Jackson wasn't able to do. Clearly, that wasn't the case. Jackson wasn't letting him go anywhere until the ref gave him a free restart.

Edited November 12, 2003 by RickyChosyu

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Jackson wasn't doing nearly the damage to Silva as he was with Liddell . He was not in the position to finish the fight nor did he try to advance the fight beyond beating on Silvas ribs. Silva wasn't doing a lot either. Sakuraba, however, kept on going for the triangle choke - which also sets up for armbars. It's about trying to finish the fight - which makes the fight more exciting. They could have kept Silva and Rampage on the ground a little more, but what good would it do if they weren't going for anything?

 

So they stood up and Rampage was tired and clueless and Silva capitalized. The only "what if" here is "what if they fought in a regular fight where Jackson wouldn't be nearly as gassed"

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Jackson wasn't doing nearly the damage to Silva as he was with Liddell . He was not in the position to finish the fight nor did he try to advance the fight beyond beating on Silvas ribs. Silva wasn't doing a lot either.

Jackson's punches to the ribs were still an attack. Body punches don't end fights, but they can slowly wear down a fighter over the course of the fight, making him more vulnerable.

 

The same could be said about leg kicks. Should someone using only leg kicks be called for stalling too?

 

Sakuraba, however, kept on going for the triangle choke - which also sets up for armbars.  It's about trying to finish the fight - which makes the fight more exciting.

 

How many times did Sakuraba go for the triangle? I remember several very long stretched during the first two rounds where neither he (nor Kevin) did much of anything. I think those periods of time lasted longer than the time Silva and Jackson spent on the mat.

 

Furthermore, just because a certain strategy doesn't aim to finisher the fighter in a single hold or strike doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. Again, leg kicks have proven a very effective means towards winning a fight, and so have body punches. Just because they don't aim at winning the fight quickly doesn't mean they should be thrown into the same category as stalling.

 

Exciting fights are good, but fighters who chose to use less-exciting methods of winning shouldn't be penalized.

 

They could have kept Silva and Rampage on the ground a little more, but what good would it do if they weren't going for anything?

 

It would have allowed Jackson the opportunity to wear down Silva with punches. Silva has a nice guard, but I doubt he could have prevented Jackson from getting some strikes to the head, and the body shots would add up as well.

 

Not only that, but it would prevent Silva from getting such a quick victory. Jackson was smart to take Silva down, but he didn't get rewarded for his strategy because the ref undercut him.

 

So they stood up and Rampage was tired and clueless and Silva capitalized.  The only "what if" here is "what if they fought in a regular fight where Jackson wouldn't be nearly as gassed"

 

That, and "what if Silva, too, had been gassed from Rampage pounding on him." The fight certainly would have turned out differently.

[the pinjockey 0]

I didn't see much wearing down of Silva, when I rewatched it. Jackson seemed to gas himself out more than gassing out or hurting Silva. And Jackson never really looked like he had an advantage. He just stayed in full guard and essentially rubbed his glove on Silva's face. Once in a while he would get in an actual shot, but nothing that seemed like he was in control and had Silva in danger.

 

Like I said before, I think it was a borderline call that could have gone either way and it just happened to burn Jackson.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I just watched the show today, and it looked like he was at least going on offense, unlike Randleman at several points durring the Sakuraba fight. I've seen Pride referees give fighters ridiculous amounts of time to mount an offensive while in someone's guard, which makes the officiating seem inconsistent.

[the pinjockey 0]

I figured they cut the Randleman-Sakuraba fight some slack in that regard, because they though Sak's best chance was to be in that position. And I just kind of assumed that they wanted Sakuraba to win. But it really should have been broken up many times.

 

Yes, that fight did make the later decision to break Jackson-Silva look really bad when you take that into account.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The same could be said about leg kicks. Should someone using only leg kicks be called for stalling too?

 

If that's all they did without setting up another shot? Maybe. Functionally, leg kicks standing are more dangerous than rib shots on the ground. Don Frye vs. Mark Hall UFCX, for example, was all rib shots on the ground and Big John never stood it up... it was BORING. Also it wasn't rampage who was accused of stalling - it was Silva. So it was really one guy throwing leg kicks and the other guy doing nothing with them. The ref stood the fight up; it wasn't a detriment to Rampage because he had a position to finish the fight - it was a detriment cause he was tired and was content with laying on the ground to pound away at Silvas ribs/

 

How many times did Sakuraba go for the triangle? I remember several very long stretched during the first two rounds where neither he (nor Kevin) did much of anything. I think those periods of time lasted longer than the time Silva and Jackson spent on the mat.

 

I'd have to watch the fight again, but IIRC Sakuraba was pretty constant in his guard work trying to work the triangle or at least, work his way towards the triangle. Had Jackson been trying to advance his position, the ref wouldn't have stood it up.

 

Furthermore, just because a certain strategy doesn't aim to finisher the fighter in a single hold or strike doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. Again, leg kicks have proven a very effective means towards winning a fight, and so have body punches. Just because they don't aim at winning the fight quickly doesn't mean they should be thrown into the same category as stalling.

 

1. Effort to finish by KO or submission:

*Fighters who are striking with force and intention that may result in a KO will be awarded in this criteria*, that applies both standing and on the ground. "Catch" or near submissions, as well as multiple attempts will score in this criteria.

 

2. Damage:

Any strike that does damage or accumulations of strikes that result in damage are awarded here. **Damage may be visible such as a cut or bruised leg, or it may be shown by an opponent's reaction to a strike such as favoring a leg that has been kicked or turning away from a body shot.** A near submission may also result in damage points.

 

3. Standing combinations and ground control:

When a fighter lands a skillful combination of strikes while standing, they are awarded this criteria. Ground control is awarded by achieving dominant positions and holding them. **Dominant positions are side control, mount, back mount with hooks, knee ride, and north-south.** Neutral positions are standing and in guard. *Fighters are encouraged to strive for dominant position throughout the fight.*

 

5. Aggressiveness:

The fighter who is pressing the action while standing, *seeking dominant position on the ground and working to finish the match*, will score here.

 

- Matt Humes explanation of Judging Criteria

 

Negative points - yellow cards:

When the fighters are fighting as demanded by the criteria, there is no need for interference from referees or judges. However, when a fighter is not fighting in this manner, then he may receive a yellow card penalty. The fighters are encouraged to engage and strike or attempt takedowns when standing, by the referee's command of "action." When on the ground, fighters are encouraged to seek dominant positions, forced reversals or return to the feet by the referee's command of "improve position." When in a dominant position, a fighter is encouraged to finish by effective striking or submission by the referee's command of "work to finish." If either fighter does not obey the command and actively seek dominant positions and finishes, they may receive a yellow card, which will result in a negative point deduction. Any intentional fouls or unsportsmanlike conduct may also result in a yellow card and negative point.

 

-Matt Humes explanation on Yellow Cards

 

Exciting fights are good, but fighters who chose to use less-exciting methods of winning shouldn't be penalized.

 

JACKSON WASN'T PENALIZED! *Silva* got the Yellow card. Jackson just got stood up BECAUSE he, nor Silva, was advancing the fight on the ground.

 

It would have allowed Jackson the opportunity to wear down Silva with punches. Silva has a nice guard, but I doubt he could have prevented Jackson from getting some strikes to the head, and the body shots would add up as well.

 

But that is ALL that was done. When the ref says "Action" you either do more or you don't. They didn't.

 

Not only that, but it would prevent Silva from getting such a quick victory. Jackson was smart to take Silva down, but he didn't get rewarded for his strategy because the ref undercut him.

 

He didn't get rewarded because he didn't take advantage of the situation and didn't finish the fight on the ground. Silva finished the fight Standing. He won.

 

That, and "what if Silva, too, had been gassed from Rampage pounding on him." The fight certainly would have turned out differently.

 

Silva wasn't. Rampages punches didn't have nearly the "umph" as his earlier against Liddell. He was tiring, Silva wasn't hurt at all. Silva took Cro Cops liver kick and kept on fighting in top form - dispite Mirko foot imprinted on his ribs.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I thought it would be helpful if I watched both Sakuraba/Randleman and Jackson/Silva again, and took some notes. Here's what I found.

 

Sakuraba/Randleman

 

There was a five minute period in the first round where Sakuraba had his leg above Randleman's shoulder, but there was no way he was getting a Triangle or working towards it. As the round went on, it became clear that it was a stalling tactic and little more. Randleman was trying a few short knee strikes to the ass and a few rib shots with little on them. He went for the head a few times but only hit cleanly once. He was unable to get his shoulder out from under Sakuraba's leg, and Sakuraba had control of his free arm, so Randleman couldn't do much. At the same time, Sakuraba was not working towards a triangle. He was preventing Randleman from hurting him, but making little, if any, attempts to hurt Randleman. I heard Bas say more than once that the ref should have made them stand up, because neither men were doing any damage. Both commentators said the lack of activity was dissapointing.

 

Jackson/Silva

 

From the time that Jackson got himself out of Silva's Guillotine Choke, to the point that Silva went for the Arm bar, about two minutes passed. During those two minutes, Jackson used shots to the rib and to the head. Silva did a good job defending his head by keeping it a close guard, putting his arms over Jackson's to prevent him from raining down with punches from above. This didn't stop Jackson from landing several outside shots to the head and ribs, and near the end of the two minute period, Jackson hit a very clean left-right combo to Silva's face from above, which Silva responded to by hooking Jackson's arms again to avoid further damage.

 

After the two minutes passed, Jackson raised his hips and extended his knees for leverage, but Silva responded by going for an arm bar. Jackson freed his arm by landing several punches with his other arm to Silva's face and went to the side mount, where he landed two very hard knees to Silva's head. Silva hooked Jackson's right leg to put him in the half guard. Jackson tried to move back to the side mount, but Silva quickly scooted his hips underneath Jackson's and re-applied the full guard. Here, Jackson hit several punches and short elbows to Silva's mid section and after hitting body shots and moving into possition, hit three, hard, overhead punches to Silva that made a small cut next to his eye. The cut wasn't deep, but it showed that Jackson's punches were connecting and doing damage.

 

After this, Jackson continued hitting short punches to Silva's ribs and temple, while setting up overhead shots to the face. At one point, Jackson used a punch to the ribs to set up two overhead punches to the face, the second of which Silva blocked with both his arms. Silva then threw two punches at Jackson to force him to duck his head back down.

 

About five seconds after this, the ref told the two of them to stand up. For the entire time that Jackson dominated, the commentators (including Couture) praised Jackson's strategy and ability in wearing down Silva. Unlike Sakuraba/Randleman, none of them mentioned a lack of activity.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

If that's all they did without setting up another shot? Maybe. Functionally, leg kicks standing are more dangerous than rib shots on the ground. Don Frye vs. Mark Hall UFCX, for example, was all rib shots on the ground and Big John never stood it up... it was BORING.

 

How can you decide whether or not the leg is "setting up" to something? Dana White said Lidell's strategy of using leg kicks was supposed to pay off in the second round, meaning the first round would have seen little but defense and leg kicks from Chuck. Would that have been stalling?

 

How about Marco Ruas throwing all leg kicks to break down monster Paul Varelans for thirteen minutes until he wasn't able to move? Ruas was very effective in his strategy, but it took him a while to set up. I guess we're not allowing that anymore because it's boring?

 

Also it wasn't rampage who was accused of stalling - it was Silva.  So it was really one guy throwing leg kicks and the other guy doing nothing with them.

 

But in this fight, the man throwing leg kicks was punished for his opponents lack of activity. Jackson had no way of forcing Silva to be active on the mat. If Silva was the one stalling, why was he rewarded with a stand-up? Jackson obviously wanted Silva on the mat, so punishing Silva for stalling on the mat by allowing him to stand up makes absolutely no sense.

 

If someone is taking leg kicks and doing nothing with them, should they be forced to go to the mat where they don't have to take leg kicks?

 

The ref stood the fight up; it wasn't a detriment to Rampage because he had a position to finish the fight - it was a detriment cause he was tired and was content with laying on the ground to pound away at Silvas ribs.

 

Not only was he tired, but he realized that, standing, he was no match for Silva. His first action in the fight was to pick up Silva to slam him down to the mat. Silva was too smart to let himself be slammed, but he couldn't avoid being taken down, and that's where he was at a disadvantage to Jackson. This was obvious by how little he did while on the ground and how much Jackson was able to pound on him.

 

So it was a detriment to Jackson. He had Silva where he wanted him, and Silva - by doing absolutely nothing to hurt Jackson - got a free ticket out.

 

I'd have to watch the fight again, but IIRC Sakuraba was pretty constant in his guard work trying to work the triangle or at least, work his way towards the triangle.  Had Jackson been trying to advance his position, the ref wouldn't have stood it up.

 

Jackson was trying much harder to advance his possition than Sakuraba was. Sakuraba was content to lie on the mat while Randleman struggled to find a way to hurt him. Jackson was constantly moving, punching, and trying to get at Silva. There's no possible justification of the call made in Silva/Jackson without condemning the absence of that call in Sakuraba/Randleman.

 

*snip the parts that don't apply to the discussion*

 

2. Damage:

Damage may be visible such as a cut or bruised leg, or it may be shown by an opponent's reaction to a strike such as favoring a leg that has been kicked or turning away from a body shot.

 

The cut next to the eye occurred about a minute or so before they were told to stand up. As for turning away, he was doing everything he could to prevent Jackson from hurting him.

 

3. Standing combinations and ground control:

Ground control is awarded by achieving dominant positions and holding them. Dominant positions are side control, mount, back mount with hooks, knee ride, and north-south. Neutral positions are standing and in guard. Fighters are encouraged to strive for dominant position throughout the fight.

 

5. Aggressiveness:

The fighter who is pressing the action while standing, seeking dominant position on the ground and working to finish the match, will score here.

 

These only advance the argument for Jackson.

 

*snip Humes yellow card explanation*

 

I understand giving Silva the yellow card. I don't understand the stand up, which hurt Jackson more than the yellow card helped him.

 

JACKSON WASN'T PENALIZED!  *Silva* got the Yellow card.  Jackson just got stood up BECAUSE he, nor Silva, was advancing the fight on the ground.

 

I already explained that Jackson was, in effect, penalized by having the progress he made against Silva undone via stand-up.

 

And he was advancing the fight, like I mentioned.

 

But that is ALL that was done.  When the ref says "Action" you either do more or you don't. They didn't.

 

They did. Five seconds prior, they had an exchange. Randleman and Sakuraba did nothing of the sort.

 

He didn't get rewarded because he didn't take advantage of the situation and didn't finish the fight on the ground.  Silva finished the fight Standing.  He won.

 

If Jackson had continued to dominate on the ground the way he had until the stand-up, there's no way Silva would have won the round. That round, up until the stand-up, was unquestionably Jackson's. Silva, other than a failed arm bar attempt, did absolutely nothing to Jackson. Jackson landed several strong punches and knees to the head and countless punches to the ribs and mid-section that would surely have hurt Silva's stamina.

 

Just because he wasn't finishing the fight doesn't mean he wasn't taking advantage of his position. To anyone paying attention to the fight, he was taking great advantage and completely dominating Silva.

 

Watch Fujita/Kerr from the 2000 GP. Kerr tries to end the fight early and does pretty well until he gets caught underneath Fujita. Fujita spends the rest of the fight punching Kerr in the head and body. None of Fujita's punches look good enough to KO Kerr, but Kerr mounts absolutely no offense and gets dominated for the rest of the round.

 

Fujita won that fight via decision. Jackson, up to the forced stand up, could have done the same thing during the first round. That would have hurt Silva's ability to do what he did after the stand-up, and it would have scored Jackson points with the judges.

 

Rampages punches didn't have nearly the "umph" as his earlier against Liddell.  He was tiring, Silva wasn't hurt at all.  Silva took Cro Cops liver kick and kept on fighting in top form - dispite Mirko foot imprinted on his ribs.

 

Silva looked pretty hurt after those three rights to the face and big knees to the head. He was hurting, and had he stayed on the ground, he would have been hurting a lot more by the time the round ended.

Edited November 12, 2003 by RickyChosyu

[Guest NCJ]

Silva proved alot to me in this tournament. He has to be number 2 or tied for 1 at 205 after that performance, but the standup call was bullshit. Rampage was active. If Silva wasn't active you either A) Give Silva a yellow card, but keep them in the same position on the ground, or B) Stop the fight. If Sakuraba had been stood up he probably would have lost. If Royce Gracie would have been stood up more in his career he definately would have lost more. How the hell was Arona not stood up when he fought Henderson? That was a Pride fight under their current rules set. That was definately a lay and pray by Arona. Until they have some sort of consistency in the calls they make Pride will always be looked at a little questionably. Silva and Rampage were both working and active within a minute or two of the standup. It would have been different if Rampage was just laying and praying, but if you are active you deserve to be kept in the superior postion when you earn it. I am not trying to discredit Silva's win, and that one decision dosen't hurt Silva's credibility at all, but if Rampage dosen't get a rematch I would feel a little cheated. There is a real possibility that Pride will shuffle him back down the card after Yoshida did so well against Silva. Most people seem to think that Pride wants a Japanese fighter to beat Silva since Silva beat Sakuraba. I just hope Quinton dosen't end up being the odd man out.

 

This was a great show for Pride. I hope the UFC can match it some day.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Pride does need to make money and so they need marketable stars. Natives make good babyfaces to take on monster heels like Silva. A native who could actually beat Silva would be a dream come true.

 

At the same time, there would be no better way for them to establish a new monster heel in Jackson (or another gaijin that fits the bill) than to have him beat Silva convincingly. Sort of like All Japan Women building up Aja Kong as their new monster heel by having her defeat Bull Nakano. The dominant heel champion was drawing well for them, so they decided to continue the formula with Aja instead of cashing in on a big babyface win with Toyota or Yamada.

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing both Silva/Yoshida and Silva/Jackson again. Yoshida dominated Silva for most of the first round and only started to slide once he decided to trade punches with him. Had he been able to take Silva down in the second round and dominate him the way he did in the first, the judges would have no choice but to give him the win.

 

I've explained my argument for Jackson enough, I'd say.

 

Maybe they could run Jackson/Yoshida for the chance to face Silva in a title match?

[the pinjockey 0]

Three way dance, three way dance

 

Sorry, old habits die hard.

[Guest XdojimeX]

That was probably the best MMA card I've ever seen. Anyway to interject a bit here...

 

Ricky sed-

"The cut next to the eye occurred about a minute or so before they were told to stand up. As for turning away, he was doing everything he could to prevent Jackson from hurting him."

 

"Silva looked pretty hurt after those three rights to the face and big knees to the head. He was hurting, and had he stayed on the ground, he would have been hurting a lot more by the time the round ended."

 

Going back to watch the fight, after Jackson got the cut he didn't capitalize at all aside from some scrapes and rabbit punches. His G & P really stalled out at that point. But I didnt really agree with the yellowcard on Silva. It was in stalemate territory for both fighters. I would have let it develop a bit more then do a standup if the methodical pace continued. It was hardly the highway robbery I've seen some characterize over on sherdog (aka hell on earth) though. They both pretty much started to hit the wall in that position. I do think the rulings should be a little more flexible as far as yellowcards go though. Usually a fighter stalls in the guard because they're in control and want to prevent the standup. Obviously with Silva that wasn't the case. Maybe put them in half guard to advance the position instead of a complete reset. But in the end its a judgment call. You still have to win the fight, and its not like anyone thought Silva had an overwhelming advantage standing up after the way Rampage picked apart Liddel.

 

Also to hear Jackson's own words the fight's turning point was Silva's guillotine choke to prevent the slam. Post fight he said he almost passed out. Add that to the withering beat down of Liddel and that would explain his eventual wearing down.

[Guest NCJ]

I agree that it wasn't highway robbery, and that you still have to win the fight no matter what. However it was still a bad call. If Pride wants to be taken seriously in the U.S. it is going to have to stop making rulings that are easily picked apart in big match scenarios. I think sometimes in their hates to put the entertainment factor over the referee made a bad choice. I think everyone can live with that. However Jackson should have first crack a Silva because he was promised him no matter what.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

>>That was probably the best MMA card I've ever seen. Anyway to interject a bit here...

 

I actually haven't seen all that much Pride, but I would put it up there with Pride 10 for my favorites so far.

 

>>Going back to watch the fight, after Jackson got the cut he didn't capitalize at all aside from some scrapes and rabbit punches. His G & P really stalled out at that point.

 

I disagree. He hit a clean strike to the face seconds before the stand-up. He wasn't wailing away like Fedor or Coleman would, but he was bussy.

 

>>But I didnt really agree with the yellowcard on Silva. It was in stalemate territory for both fighters. I would have let it develop a bit more then do a standup if the methodical pace continued.

 

At least for the five or so minutes Sakuraba and Randleman were given.

 

>>It was hardly the highway robbery I've seen some characterize over on sherdog (aka hell on earth) though.

 

I read a few posts on it at Sherdog and didn't see any of them complaining. The posts I saw were either "Silva = Best Ever PERIOD" or "Saku/Randleman proves Pride is all worked."

 

Hell on earth is putting it lightly.

 

*snip*

 

>>You still have to win the fight, and its not like anyone thought Silva had an overwhelming advantage standing up after the way Rampage picked apart Liddel.

 

I still think Rampage was smart to go for the slam right away. Maybe I'm overrating Silva's striking ability, but I don't think there are too many who can trade with him and win.

 

The problem I had with the call was that it forced Jackson to give up the advantage he had on the ground. He was doing damage to Silva and would have won the fight had it gone to a decision.

 

>>Also to hear Jackson's own words the fight's turning point was Silva's guillotine choke to prevent the slam. Post fight he said he almost passed out. Add that to the withering beat down of Liddel and that would explain his eventual wearing down.

 

And that was with Jackson partially blocking the move with his left arm. Yeow.

 

Silva did succeed in tiring out Jackson with the choke, but Jackson managed to take him down and still mount an offense. You can say that Jackson had no chance from the beginning due to the choke, but the stand-up certainly didn't make things easier for him, and it was supposed to be penalizing Silva.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I'm going to watch the show again tomorrow, so I'll get a better look.

 

In the mean time...

 

 

AntoniOWNED!

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Cro Cop/Nog and Yoshida/Silva were very similar if you think about it, both great fights about stand up versus grappling, domination versus grace, etc. etc. Yoshida impressed the hell outta me, and I have to say I don't cry work anymore. Liddell, Herring, and especially Randleman definitely disappointed me. Herring should've finished him quick time, and had he done so they probably would've been able to show the fight on PPV. What was up with Liddell? It was like he was just asking for a beating, and was outclassed by Rampage in every possible way. Randleman is a classic case o wasted potential, as he could be great if only wasn't such a fucking idiot sometimes. He should've murdered Saku but as usual, he beat himself. He was killing him standing up, and he should've kept it that way.

 

I'm just happy for Dan Henderson, since everybody was saying how he was going to be submitted, and that he was coming off surgery so he will have a tough time. He's a world class wrestler people, Busta won't just take him down at will. Dan also showed off his superior striking skills with that sick knee. I hope if they ever have another Pride Bushido show, that he's involved.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

How can you decide whether or not the leg is "setting up" to something?

 

Well, if they do not follow their leg kicks through with a left straight or bodyshot (as Rutten always mentions and references his book) then they are not setting anything up. It's like a jab.

 

Dana White said Lidell's strategy of using leg kicks was supposed to pay off in the second round, meaning the first round would have seen little but defense and leg kicks from Chuck. Would that have been stalling?

 

Yes. If Chuck was content with avoiding Rampage and just hitting him with leg kicks, that would be stalling. He wasn't improving position nor looking to end the fight. Of course, Chuck wouldn't have actually done *just* that. It's an insurance policy. He would work the leg kicks and still try to finish it in the first. If it went to the second, those leg kicks would benefit him.

 

How about Marco Ruas throwing all leg kicks to break down monster Paul Varelans for thirteen minutes until he wasn't able to move? Ruas was very effective in his strategy, but it took him a while to set up. I guess we're not allowing that anymore because it's boring?

 

Ruas didn't *just* do that, though. Besides, everyone knows how to block a leg shot and Paul Varlens is a joke. The leg kicks are not an effective finisher and are only used in terms of strategy and wearing the opponent down. Pride promotes FINISHING, not "wearing down".

 

But in this fight, the man throwing leg kicks was punished for his opponents lack of activity. Jackson had no way of forcing Silva to be active on the mat.

 

Jackson could have went for more stuff. He could have tried to pass the guard. He could have tried for a kimura, a can opener, a knee bar, a slam, etc. There's lots of stuff Jackson could have done to push Silva. Of course, that would have given up his "safe" position in Silvas guard. A position where he could just rest rather than finish.

 

If Silva was the one stalling, why was he rewarded with a stand-up? Jackson obviously wanted Silva on the mat, so punishing Silva for stalling on the mat by allowing him to stand up makes absolutely no sense.

 

"Ok, you're doing nothing on the ground... so let's keep you on the ground" - that doesn't make sense. Silva got a point taken away and 10% of his purse is gone. Had the fight ended right there, Jackson probably would have won. Since nothing was going to change in that position, the ref changed it. They've done this in many fights before (herring/kerr comes to mind) and both fighters knew the consequences.

 

If someone is taking leg kicks and doing nothing with them, should they be forced to go to the mat where they don't have to take leg kicks?

 

Pride fights start on their feet. The ref returned ("reseted") them to where they began. If they started on the ground, then they would have been returned to the ground given that scenario.

 

Not only was he tired, but he realized that, standing, he was no match for Silva.

 

I think fresh, Rampage would have been a match for Silva. I think fatigue was the main factor.

 

His first action in the fight was to pick up Silva to slam him down to the mat. Silva was too smart to let himself be slammed, but he couldn't avoid being taken down, and that's where he was at a disadvantage to Jackson. This was obvious by how little he did while on the ground and how much Jackson was able to pound on him.

 

Silva attempted an armbar on Jackson. That was *much* more danger than Jackson had on him in the guard. Silva has ground skillz. He is not so much "bad" on the ground as he is *better* on his feet.

 

So it was a detriment to Jackson. He had Silva where he wanted him, and Silva - by doing absolutely nothing to hurt Jackson - got a free ticket out.

 

It wasn't free. It came at a cost. He got a yellow card.

 

Jackson was trying much harder to advance his possition than Sakuraba was.

 

No he wasn't. Sakuraba attempted a submission - he advanced his position. That position had the possibility of ending the fight. Jackson in the guard with Silva unwilling did not. Jackson just laid down and threw some weak punches and stayed there.

 

Sakuraba was content to lie on the mat while Randleman struggled to find a way to hurt him. Jackson was constantly moving, punching, and trying to get at Silva. There's no possible justification of the call made in Silva/Jackson without condemning the absence of that call in Sakuraba/Randleman.

 

Sakuraba had Randleman in a potentially dangerous position where one wrong move could have cost Randleman the match. In the end, that proved to be correct as Sakuraba tapped him out. Jackson was happy with laying and praying and Silva was waiting for a standup.

 

The cut next to the eye occurred about a minute or so before they were told to stand up. As for turning away, he was doing everything he could to prevent Jackson from hurting him.

 

Silva was not being hurt by Rampages assault and "avoiding a shot" is different than "turning away". "Turning away" is a reactionary move when getting hit, "avoiding a shot" is like rolling with a punch. The "cut" was superficial in a common cut area (corner of the eye) where Silva tends to get cut often. The punch that caused it wasn't very hard at all.

 

These only advance the argument for Jackson.

 

How so? Jackson didn't have dominant position nor worked for one.

 

And he was advancing the fight, like I mentioned.

 

Throwing weak head and body shots is not advancing the fight. That's Mark Kerr strategy and has been weeded out of todays fight game. I could see this argument being used if say those shots were like Fedor's to Nog, or like Rampage's to Liddell, where actual damange was being made, but they were not.

 

They did. Five seconds prior, they had an exchange. Randleman and Sakuraba did nothing of the sort.

 

The ref called "action" a number of times and then stood Rampage and Silva up. Sakuraba kept going for submissions, be it a triangle, armbar, or kimura. He wasn't just "laying on the mat".

 

If Jackson had continued to dominate on the ground the way he had until the stand-up, there's no way Silva would have won the round. That round, up until the stand-up, was unquestionably Jackson's. Silva, other than a failed arm bar attempt, did absolutely nothing to Jackson. Jackson landed several strong punches and knees to the head and countless punches to the ribs and mid-section that would surely have hurt Silva's stamina.

 

Those punches had very little on them and Silva is a machine. That round would have continued on with Jackson laying in the guard hitting at Silvas ribs and would have put the crowd to sleep - the ref made the right call in standing them up. Silva was more active after the standup than Rampage was on the ground.

 

Just because he wasn't finishing the fight doesn't mean he wasn't taking advantage of his position. To anyone paying attention to the fight, he was taking great advantage and completely dominating Silva.

 

"Completely dominating"? Sorry, Fedor completely dominated Noguiera as he actually landed shots that HURT. What Rampage did was crappy GnP. That's no way to "take advantage" of the guard position.

 

Watch Fujita/Kerr from the 2000 GP. Kerr tries to end the fight early and does pretty well until he gets caught underneath Fujita. Fujita spends the rest of the fight punching Kerr in the head and body. None of Fujita's punches look good enough to KO Kerr, but Kerr mounts absolutely no offense and gets dominated for the rest of the round.

 

Fujita won that fight via decision. Jackson, up to the forced stand up, could have done the same thing during the first round. That would have hurt Silva's ability to do what he did after the stand-up, and it would have scored Jackson points with the judges.

 

But it wouldn't have finished the fight. That's exactly what the judges and refs want to STOP. They don't want people to "score points", they want fighters to finish the fights. A decision is the last thing they want. The standup and yellow cards are to prevent that from happening.

 

Silva looked pretty hurt after those three rights to the face and big knees to the head. He was hurting, and had he stayed on the ground, he would have been hurting a lot more by the time the round ended.

 

Silva looked perfectly fine. He wasn't wincing in pain and didn't seem troubled at all.

[Guest NCJ]

I agree with some of the things you said, but Rampage wasn't trying to stay there the entire time. He did use a knee or two, and he was active. If Pride enforced the rules consistently I wouldn't have a problem, but they don't. How do you explain no standup and yellow card in the Arona/Henderson fight. That was a fight that was alot less active than the Rampage/Silva. And the truth is Silva had tried a submission less than two minutes before the standup. Neither man was inactive and they should have been allowed to continue in that position. If you got slammed and put on your back you should be made to get out of that situation.