Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted November 18, 2003 Peter Gammons is reporting that Oakland is trading Ramon Hernandez and Terrance Long to the Padres for...Mark Kotsay Edit: I just saw it in the off-season thread but it scrolled on my TV screen and I hate the A's so here's a thread devoted to their eventual pain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted November 18, 2003 Already posted this in the Offseason topic. On the A's message board I visit about 90% of us are pissed right now and I'd count myself as one of them. Getting rid of Long was not worth giving up Ramon to only get a light hitting outfielder. Beane has always had a hard on for Kotsay and I'm afraid his ego got the best of him in this deal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest drdrainoscott Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Already posted this in the Offseason topic. On the A's message board I visit about 90% of us are pissed right now and I'd count myself as one of them. Getting rid of Long was not worth giving up Ramon to only get a light hitting outfielder. Beane has always had a hard on for Kotsay and I'm afraid his ego got the best of him in this deal. Granted the only thing that I know about Oakland is what I read in Moneyball, but how can Oakland fans be mad about this trade? I mean Beane has almost a perfect track record of making these horrible looking deals turn out to be amazing ones. Something tells me that he has something up his sleave. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Yes if you aren't a diehard A's fan it is hard to explain. I've been a 100% Beane supporter but there is a group of A's fans who are not happy with Beane for about a year now. A lot of it had to do with how he handled the Art Howe situation and force his won guy Ken Macha into the manager position. Beane has a very big ego which you would pick up on from reading Moneyball and I think it has rubbed many fans the wrong way. This deal is an example of him being so hard up for a player that he'll do anything to get him and he loved Kotsay. Same thing with Erubiel Durazo although in that case they didn't give up anything of note to get him but he didn't live up the hype that Beane built him up to be. Myself personally I can't complain too much about Beane because I look at him as the savior of this franchise and if it weren't for the moves he made in 1999 and 2000 this team might not even be in Oakland anymore. The A's winning and drawing strong crowds (no matter what outsiders say) are the only thing keeping owner Steve Schott from moving the A's out of Oakland and the Bay Area all together, something Bud Selig and his BUTT buddy by the bay, Giants' owner Peter Magowan, want very much. Okay went off on a tangent there but anyways back to the trade it is very questionable move in my view. Kotsay's numbers were not good at all last year and he has had back problems. A catcher like Hernandez is much harder to find than an outfielder like Kotsay. On top of that the A's benefit very little financially from the deal so it doesn't help them that much in signing free agents. Beane's track record is excellent but this past year the luster has worn off a bit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Get more pissed, cause Beane just traded Ted Lily to Toronto for OFer Bobby Kielty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Again another player he had a hard on for. I have no problem dealing Lilly because he is expendable and I fully expected him to be traded this offseason for a bat was just hoping it'd be someone better than Bobby Kielty. Oh well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Olympic Slam Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Hernandez is a keeper but I wouldn't miss T-Long. Good catchers are hard to come by Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HarleyQuinn 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Don't the A's already have 4 solid starters already in Harden, Hudson, Zito and Mulder? Justin Duchscherer had a monster season in AAA(14-2 record, 3.25 ERA and a 118 to 18 K/BB ratio) and could probably fill in & do just as good/better then Lilly did(12-10 and a 4.34 ERA). In the three seasons where Lilly has pitched 20+ games, he has a career 4.47 ERA which isn't exactly promising. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Yes and that's why I said Lilly was expendable just was hoping for someone like J.D. Drew and not Bobby Kielty but again Beane looooooves guys who can walk even if they can't hit. The A's also have a guy named Joe Blanton in the minors who is the next stud pitcher they have coming up some time next season. Duchscherer is a marginal pitching prospect and looked decent when they called him up for a few late season starts last year. He'll probably compete for the 5th spot in spring with whatever cheap, veteran free agent pitcher they pick up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
treble 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Before the season ended, Kielty was talking about working out hardcore over the offseason since he was dissappointed by his production in '03. I was looking forward to seeing him progress, but the Jays outfield is full at both the Major and Minor league level, so he was expendable. And the Jays sure shored up their pitching today, I just hope it doesn't mean they're giving up on re-signing Escobar. I remember hearing rumblings of an Escobar for Lilly trade around the trade deadline, but J.P. decided to keep Escobar around for the rest of the season (and hopefully beyond that). Oh well, I just hope this turns out better for the Jays than last year's annual 'off-season swap with Oakland', as Lidle didn't have a very good year at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Ted Lilly wasn't a world beater last year, and the A's got a player roughly on his level. Good trade though. A classic example of two teams trading from strength to shore up weaknesses. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 As for Hernandez, the A's are high on Jeremy Brown, an OBP machine in the minors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Errr I haven't heard anyone say anything about the Jeremy Brown all season so I think they've cooled on him. He certainly won't be ready next year. I think they are high on late bloomer Adam Melhuse who did hit well in his limited action but its a big risk to take to give the starting catching job to a 31 year old, career minor leaguer. I've actually relaxed a little and took a step back and don't hate the Padre trade nearly as much as I did this morning. Still not thrilled by it and can only hope Kotsay and Hernandez return to the 2002 numbers which as in much better for Kotsay and much worse for Hernandez. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Just look at the A's outfield. Chris F'n Singleton had the best OBP of the three, with .301. They desperately needed outfielders, and I think these moves improve the outfield more than they hurt the catching position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 (edited) Eric Byrnes had a .333 obp so he lead their outfielders. I'm tempted to give you the link to the A's message board I visit because I'm half expecting a mass suicide pretty soon. They are just tearing these trades a new one, even the Lilly deal. Edited November 19, 2003 by Bored Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 My apologies. Baseball-reference.com lists the players as starters by using their games played by position. Since Byrnes split between left/center, he appeared on the bench. Still, that's not a good mark for your best outfielder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 I think they are high on late bloomer Adam Melhuse ...everything's coming up Melhouse! How will Hernandez's depature affect the starters? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 As much as sportswriters will tell you the effects, I don't think there's ever been a link between catchers amd pitchers' performance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 And the Jays sure shored up their pitching today, I just hope it doesn't mean they're giving up on re-signing Escobar. I remember hearing rumblings of an Escobar for Lilly trade around the trade deadline, but J.P. decided to keep Escobar around for the rest of the season (and hopefully beyond that). Oh well, I just hope this turns out better for the Jays than last year's annual 'off-season swap with Oakland', as Lidle didn't have a very good year at all. I hope it does. All Escobar's ever done is be maddeningly inconsistent while showing flashes of brilliances from time to time. He's not worth it at the price he's going to be asking. And I definitely think Lilly is going to be better than Lidle was. Plus, another lefty in the rotation does NOT suck. This makes me very excited about next season...a starting rotation of Halladay, Lilly, Hendrickson and Hentgen, plus whichever young guy gets the fifth spot in spring training? Not too shabby. This should be the year the Jays seriously contend for the playoffs again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted November 19, 2003 And the Jays sure shored up their pitching today, I just hope it doesn't mean they're giving up on re-signing Escobar. I remember hearing rumblings of an Escobar for Lilly trade around the trade deadline, but J.P. decided to keep Escobar around for the rest of the season (and hopefully beyond that). Oh well, I just hope this turns out better for the Jays than last year's annual 'off-season swap with Oakland', as Lidle didn't have a very good year at all. I hope it does. All Escobar's ever done is be maddeningly inconsistent while showing flashes of brilliances from time to time. He's not worth it at the price he's going to be asking. And I definitely think Lilly is going to be better than Lidle was. Plus, another lefty in the rotation does NOT suck. This makes me very excited about next season...a starting rotation of Halladay, Lilly, Hendrickson and Hentgen, plus whichever young guy gets the fifth spot in spring training? Not too shabby. This should be the year the Jays seriously contend for the playoffs again. Escobar is a ground ball pitcher. He isn't suited for the Skydome or any other place where they have artificial turf. Look at his splits Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldSchoolWrestling 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 I'm hoping this money they are saving on these trades will lead to a big signing like either a Miguel Tejada or a Pudge Rodriguez. Normally I'd say these guys are out of their league moneywise, but you save a few million here and a few million there and you never know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Old School, I was thinking the same thing. It'll probably go towards keeping Tejada. Getting out from under the T-Long contract would help alot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 As the official A's spokesman here, the A's have no intention of signing Tejada. They will go with Bobby Crosby and hope he lives up to the hype. The trades yesterday were to make sure they can re-sign Keith Foulke who has been their top priority over Tejada. Hey Al you need to speak to my fellow A's fans. I'm expecting a them to march with torches to Billy Beane's office today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HarleyQuinn 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 lol, yeah. I read a few posts on the A's board and...yikes! I'm expecting a full on witchhunt resulting in the deaths of the whole A's organization with the way they talk over there. I personally feel that it would be better to try and re-sign Foulke as it will give them a dominant presence when reaching the 8th and 9th innings in close games. I think Bobby Crosby will do solid(.283 BA, .386 OBP, .437 SLG) in place of Tejada. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2003 Bored, just try to remind them that Ramon Hernandez is a catcher who had his first good season, and not the second coming of Jesus. Adam Melhuse is a more than capable catcher, and finally, the A's REALLY needed an outfield. Above all, remind them that with Hudson, Zito and Mulder, they're still the favorites in the AL West. And if all else fails, sometimes you just have to beat them senseless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
