If Angle can't have Bret give him....

[chaosrage 0]

All before the nip up (actually it was very close to the nip up).  Why would Jericho target the back if it wasn't an issue?? Uh... err... ??

 

His finishing move works the back....

 

And that adrenaline lasted all those 15 minutes dispite the slow periods. Riiiight.

 

Um, it lasted about 20 seconds. After he does the moonsault, and it didn't pin Jericho, he's tired and they're just trading moves again.

 

In terms of wrestling and especially the story of THAT match, the difference between Adrenaline and Magic Pixie dust is negligible. Adrenaline can be used if the story calls for it, if they built it... they didn't. They usually never do. It's bad selling. It's completely ignoring the work Jericho did. Of course, you could make the case that Shawns back was never really injured and that the nip up symbolized it... but... heh... Jericho continued to work on it and Shawn then decided to sell it... errr.. duh.... duhr...

 

So Adrenaline is magic pixie dust. Okay....

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Ah, the finishing move that rarely ever finishes the match... gotcha.

 

According to our resident Adrenaline expert, once it wears off the wrestler is basically fucked. HBK wasn't fucked. He ended up winning... More adrenaline? Does he have a needle in his tights which he busts out every time he needs a boost???

 

*In that context* which is "OOOOH here it comes aaaggaaaaiin!" - yes, it is magical pixie dust.

[chaosrage 0]

According to our resident Adrenaline expert, once it wears off the wrestler is basically fucked.  HBK wasn't fucked.  He ended up winning...

Once adrenalin levels go down again, you're back to where you started from.

[Guest DR PHIL]

Opinions can't be wrong, but they can be ignorant.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yes.

 

HBK gets his ass kicked.

 

*adrenaline goes up*

 

HBK comes back.

 

*adrenaline goes down*

 

Back where he started (aka the results of an asskicking... aka "fucked"). Of course, HBK has the holy spirit, pixie dust, AND adrenaline to choose from - so he can come back at any time he chooses.

[chaosrage 0]

Hello? He wasn't fucked. Jericho got him down with a flying forearm. That was it. Before that, HBK was punching him and had given him a DDT.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Fuck all this "selling/no-selling" talk. The Kip-Up makes the match more exciting, whether it makes sense or not. Exciting matches are GOOD. Exciting matches get the crowd into them. The crowd then is more willing to spend more time and money on the product after they leave the arena, as will those watching on television. This is why nonsensical action films make so much money. They might not be as technically sound as a French art house film, but they're certainly going to be more financially successful, and WWE and studios are companies out to make money, not please stuck-up critics. They don't like to hear too much whining though, so they stick a technical match out once a PPV, or in the movie studio analogy, their Fall/Winter films.

Exciting matches that make no sense are NOT GOOD. Just because a movie draws money doesn't make it good, and just because HBK can't sell doesn't make it good. Besides, action movies with no substance usually fail after 1-2 weeks, while the "french art" crap (which BTW, I hate-I just like things that make sense) or any good movie usually draws in higher box office in the long run + higher overseas sales.

 

THINK.

Try reading my fucking post. The point is that it isn't meant to be good in the super-technical Smark sense, it's meant to be good in the markish sense, which is what really matters because they're out to make money and a card full of nothing but matches smarks would want would be boring as all-fuck and make very little profit. I didn't see a lot of technical marvels in the WWF main event during the Hulkamania era, did you? Look at all those ***** money matches going on during the 98-99 period. Technically sound matches have their place, but it isn't meant to be the only mode of operation, and only in sparse doses as the main attraction.

 

Oh, and by the way:

 

Top Ten Grossing Films of all Time, courtesy of imdb.com:

 

1) Titanic

2) Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone

3) Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

4) Jurassic Park

5) Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers

6) Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

7) Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

8) Independence Day

9) Spider-Man

10) Star Wars

 

Boy, you told me.

[Guest Ray]

Dumb people have money to spend too...so drawing money obviously doesn't make something good.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Dumb people have money to spend too...so drawing money obviously doesn't make something good.

I give up. IT IS GOOD IN THAT IT IS PROFITABLE, NOT IN THE ASTHETIC SENSE, GODDAMMIT.

 

Go back to your one-dimensional "adrenaline is magical pixie dust" argument.

[Slayer 0]

Top Ten Grossing Films of all Time, courtesy of imdb.com:

 

1) Titanic

2) Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone

3) Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

4) Jurassic Park

5) Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers

6) Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

7) Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

8) Independence Day

9) Spider-Man

10) Star Wars

 

Boy, you told me.

Side note: Are those receipts adjusted for inflation?

 

Note that all except one are from the last decade, with 6 coming within the last 5 years

[Art Sandusky 0]

Doubtful. That's what always bugs me about new records being set seemingly with every new big blockbuster, tickets are MUCH more expensive now than even ten or fifteen years ago, something I'd expect to go on all over the planet.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

The kip-up, when done in the sense of Michaels hitting a last-chance move and then going for a few more, and then he goes back to "fucked" but has worked the opponent over enough for them to be at "fucked" as well, makes perfect sense. Stop trying to pretend it doesn't. When the kip-up occurs for no real reason? THEN it makes no sense. For the most part, however, I've seen the kip-up make all the sense in the world, at least when HBK does it.

 

As for another first-hand account of adrenaline:

You know how in high school you have to run the mile during gym now and then as part of the National Fitness Testing, or whatever? I've never, EVER done good on the mile. But the best I've ever done was when I was dead tired, out of shape, and after smoking a couple of cigarettes. Why? Adrenaline.

At my school, if you get 12 minutes or over, you have to run the mile again. There was maybe a minute left, and I still had a lap to go. So I booked it, and got in at 11:55. I was dead tired before that, and dead tired after that. The only reason I really was able to book it was through adrenaline.

 

So stop trying to discount adrenaline, you stupid McFucks. It's more powerful than any man-made drug, and has been known to seemingly give people the strength of 10 men (the entire "mother trying to save child" syndrome).

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Anybody else got an adrenaline story?

 

"Once I got hit by a truck, but adrenaline kicked in, and I was fine. Shawn could do it"

 

There is no mark as blind as the Shawn Michaels mark.

[Guest Ray]

Anybody else got an adrenaline story?

 

"Once I got hit by a truck, but adrenaline kicked in, and I was fine. Shawn could do it"

Man, that's classic. I just fell out of my chair.

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

Anybody else got an adrenaline story?

 

"Once I got hit by a truck, but adrenaline kicked in, and I was fine. Shawn could do it"

 

There is no mark as blind as the Shawn Michaels mark.

Funny you should say that. It actually wasn't too long ago that a friend of mine was HIT BY A CAR but was on such an adrenaline surge after that that he was actually able to walk home. Of course he collapsed in a heap awhile later but that's the whole point, adrenaline is about short term bursts. (he's fine now by the way)

 

But there's no smark as blind as someone who lets their hatred of HBK cloud their vision to the point that they think adrenaline is some kind of made up phenomenon. Of course for some of you I'm sure the closest thing you've ever experienced to an adrenaline burst is removing yourselves from your couch for a brisk walk to the fridge, so I suppose its all relative.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

But there's no smark as blind as someone who lets their hatred of HBK cloud their vision to the point that they think adrenaline is some kind of made up phenomenon. Of course for some of you I'm sure the closest thing you've ever experienced to an adrenaline burst is removing yourselves from your couch for a brisk walk to the fridge, so I suppose its all relative.

JELL-OWNED!

 

Although, to be honest, I'm sure many of them do a kip-up and just say that doing a kip-up after taking a shit kicking is impossible.

[Downhome 0]

Top Ten Grossing Films of all Time, courtesy of imdb.com:

 

1) Titanic

2) Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone

3) Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

4) Jurassic Park

5) Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers

6) Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

7) Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

8) Independence Day

9) Spider-Man

10) Star Wars

 

Boy, you told me.

Side note: Are those receipts adjusted for inflation?

 

Note that all except one are from the last decade, with 6 coming within the last 5 years

Of course not. Those rankings are the Worldwide listings, that's all. The US rankings for all time are quite different...

 

1 Titanic Par. $600,788,188 1997

2 Star Wars Fox $460,998,007 1977

3 E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial Uni. $435,110,554 1982

4 Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace Fox $431,088,297 1999

5 Spider-Man Sony $403,706,375 2002

6 Jurassic Park Uni. $357,067,947 1993

7 Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers NL $339,789,881 2002

8 Finding Nemo Dis. $339,666,356 2003

9 Forrest Gump Par. $329,694,499 1994

 

...and the following is the US rankings, only adjusted for ticket price inflation, listed is the amount for inflation and the other one also....

 

1

Gone With the Wind

MGM

$1,268,839,894

$198,655,278

1939

 

2

Star Wars

Fox

$1,118,591,056

$460,998,007

1977

 

3

The Sound of Music

Fox

$894,368,562

$158,671,368

1965

 

4

E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial

Uni.

$890,845,225

$434,974,579

1982

 

5

The Ten Commandments

Par.

$822,680,000

$65,500,000

1956

 

6

Titanic

Par.

$811,387,059

$600,788,188

1997

 

7

Jaws

Uni.

$804,334,978

$260,000,000

1975

 

8

Doctor Zhivago

MGM

$779,570,661

$111,721,910

1965

 

9

The Exorcist

WB

$694,371,245

$232,671,011

1973

 

10

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs

Dis.

$684,520,000

$184,925,486

1937

 

...by the way, why the hell is this in this thread?

[Guest BionicRedneck]

1. I said a truck

 

2. So he collapsed in a heap? then he wasn't fine. Shawn Michaels kind of adrenaline never had the collapsing part. When he was walking home was he fresh as a daisy ala HBK after he nips-up?

 

3. We all know what adrenaline is, but using it as an excuse for someone no-selling is laughable.

 

4. I don't hate HBK.

 

5. I don't believe your story, because I don't believe you have friends.

 

6.

Of course for some of you I'm sure the closest thing you've ever experienced to an adrenaline burst is removing yourselves from your couch for a brisk walk to the fridge

 

Wow. That zinged.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

"Adrenaline" is a COP OUT for bad selling. Who decides when a burst of adrenaline comes? What is the appropriate time? Is there any? "Adrenaline" cannot be SEEN in the match. Why should we, the viewer, ASSUME that it's "Adrenaline" that is driving them? Especially when they come at inopportune times. "Oooh I'm so hurt and tired... wait, NO I'M NOT... Wait.. yes I am... WAIT NO I AM NOT... Yes... yes I am... NO, here it comes again, 3rd wind! YEAH!" It's ridiculous. It's allowing for sloppy storytelling and poor selling. It completely negates ALL of the work done by the opponent and essentially makes the time we spent watching the beatdown, the bodywork, etc. WORTHLESS. It's wrestlings way of saying "It was all a dream".

 

Hello? He wasn't fucked. Jericho got him down with a flying forearm. That was it. Before that, HBK was punching him and had given him a DDT.

 

HBK - a guy who was in a wheelchair after a sledgehammer shot, a guy who retired for 4 years because of his back - was taking some intense punishment to his back before the nip up.

 

So stop trying to discount adrenaline, you stupid McFucks. It's more powerful than any man-made drug, and has been known to seemingly give people the strength of 10 men (the entire "mother trying to save child" syndrome).

 

Ah, so the situation where HBK did the nip up was life or death? It was NEEDED? No, of course not. It was for a crowd pop. Completely gratuitous.

 

I give up. IT IS GOOD IN THAT IT IS PROFITABLE, NOT IN THE ASTHETIC SENSE, GODDAMMIT.

 

Do you know what "Good" is? Especially in the context which (we) are using it in? "Excitement" is subjective. What is exciting for one person might not be exciting for another. The excitement from the first time I watch a match and the 5th time I watch a match will most likely be different (and lower). Yet what makes that match "Good" or "Bad" remains constant. Elements LIKE selling, LIKE story are what makes a match good. Oh, but that's being "over-analytical"... god forbid one pick out a discrepancy in a match.

 

"Hey, didn't Luke get his hand cut off? Why is he still using it??"

 

"Adrenaline, silly... and the Force... can't forget about the force."

 

Go back to your one-dimensional "adrenaline is magical pixie dust" argument.

 

Yes, because "It got a pop" sure has depth to it.

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

1. I said a truck

 

2. So he collapsed in a heap? then he wasn't fine. Shawn Michaels kind of adrenaline never had the collapsing part. When he was walking home was he fresh as a daisy ala HBK after he nips-up?

 

3. We all know what adrenaline is, but using it as an excuse for someone no-selling is laughable.

 

4. I don't hate HBK.

 

5. I don't believe your story, because I don't believe you have friends.

 

6.

Of course for some of you I'm sure the closest thing you've ever experienced to an adrenaline burst is removing yourselves from your couch for a brisk walk to the fridge

 

Wow. That zinged.

1. Car/truck, same difference. Unless you're saying getting hit by a mere car wouldn't cause injury on its own...

 

2. Of course he wasn't fine. He spent a few days in the hospital after that. But he was able to get up after being hit and even tried RUNNING DOWN the car that hit him so he could beat the fuck out of the driver.

 

And how many HBK matches have you seen if you've never seen him collapse. Also, who's to say in the kayfabe world that he didn't eventually collapse backstage after a match? Do you really need them to draw you a diagram, or are you of the RRR school of thought where "if I didn't see it, it didn't happen".

 

3. Actually its the best excuse for no-selling, but thanks for playing.

 

4. That's fantastic. Neither do I- but a lot of people here do.

 

5. That's the problem with reality- it doesn't care if you believe it or not. I probably wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't seen it for myself.

 

But as for no friends- haha, please. Don't project your own problems on me, Bionic Nerd. (note- random puro guys in your sig do not count as "friends", but my god can they ever sell!)

[Guest BionicRedneck]

OMG!HAHAHAHA!"Bionic Nerd"!!!!1111111

 

Seriously. The best you could do was "Bionic Nerd".

 

I'm sorry, but that sucked.

 

At least when Chris Coey called me "BionicFuckwit" it was slightly funny. "Bionic Nerd"? God dammit, boy.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

And how many HBK matches have you seen if you've never seen him collapse. Also, who's to say in the kayfabe world that he didn't eventually collapse backstage after a match? Do you really need them to draw you a diagram, or are you of the RRR school of thought where "if I didn't see it, it didn't happen".

 

In wrestling, the axiom "Show don't tell" should always apply. You know, since wrestlers generally can't "talk" in the ring and use their bodies and movement to tell the story. HBK has a bad back - we've been told this countless times in the past. We've been shown it as well with him in a wheelchair. In that match, we were shown that Jericho wanted to work HBK's back. Were we told that it hurt HBK? Yes and No. Sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't... can you see the problem here?? Besides, he came out the next night on RAW and beat up HHH and Jericho.

[Slayer 0]

<cut a bunch of numbers>

 

Well, it's quite relieving to know that the US only contributed to 1/3 of the Titanic total income. I guess there's no accounting for taste in the world.

 

<cut inflation adjusted numbers>

 

That makes much more sense. Level the playing field out by total value within the time period, rather than using the pure numbers, and you get a much better distribution.

 

...by the way, why the hell is this in this thread?

 

Saw Discojunge's post, thought it was a good side topic. I could give a shit less about the primary topic, really.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I believe it's in regards to "success = good"

[2GOLD 0]

Are we forgetting that Shawn Michael's gimmick is he can fight off incredible odds and pain just because he refuses to be told he can't do it.

 

The surge makes sense and I'm not fan of HBK. Old days HBK maybe, but new age power of Christ Shawn Michaels just plain sucks.

 

The one thing I found stupid was the "Hulk-up". What a load of bull that was.

 

But HBK vs Angle at Wrestlemania? I'm not seeing how it makes sense.

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

OMG!HAHAHAHA!"Bionic Nerd"!!!!1111111

 

Seriously. The best you could do was "Bionic Nerd".

 

I'm sorry, but that sucked.

 

At least when Chris Coey called me "BionicFuckwit" it was slightly funny. "Bionic Nerd"? God dammit, boy.

Glad you liked it, but I really wasn't trying to be funny. Just calling them like I see them.

 

RRR-

 

I've only watched sporadically lately so I'm not sure which match it is you're referring to. But if you're talking about their last encounter- isn't that the one where HBK tapped out in the Walls? I'd say that's proof his back was fucked up by the match right there. If you're talking about a different match, I probably didn't see it so I can only take your word for it.

 

But my issue in this thread was not over any specific match, just this ridiculous idea going around that adrenaline is some kind of fabrication of "WWE apologists" as I've heard them called and that adrenaline plays no part in fights (real or otherwise).

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

The one thing I found stupid was the "Hulk-up". What a load of bull that was.

There's no difference. The Hulk-Up is as part of Hogan's gimmick as the kip-up is for Michaels. I don't see why they get painted with different brushes. My only guess is because of who they are.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It's in regards to the WM 19 match (actually it's in general, I believe, but the WM 19 match is the best/most recent example of Shawns rather sporadic selling).

 

"Adrenaline" in most cases is not a legitimate excuse for no selling. I can understand its use in matches where it is built and developed, but in terms of random no-selling (like the nip up was), there is no reason for it (other than for a pop - which I understand and accept... just don't try and pass it off as "good" and anything more than that). Wrestling matches are supposed to tell a story, "Adrenaline" tends to go against the story being told. If someone gets beat up for a long time they shouldn't just pop up like nothing happened.

[chaosrage 0]

HBK - a guy who was in a wheelchair after a sledgehammer shot, a guy who retired for 4 years because of his back - was taking some intense punishment to his back before the nip up.

Once again, HBK retiring for 4 years wasn't a factor in the match. The sledgehammer/wheelchair thing happened half a year ago. Jericho did a couple moves on his back, but that wasnt even to get him to stay down. The fact is he was still fighting back and the only move that put him down was the flying forearm, so he was far from fucked.

[chaosrage 0]

Wrestling matches are supposed to tell a story, "Adrenaline" tends to go against the story being told.  If someone gets beat up for a long time they shouldn't just pop up like nothing happened.

Jesus Christ, yes they should pop up. Adrenaline is a real thing, like it or not. We've explained it to you over and over. It's not our fault you still can't understand it.