If Angle can't have Bret give him....

[Guest croweater]

The back provides the base, the legs provide the power and momentum and the stibalization for balance. The back stabalises the trunk and stretches..... that's it. It's like saying that you're mostly using your foot when you hop. It provides a base, but that's about it. I don't watch MMA and don't really care for it, so your reasoning there is way over my head. I'm sure there are many faster ways of getting up, but it looks impressive and showoffy and suits HBK's character as well as poping the crowd.

All the muscles involved in the propultion of a "nip up" are in the lower limbs. All this year I've been learning the actions and motions of muscles in the body at university, the back has very little to do with it except for stretching. The thigh and legs do almost all of the work.

It would probably hurt if you did it with a bad back, but the point is it still could be done quite easily, it would also be more likely to hurt the next day anyway as opposed to a strong feeling of pain directly after or during the action.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Like I said before, I wouldn't put it past Michaels to figure out some "fancy biology" that allows him to easily manipulate his own endocrine system in said fashion

 

Maybe he is some sort of mystical guru who has merged his religious beliefs with modern science and thus has become super-human.

 

Micheal's character has been built up as having an "ungodly amount of stamina"...

 

I'd lean more towards Czechs assertion than that one. Michaels, right now, is more of the fighting veteran. He battles his way through crap. I'd say that a nip up is the opposite of that character.

 

Sure him nipping up is a bad sell point... and it's to pop a crowd... but it's an original way to make a face comeback ... he hits the old flying elbow to the face...then NIP! Up he goes...and the crowd goes ape shit...

 

I wouldn't call it original (cause it's been done a lot, just in different ways), but the crowd does love it. I really don't have a problem with it; what I *do* have a problem with is people trying to justify it as something more than what it is... the adrenaline excuse, the "showstopper" excuse... no, it's bad selling in hopes of gaining a crowd pop. Is it successful? Yes. Is it good? No. It ultimately hurts the story of the match, and depending on the opponent, it hurts them too. In some instances I dig no selling because it serves as a "ooooooOOOOh you're gonna git it NOW!!!" and brings ~intensity~ to the match. But that doesn't mean that it's right.

[The Amazing Rando 0]

I think HBKs nip up has really jumped the shark though...that even casual fans have come to the point where you just KNOW it's coming if he is taking the beating and when it hits it's just predictable...

 

now if he only did it once every three years against high profile guys after taking a huge beating and then winning the match...then YES...it does hurt the match and the opponent...

 

but at this point it's just another crowd pop spot...

 

so in a way I agree wholeheartedly...in another way...it's just HBK and a silly spot... at least he doesn't take like a 50 foot fall and 75 chair shots before it...

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Crow, would you consider the back to be an integral part of the nip up? Reading what you wrote, I would say it does (I would also say that the foot is pretty important when hopping as well).

 

Am I to believe that someone who had to retire for *4 years* because of their back, someone who after a shot from a sledgehammer was put in a wheelchair for months, someone who claimed that it could snap at any moment because it was so bad, could end up taking direct punishment on it and then use it for doing a nip up? Then why should I have even bothered watching Jericho work the back? Why should I even care when HBK's back gets injured? Why should I care when JR goes on and on and on about him retiring because of his back, when JR cries about HBK's back?

[The Amazing Rando 0]

Then why should I have even bothered watching Jericho work the back? Why should I even care when HBK's back gets injured? Why should I care when JR goes on and on and on about him retiring because of his back, when JR cries about HBK's back?

Because Vince McMahon says so.

 

 

Or some shit.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

And Shawn seemed pretty fine the next night on RAW when he ran in to take out HHH and Jericho... or was he running on adrenaline there as well? Maybe he prayed to God and the lord gave him the strength to overcome his physical injuries... yes, that is it. It's not adrenaline, it's not being the showstopper, it's the holy spirit.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Hey, maybe now Jericho can start no selling stuff... they can claim it's his love for Trish and Trishes love for him which gives him the strength to over come all odds. Hey, it's kinda like Punch-Drunk Love

 

So you tell me 'That's that' before I beat the hell from you. I have so much strength in me, you have no idea. I have a love in my life. It makes me stronger than anything you can imagine. I would say 'That's that', Mattress Man.

[Guest croweater]

Crow, would you consider the back to be an integral part of the nip up? Reading what you wrote, I would say it does (I would also say that the foot is pretty important when hopping as well).

If you have the ability to bend over you should be able to nip up, that's the long and the short of it back wise.

[chaosrage 0]

I don't buy this "adrenaline" thing at all. If a man is injured in a fight, he isn't going to nip-up and dance around as if nothing happened. Shawn nips-up to get a cheap pop from the crowd. It's crappy inconsistant selling.

Except he doesn't "dance around as if nothing happened." He fights through the pain for a brief period of time. Anybody whose ever ran a race before knows exactly what a burst of adrenaline is.

 

BTW, this is what Webster's has to say about opinion:

 

opinion (e pinyen, o-)

n.

1 a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge but on what seems true, valid, or probable to one's own mind; judgment

2 an evaluation, impression, or estimation of the quality or worth of a person or thing

 

SYN.opinion applies to a conclusion or judgment which, while it remains open to dispute, seems true or probable to one's own mind

 

Seems like opinions can be wrong to me.

Good. Then, I'm sure you'll be able to understand eventually how your opinion of Shawn no selling is wrong.

[chaosrage 0]

I thought it was also in his character to be the-guy-with-the-crippled-back

That's your problem. Nobody says anything about his back being crippled or his injury being "career ending" anymore. If you still want to think it is anyway, that's fine, go ahead. Although if you remember, Jericho didn't think he was going to win their match because Shawn was the guy with the crippled back. He thought he would win because he was a better wrestler. "My skills have surpassed yours"

 

And, HBK didn't beat him with the kip up either. He did a kip up in the first 10 minutes and the match went on for another 15 without him doing another one.

 

"Yeah, I was just fakin it all - I'm not really hurt. It's ADRENALINE! Oh, that that adrenaline comes and goes when I choose... ain't biology fancy"

 

You're right. There's no such thing as adrenaline. Scientists made it up. It's all part of the conspiracy by the Kliq.

 

I love this board sometimes.

[Guest wildpegasus]

No time to talk but Dynamite (who along with Bruce Lee has the fastest nip up I've ever seen) says there is pressure on the back.

[Guest croweater]

There is but it's short and a simple stretching of lower back muscles, they take no major action in the motion.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Adrenaline? So once adrenaline kicks in, everything that hurt you before doesn't hurt after?

 

Right, so I attack your back, adrenaline kicks in, and your fine. No need for hospitals, huh? Makes you wonder why Jim Ross puts over Shawns plight so much in that SS 02 match really. There was nothing wrong with him. Well, nothing that adrenaline couldn't solve.

 

Jeez...

[Guest croweater]

Adrenaline? So once adrenaline kicks in, everything that hurt you before doesn't hurt after?

 

Right, so I attack your back, adrenaline kicks in, and your fine.

To answer your questions. Yes.

Adrenaline stimulates the sympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system (Think fight or flight response) heart rate increases, digestion ceases, pupils dilate and there is a hightened sence of awareness blood us shunted to the limbs. It's not that you don't feel the pain, it's that you don't notice it in comparison to the desire to fight or flee. It's a very fast acting and potent hormone. In the case of Shawn, a burst of adrenalin would alow him to nip up without feeling pain.

 

Once adrenalin levels go down again, you're back to where you started from.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

In the case of Shawn, a burst of adrenalin would alow him to nip up without feeling pain.

And would this burst also enable him to run around afterwards, doing various (often highflying) moves without any pain? WOW...and there was me thinking it was crappy selling, it's actually Shawn Michaels attempt at making the match as realistic as possible. Good 'Ol Shawn, eh?

 

Does adrenaline also make you less tired, and make your energy totally refreshed for the next 10 minutes? Again, just me thinking Shawn was no-selling while showing no fatigue despite wrestling a supposed world class athlete for 20+ minutes, but I guess I was wrong.

 

It's a shame more wrestlers don't get this magic adrenaline, isn't it?

[ChrisMWaters 0]

^^^^

 

Thank you Croweater. You stated what I was planning on stated.

 

Like I said in an earlier post, I felt no pain when adrenaline kicked in on me in my wrestling match in High School. However, AFTER it was gone, I was sore as hell.

 

And before you people bitch "yeah, right, like that could happen..." ...you're talking to a guy WHO EXPERIENCED IT FIRST HAND!

[ChrisMWaters 0]

In the case of Shawn, a burst of adrenalin would alow him to nip up without feeling pain.

And would this burst also enable him to run around afterwards, doing various (often highflying) moves without any pain? WOW...and there was me thinking it was crappy selling, it's actually Shawn Michaels attempt at making the match as realistic as possible. Good 'Ol Shawn, eh?

 

Does adrenaline also make you less tired, and make your energy totally refreshed for the next 10 minutes? Again, just me thinking Shawn was no-selling while showing no fatigue despite wrestling a supposed world class athlete for 20+ minutes, but I guess I was wrong.

 

It's a shame more wrestlers don't get this magic adrenaline, isn't it?

It happened for me in High School Wrestling.

 

Adrenaline isn't magic. It's a scientific proven point. You're just sounding smarmy about it.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I'm sorry, adrenaline may give you the ability to nip-up and perform a brief comeback, it may help you gut out a match out for longer than usual, and give you strength to carry on, but... it doesn't heal a broken spine.

[Guest croweater]

In the case of Shawn, a burst of adrenalin would alow him to nip up without feeling pain.

And would this burst also enable him to run around afterwards, doing various (often highflying) moves without any pain? WOW...and there was me thinking it was crappy selling, it's actually Shawn Michaels attempt at making the match as realistic as possible. Good 'Ol Shawn, eh?

 

Does adrenaline also make you less tired, and make your energy totally refreshed for the next 10 minutes? Again, just me thinking Shawn was no-selling while showing no fatigue despite wrestling a supposed world class athlete for 20+ minutes, but I guess I was wrong.

 

It's a shame more wrestlers don't get this magic adrenaline, isn't it?

dude.............. you're arguing against scientific fact, and what I thought was pretty much common knowlege.

The sad thing is everything you're saying sarcastically is actually true.

 

"Adrenaline? So once adrenaline kicks in, everything that hurt you before doesn't hurt after? "

Yes, I said before, that is it's effect

 

"Does adrenaline also make you less tired, and make your energy totally refreshed for the next 10 minutes?"

Oddly enough, true again. Adrenaline stimulates your sympathetic nervous system which increases energy and muscle activity by tissue uptake of calcium and magnesium. Ten minutes is a bit much but I have never actually seen Shawn go 10 minutes impervious to pain

 

and no, it won't heal a broken spine.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

C'mon...adrenaline or not, you don't show absolutely NO effects of a gruelling 20 minute match as soon as it kicks in. Inject a cripple with adrenaline and he ain't gonna win the marathon.

 

Also, wouldn't this mean that there has never been a bad seller, ever? Hogan, Warrior, Ahmed Jonson all used adrenaline, too.

[Guest croweater]

hits head continually against brick wall.

 

No the cripple wouldn't win the marathon but he'd really really want to, he'd have plenty of energy and he'd probably give it a go.

 

The difference between Hogan, Warrior and to a much lesser extent AJ is that they did it far less subtly. Regardless of when Michaels makes his comeback, you punch him in the head he still goes down. Adrenalin is a responce to fear or pain (in wrestling) or really any kind of stimulation. Ahmed was too slow to be showing any signs of adrenaloin, Hogan was unrealistic and warrior was also unrealistic. When you've got adrenalin pumping through your body you're still injured or hurt and you still go down when hit. It allows you though to fight back, to fight through pain, or to run away. Shawns is believiable because he still looks injured and fatigued after making a comeback , but he is able to keep fighting.

 

Dude, you really seem way out of your depth in your arguing of this, if you don't understand look it up or something but I've tried to explain this to the best of my ability and it just aint sinkin' in.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Let's see, this is a little unrelated, but here it goes.

 

 

Adrenaline is like a second wind. I was playing a Basketball game a few days ago, and I was dead tired, but I had a type of adrenaline rush allowing me to sprint around the court like I just got in the game, defending 5 different people and grbabing steals.

 

 

Then I just passed out from exhaustion. LOL

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Ok, so it's settled. No selling is fine. It's great how wrestlers can pick and choose anytime for adrenaline to kick in. No need to put any effort in telling a story or selling an injury. Get your ass beat for 20 minutes and just get up cause adrenaline kicks in and win the match. Thank god selling is no longer important in wrestling cause for a while there, it was getting kind of annoying holding wrestlers to that standard.

 

Someone should send smarks a memo - Wrestlers don't need to sell any more.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Fuck all this "selling/no-selling" talk. The Kip-Up makes the match more exciting, whether it makes sense or not. Exciting matches are GOOD. Exciting matches get the crowd into them. The crowd then is more willing to spend more time and money on the product after they leave the arena, as will those watching on television. This is why nonsensical action films make so much money. They might not be as technically sound as a French art house film, but they're certainly going to be more financially successful, and WWE and studios are companies out to make money, not please stuck-up critics. They don't like to hear too much whining though, so they stick a technical match out once a PPV, or in the movie studio analogy, their Fall/Winter films.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Fuck all this "selling/no-selling" talk. The Kip-Up makes the match more exciting

Yeah....I can't contain my excitement when Shawn does it. Really, I lose it every time. I cannot see it enough. Sometimes I watch hundreds of HBK matches one after another, just waiting for him to do it. He never disapoints me. Awesome. Every single time. My life feels improved after seeing it. The sheer excitement of a man "kipping-up" cannot possibly be measured.

 

Just...so....exciting.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

If you have the ability to bend over you should be able to nip up, that's the long and the short of it back wise.

 

Do you know how hard it is to bend over with a bad back? And I wouldn't equate the pressure on the back when bending over to nipping up given the amount of inertial energy attributed to the movement.

 

That's your problem. Nobody says anything about his back being crippled or his injury being "career ending" anymore. If you still want to think it is anyway, that's fine, go ahead. Although if you remember, Jericho didn't think he was going to win their match because Shawn was the guy with the crippled back. He thought he would win because he was a better wrestler. "My skills have surpassed yours"

 

Jericho puts him in the Walls on the floor, however. Back in, Jericho dropkicks him off the apron and gets a backdrop suplex. The psychology is pretty cut and dried here. Delayed suplex gets two. Jericho works on the neck and gets a pretty nasty backbreaker, and the Arrogant Cover~! gets two.

 

All before the nip up (actually it was very close to the nip up). Why would Jericho target the back if it wasn't an issue?? Uh... err... ??

 

And, HBK didn't beat him with the kip up either. He did a kip up in the first 10 minutes and the match went on for another 15 without him doing another one.

 

And that adrenaline lasted all those 15 minutes dispite the slow periods. Riiiight.

 

You're right. There's no such thing as adrenaline. Scientists made it up. It's all part of the conspiracy by the Kliq.

 

In terms of wrestling and especially the story of THAT match, the difference between Adrenaline and Magic Pixie dust is negligible. Adrenaline can be used if the story calls for it, if they built it... they didn't. They usually never do. It's bad selling. It's completely ignoring the work Jericho did. Of course, you could make the case that Shawns back was never really injured and that the nip up symbolized it... but... heh... Jericho continued to work on it and Shawn then decided to sell it... errr.. duh.... duhr...

 

I love this board sometimes.

 

Yeah, someone of us are so whacky with these concepts of "selling" and "story"... I forgot that wrestlers are magical creatures who summons angels whenever they choose to give them strength to get through the pain...

[Art Sandusky 0]

Fuck all this "selling/no-selling" talk. The Kip-Up makes the match more exciting

Yeah....I can't contain my excitement when Shawn does it. Really, I lose it every time. I cannot see it enough. Sometimes I watch hundreds of HBK matches one after another, just waiting for him to do it. He never disapoints me. Awesome. Every single time. My life feels improved after seeing it. The sheer excitement of a man "kipping-up" cannot possibly be measured.

 

Just...so....exciting.

Once again, most of you people are the critics the studios throw the arty films out for during the fall/winter seasons. I never said you overanalytical types liked it.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

C'mon, man! You actually get excited by it?! Damn....

[Guest wildpegasus]

Adrenaline is a truly power force and shouldn't be dissmissed easily. You often won't feel the pain until later. The problem is however it's a variable that's extreamly hard to analyse in a wrestling match.

[Tawren 0]

Fuck all this "selling/no-selling" talk. The Kip-Up makes the match more exciting, whether it makes sense or not. Exciting matches are GOOD. Exciting matches get the crowd into them. The crowd then is more willing to spend more time and money on the product after they leave the arena, as will those watching on television. This is why nonsensical action films make so much money. They might not be as technically sound as a French art house film, but they're certainly going to be more financially successful, and WWE and studios are companies out to make money, not please stuck-up critics. They don't like to hear too much whining though, so they stick a technical match out once a PPV, or in the movie studio analogy, their Fall/Winter films.

Exciting matches that make no sense are NOT GOOD. Just because a movie draws money doesn't make it good, and just because HBK can't sell doesn't make it good. Besides, action movies with no substance usually fail after 1-2 weeks, while the "french art" crap (which BTW, I hate-I just like things that make sense) or any good movie usually draws in higher box office in the long run + higher overseas sales.

 

THINK.