Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted December 2, 2003 I was rewatching that the other day and noticed something very interesting. That I was enjoying HHH's offense more than Shawn Michaels. When I first watched the match I remembered not digging it at all, but now I was loving what he was doing. Simply put, HHH focused all of his offense on HBK's back, utilizing both traditional and newer methods to do more and more damage. His slow, methodical pace added to the drama of the match and allowed HBK time to REALLY SELL the back (Which is what made the match to me). Other than an oddly placed DDT on a chair, every move HHH makes works towards this, and the Abdominal Stretch with the ropes is kinda the high point for him. Now WHY am I posting this? Because I've seen the words "technical wrestling" thrown around a LOT here, and I wanted to make a point. SUBMISSION MOVES DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY EQUAL A "TECHNICAL" STYLE. TECHNICAL WRESTLING SHOULD BE CEREBRAL, CRISP, AND PSYCHOLOGICAL WRESTLING THAT WORKS TOWARDS A DEFINITE GOAL. What HHH was doing wasn't technical in the purest sense of the word, but it did encompass the most important aspects of the genre. Rewatch the match, guys. HHH really did one hell of a job. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Ghost of bps21 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Now...having watched it again...and seeing how much HHH destroyed HBK's back... Can someone tell me why it's ok for HBK to no sell the entire second half of the match? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Adrenaline. And God. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Now...having watched it again...and seeing how much HHH destroyed HBK's back... Can someone tell me why it's ok for HBK to no sell the entire second half of the match? The only way it makes sense to me is that he was playing possum; allowing HHH to be tricked into a false sense of security and countering the big moves when he had to to survive: which is why he countered the Pedigree, Superplex, and Sledgehammer shots. Then when he busted HHH open, he went on the attack. Flimsy? Yeah. Makes more sense than adrenaline? Yeah. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewTS 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 That's the main problem people have with the match, I think. The kippup usually was just as bad as the Hulk Up. However, I have a another opinion on it in the context of the match. I think JR even said it himself. The story of it in the context of the match was that that was the point that the "old HBK" really came to Shawn. Sure, that completely negates Shawn saying that HBK is dead (and was wearing an HBK shirt at the time), but that's WWE logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1234-5678 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 I definitely enjoyed it. **** matchup. One of the best matches Helmsley's ever been involved in, and Shawn's been amazing 90% of the time since he came back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted December 2, 2003 HBK time to REALLY SELL the back (Which is what made the match to me) But...but...he didn't really sell the back. He nipped-up and forgot about it. Shit match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted December 2, 2003 HBK time to REALLY SELL the back (Which is what made the match to me) But...but...he didn't really sell the back. He nipped-up and forgot about it. Shit match. I meant sell it as it happened. I mean the arena was in legit "holy shit" awe at what HBK was seemingly going through. I mean, sure the comeback is a bit hokey, but those are the conventions of professional wrestling. It was done to get the crowd into the match and it worked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Shit match. Exactly. Overrated, illogical garbage. Ridiculously contrived spots. Awful selling. I've always been baffled by the praise it receives. Shit like, "Shawn is god! He came back after four years and carried HHH to his best match ever!" I fail to see how Shawn carried HHH, when the match wasn't good, and HHH outperformed Shawn. ****? I meant sell it as it happened. I mean the arena was in legit "holy shit" awe at what HBK was seemingly going through. I mean, sure the comeback is a bit hokey, but those are the conventions of professional wrestling. It was done to get the crowd into the match and it worked. He didn't just no-sell it for the nip-up, he didn't bother to sell it at all for the rest of the match. "The crowd liked it!" is no excuse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted December 2, 2003 He didn't just no-sell it for the nip-up, he didn't bother to sell it at all for the rest of the match. "The crowd liked it!" is no excuse. Your opinions are your opinions but the match is being done FOR THE CROWD. Not for the nitpicky bastards (and I mean that in the best way) watching at home looking at all the details. That's why no-selling comebacks are used in the first place. That shit doesn't happen in real life unless you're on PCP. Doing something that's seemingly illogical to get the crowd hot is perfectly acceptable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Oh god, not the HBK-selling argument again. So he didn't sell the back the entire match. Big fucking deal. The whole role of the match was something larger. It was to prove that Shawn Michaels was back, and nearly as good as ever. Yes, his back was a factor - but it was not THE factor. Triple H could do as many abdominal stretches and backbreakers as he wants, but Michaels' back at that point was too strong to be put off by a couple of simple wrestling moves. It ached, but it didn't cripple him. With the fans behind him and adrenaline (GASP!!) surging through his veins, he was able to will through the aches and pains to attack Triple H back. Forearms, flying elbows, superkicks - his back hurt, but his desire to defeat his former friend and show the world he still had it was stronger. The kip-up was the culmination of the HBK comeback and showed that, while his back may be weaker than before, it is not shattered and not insurmountable. It was the classic HBK of old, coming back from a terrible beatdown and bouncing back like only he can. Then, the sledgehammer in the back put him down motionless, showing that he was not unstoppable and that the back, while better than what was previously thought, was not 100% healed and would always be a weaker point on Michaels than the rest of his body. What the fuck is so hard to understand about the story of the match? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted December 2, 2003 (edited) Your opinions are your opinions but the match is being done FOR THE CROWD. Not for the nitpicky bastards (and I mean that in the best way) watching at home looking at all the details. That's why no-selling comebacks are used in the first place. That shit doesn't happen in real life unless you're on PCP. Doing something that's seemingly illogical to get the crowd hot is perfectly acceptable. I don't care if a bunch of marks in the crowd liked it. If I'm watching a film and see a big hole in the plot, I'm going to point it out, even if everyone else loves it. If I'm watching a wrestling match and sell shit, I'm going to point it out, regardless of what the crowd thinks. So he didn't sell the back the entire match. Big fucking deal. Yeah, fuck logic! No one could possibly want logical storytelling in wrestling! Selling is one of the most important things in wrestling. The whole role of the match was something larger. It was to prove that Shawn Michaels was back, and nearly as good as ever. That doesn't give him the right to no-sell devastating back work. Yes, his back was a factor - but it was not THE factor. Triple H could do as many abdominal stretches and backbreakers as he wants, but Michaels' back at that point was too strong to be put off by a couple of simple wrestling moves. It ached, but it didn't cripple him. Then why was he selling it like death before the nip-up? With the fans behind him Yeah! Because we all know noisy fans give you magical back-healing powers! What the fuck is so hard to understand about the story of the match? What the fuck is so hard to understand about PROPER SELLING? How about the contrived spots? HHH rolling into place for a shitty table spot? Edited December 2, 2003 by Ray Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Boo_Bradley Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Did I wake up and find myself in September of 2002 again? SEPTEMBER 2ND 2002: Bubba Ray Dudley & Trish Stratus defeated Christopher Nowinski & Molly Holly in a Tag-Team Intergender Tables Match Booker T pinned William Regal Triple H pinned "The Nature Boy" Ric Flair to retain the WWE World's Championship Kane defeated Lance Storm & Christian in a Handicap Match Terri pinned Stacy Keibler in a Lingerie Pillow Fight Match Rob Van Dam & "The Nature Boy" Ric Flair defeated Triple H & Chris Jericho Oh good...I didn't.............. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Your opinions are your opinions but the match is being done FOR THE CROWD. Not for the nitpicky bastards (and I mean that in the best way) watching at home looking at all the details. That's why no-selling comebacks are used in the first place. That shit doesn't happen in real life unless you're on PCP. Doing something that's seemingly illogical to get the crowd hot is perfectly acceptable. I don't care if a bunch of marks in the crowd liked it. If I'm watching a film and see a big hole in the plot, I'm going to point it out, even if everyone else loves it. If I'm watching a wrestling match and sell shit, I'm going to point it out, regardless of what the crowd thinks. And you can point it all you want, but for the millionth time your opinion doesn't mean shit because the purpose of the match is to get the crowd hot. Like he just fucking said. If the whole match was HBK getting beat down and then he just gets a fluke win at the end, that would've sucked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Aside from the no-sell, it just wasn't very good. Even if you ignore Shawn's B.S comeback, it's still just a mediocre garbage match, that had a hot crowd. The heat is about the only good thing to say about the match, IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted December 2, 2003 And you can point it all you want, but for the millionth time your opinion doesn't mean shit because the purpose of the match is to get the crowd hot. Just like I said... I don't give a shit if Shawn marks in the crowd liked it. If they're too dumb to see the giant flaws in it, it's their loss. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Your opinions are your opinions but the match is being done FOR THE CROWD. Not for the nitpicky bastards (and I mean that in the best way) watching at home looking at all the details. That's why no-selling comebacks are used in the first place. That shit doesn't happen in real life unless you're on PCP. Doing something that's seemingly illogical to get the crowd hot is perfectly acceptable. I don't care if a bunch of marks in the crowd liked it. If I'm watching a film and see a big hole in the plot, I'm going to point it out, even if everyone else loves it. If I'm watching a wrestling match and sell shit, I'm going to point it out, regardless of what the crowd thinks. Sure you will, and if you're watching The Rock with a few buddies and you start pointing out inconsistancies during the big action sequences, at best; you'll look like a douche, at worst; they'll tell you to shut the fuck up. It's like an action movie, you have to be willing to accept the conventions of the WWE style pro wrestling match to appreciate the match in it's proper context. If you can't accept that the babyface will make a big, no-selling comeback at the end that sends the crowd apeshit, then maybe you should be watching K-1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Yeah, fuck logic! No one could possibly want logical storytelling in wrestling! Selling is one of the most important things in wrestling. I spent my entire post trying to explain the logic behind the match. And while selling is important.....it's not the be-all and end-all of professional wrestling. You need to your suspend your imagination a little. Realistically, if someone gets punched in the face, the fight's pretty much over. But in wrestling, a guy gets punched in the face and continues on, as if nothing has gone wrong. If you're going to complain about selling that is not 100% flawless, then you can't look past that. The goal of a wrestling match should be to make it ENTERTAINING - not that it's completely technically sound every single second of every single match. The match had a bigger role than for Shawn to just sell the back and end it like that, barely being able to pull off a bodyslam. Hey, wouldn't want to make the fans happy, would we? That doesn't give him the right to no-sell devastating back work. Again, the way I look at the match - Shawn's back wasn't as hurt as everyone thought. It ached, sure, but he rode through the pain to make a stirring comeback. Is it completely impossible to think that yes, it hurt, but he was hoping to lull HHH into a false sense of security - then spring back at him? Sure, it's called psychology.....but what does psychology mean, when there's a back to hold and groan about? Then why was he selling it like death before the nip-up? False security for HHH? It DID hurt, but he knew he had to rally against it if he was going to prove his point to Hunter and the world? Pick a choice. Yeah! Because we all know noisy fans give you magical back-healing powers! As any home sports team can tell you, fan support always helps and can stir a team, or an individual, to a victory they might not have had without the support. Shawn might have thought about giving up but, thinking about all the fans cheering him on - and wanting to prove himself to them - he kept on fighting. What the fuck is so hard to understand about PROPER SELLING? How about the contrived spots? HHH rolling into place for a shitty table spot? Jesus, Shawn marks come up with more excuses than anyone I've ever seen. Proper selling seems to be a matter of opinion. I think it was perfectly fine selling. You don't. Contrived spots? Er.....it's calling getting in position for a certain move. See, that's what wrestlers do when they try to perform an entertaining match for the fans. When they don't, a mess happens. And as for HHH rolling on the table, Shawn hit him with a fire extinguisher and he just happened to fall on it. Fit the flow of the match better than Shawn knocking him down, picking him up slowly - WITH THE BAD BACK (SELLING!! PSYCHOLOGY!!) - then lying him on the table. There was a reason for HHH falling on top of the set-up wooden table. And as for Shawn marks coming up with excuses, sure. Just don't explain to me again why the Benoit/RVD match with endless armbars and Submission-Mania that put the fans to sleep at SummerSlam was RVD's fault. I don't think I could stand to hear another faulty excuse from a Benoit mark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Again, the way I look at the match - Shawn's back wasn't as hurt as everyone thought. It ached, sure, but he rode through the pain to make a stirring comeback "Wasn't as bad a everyone thought"? He retired for 4 years. Then HHH brutalized it. I'd say it SHOULD have been pretty bad. If the story of the match was "Shawn's back isn't really hurt" then it was even worse than I thought. Of course, that wasn't the story of the match, as Jim Ross and co. were putting over the severity of Shawn's injury all night. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Again, the way I look at the match - Shawn's back wasn't as hurt as everyone thought. It ached, sure, but he rode through the pain to make a stirring comeback "Wasn't as bad a everyone thought"? He retired for 4 years. Then HHH brutalized it. I'd say it SHOULD have been pretty bad. If the story of the match was "Shawn's back isn't really hurt" then it was even worse than I thought. Of course, that wasn't the story of the match, as Jim Ross and co. were putting over the severity of Shawn's injury all night. You're proving my point. Everyone thought Shawn was a walking cripple. One blow to the back, and he might never walk again. Hunter, JR, Lawler.....they all overestimated the extent to which HBK's back was beaten down. Only Michaels knew that his back was a little healthier than everyone thought. Sure, it's a sore spot - and weaker than the rest of the wrestlers - but it doesn't make him a walking cripple, by any stretch of the imagination - which is what HHH had believed. If you look at it as "He had 4 years to rest, rehab his back, and make a big, healthy return", then it doesn't sound so bad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest I Got Banned for Sucking Report post Posted December 2, 2003 I don't want to sound like a broken record, but... This is WWE. You can't expect Shawn Michaels to sell a back injury the whole match, and you should appreciate what they did with it, because it was a highly-enjoyable match-up, although it would have probably been better if it hadn't been gimmicked. I agree, watch K-1 if you want all of the matches to make complete sense. You should just appreciate what the WWE Superstars put on the line every single night, and if the matches do not make complete sense, so what? I have to admit, I'd rather if it logic ruled, so what would most smart marks, hopefully, but this is, yes, WWE. It was a great match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Again, the way I look at the match - Shawn's back wasn't as hurt as everyone thought. It ached, sure, but he rode through the pain to make a stirring comeback "Wasn't as bad a everyone thought"? Duh? Obviously it wasn't since it was supposed to be his last match. And now he wrestles every two weeks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted December 2, 2003 You're proving my point. Everyone thought Shawn was a walking cripple. One blow to the back, and he might never walk again. Hunter, JR, Lawler.....they all overestimated the extent to which HBK's back was beaten down. Only Michaels knew that his back was a little healthier than everyone thought. Sure, it's a sore spot - and weaker than the rest of the wrestlers - but it doesn't make him a walking cripple, by any stretch of the imagination - which is what HHH had believed. If you look at it as "He had 4 years to rest, rehab his back, and make a big, healthy return", then it doesn't sound so bad. Right. So afterwards we were informed that Shawn's back wasn't as hurt as once thought, were we? Nope. In other words, to cover for Shawn no-selling you are coming up with a story totally different to the one the company was trying to tell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 If HBK's back wasn't that bad, why was he put out of action for months (IN A WHEELCHAIR) after a couple shots to the back post-match? Nuff said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 Good god can't you people find something new to argue about? This like the 10th HHH/HBK Good or Bad? argument in the past few months. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 If HBK's back wasn't that bad, why was he put out of action for months (IN A WHEELCHAIR) after a couple shots to the back post-match? Nuff said. Couple of shots with a sledgehammer! And about the wheelchair, well you saw him just dance out of it and go on to win the world title at SS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 If HBK's back wasn't that bad, why was he put out of action for months (IN A WHEELCHAIR) after a couple shots to the back post-match? Nuff said. Couple of shots with a sledgehammer! And about the wheelchair, well you saw him just dance out of it and go on to win the world title at SS. So? Triple H used weapons in the match and Shawn no-selled that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffey Report post Posted December 2, 2003 I thought it was a good match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted December 2, 2003 If HBK's back wasn't that bad, why was he put out of action for months (IN A WHEELCHAIR) after a couple shots to the back post-match? Nuff said. Couple of shots with a sledgehammer! And about the wheelchair, well you saw him just dance out of it and go on to win the world title at SS. So? Triple H used weapons in the match and Shawn no-selled that. Er.....a sledgehammer is a little bit different than a chair - which wrestlers can get hit with, but get up a minute later (OMG! NON-EXISTANT SELLING!!) - or a garbage can lid. Ask your friend to hit you with a chair in the back. Then try a garbage lid. Then try a sledgehammer. See which one hurts you the most. I'm sure a hammer being swung with all its might would easily win. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted December 3, 2003 If HBK's back wasn't that bad, why was he put out of action for months (IN A WHEELCHAIR) after a couple shots to the back post-match? Nuff said. Couple of shots with a sledgehammer! And about the wheelchair, well you saw him just dance out of it and go on to win the world title at SS. So? Triple H used weapons in the match and Shawn no-selled that. Er.....a sledgehammer is a little bit different than a chair - which wrestlers can get hit with, but get up a minute later (OMG! NON-EXISTANT SELLING!!) - or a garbage can lid. Ask your friend to hit you with a chair in the back. Then try a garbage lid. Then try a sledgehammer. See which one hurts you the most. HHH used a chair several times (DIRECTLY ON THE BACK), plus backbreakers, garbage cans, and he did use the ladder. Then HBK NO-SELLS IT ALL. Then post-match, HHH kills him with two shots. Explain to me how two sledgehammer shots is worse than 20 minutes of work on the back with weapons. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites