The Heisman trophy........

[Art Sandusky 0]

Ole Miss 2002: 7-6 and a trip to the Independence Bowl against a barely-eligible Nebraska team.

 

Ole Miss 2003: 9-3 (so far) and a trip to the Cotton Bowl against Oklahoma State.

 

Improvement from season-to-season.

 

Jason White is still at Oklahoma because injuries forced him to stay there, Eli Manning stayed at Ole Miss because he felt a duty to stay and continue the improvement of the Rebel program despite having the option of going to the NFL pretty quickly, as I'm sure every team would want the next Peyton (yes, Eli would have been just as good with Peyton's college and current pro supporting cast).

 

Heading into the season, Oklahoma was a national championship team already. No one expected Ole Miss to nearly beat the eventual #2 in the nation.

 

Just consider what Jason White has had to help him, and consider what Manning has had. Manning has almost single-handedly resurrected the Ole Miss program in his four years after a loooooong dormant period since his father left.

 

So once again, Manning for the Heisman.

[Damaramu 0]

White fought his way back from the injuries. And compare OU with Nate Hybl to OU with Jason White. Different team.

[Art Sandusky 0]

But the program has pretty much been on the same national title-worthy level for a while now. Keep perspective here.

 

Like I said, stick Manning in there with that OU offense at his disposal and the defense to back him up, and he'd fuck shit up, and by fuck shit up I mean they'd still be undefeated.

[Damaramu 0]

But the program has pretty much been on the same national title-worthy level for a while now. Keep perspective here.

 

Like I said, stick Manning in there with that OU offense at his disposal and the defense to back him up, and he'd fuck shit up, and by fuck shit up I mean they'd still be undefeated.

I don't think so. I think Jason White's more than proven himself to be the best. Stick Jason White at Old Miss....they'd be in one of the 4 BCS bowls right now.

[Bored 0]

Here's a little trivia for you...of the 68 previous winners of the Heisman only seven of them played on a team that won at least a share of the national championship:

 

1938 Davey O'Brien, TCU

1945 Doc Blanchard, Army

1947 John Lujack, Notre Dame

1949 Leon Hart, Notre Dame

1976 Tony Dorsett, Pittsburgh

1993 Charlie Ward, Florida State

1997 Charles Woodson, Michigan

[Guest Flyboy]

Manning > White

[Damaramu 0]

Manning > White

White>Manning.

 

Hey that's pretty fun.

 

In all actuality. White's had a more impressive year than Manning. So if you were going to give the Heisman to a quarterback it should be White.

[Art Sandusky 0]

But how has he proven himself to be the best? By being on a team that everyone but The Sporting News expected to roll all over everyone?

 

Compare White and Manning's worst games. Manning lost 44-34 to an eventual 8-4 Memphis team where the two interceptions thrown had no impact on the final score and the defense collapsing in the 4th quarter was what allowed Memphis to score 24 unanswered and come back to win. A similar situation happened against South Carolina (defensive collapse in the second half), but such a lead had already been established that it didn't matter. None of Ole Miss' losses were blowouts either, each being contested until well into the 4th quarter.

 

Jason White's worst game, obviously the Big XII title game, had Oklahoma completely embarrassed and had him throwing two interceptions as well, but one of them was HUGE, coming early in the 4th and killing his team's chances to make a comeback. Oklahoma had also all but abandoned the run by that point, and White ended up with 54 pass attempts by the end of the game. The game was placed on his shoulders to salvage and he failed.

 

When the game was placed on Manning's shoulders during the season, he made things happen and was unflappable under pressure. White experienced pressure in a single game and couldn't guide the team to victory when it counted most. He's good, and deserving of being one of the finalists, but Manning is a better player.

[Damaramu 0]

But how has he proven himself to be the best? By being on a team that everyone but The Sporting News expected to roll all over everyone?

 

Compare White and Manning's worst games. Manning lost 44-34 to an eventual 8-4 Memphis team where the two interceptions thrown had no impact on the final score and the defense collapsing in the 4th quarter was what allowed Memphis to score 24 unanswered and come back to win. A similar situation happened against South Carolina (defensive collapse in the second half), but such a lead had already been established that it didn't matter. None of Ole Miss' losses were blowouts either, each being contested until well into the 4th quarter.

 

Jason White's worst game, obviously the Big XII title game, had Oklahoma completely embarrassed and had him throwing two interceptions as well, but one of them was HUGE, coming early in the 4th and killing his team's chances to make a comeback. Oklahoma had also all but abandoned the run by that point, and White ended up with 54 pass attempts by the end of the game. The game was placed on his shoulders to salvage and he failed.

 

When the game was placed on Manning's shoulders during the season, he made things happen and was unflappable under pressure. White experienced pressure in a single game and couldn't guide the team to victory when it counted most. He's good, and deserving of being one of the finalists, but Manning is a better player.

White was also hurt and near a concussion in that game. Think about that. He even admits to not remembering much about the second half.

[Bored 0]

Damaramu just get the Oklahoma football dick out of your mouth for two seconds and realize you really have no clue what your talking about. Jason White will win the Heisman and he's deserving but he's not a better quarterback than Eli Manning.

[Damaramu 0]

Damaramu just get the Oklahoma football dick out of your mouth for two seconds and realize you really have no clue what your talking about. Jason White will win the Heisman and he's deserving but he's not a better quarterback than Eli Manning.

A little hostile there aren't we?

I'm looking at the numbers. Jason White posted better numbers this season.

And maybe I wouldn't be so up on OU if so many people didn't seem to take it upon themselves to put them down and diminish there accomplishments at every turn. Everytime I turn around it's

"Oh well that wasn't THAT impressive."

and

"Well they're good.....but not THAT good."

And then when they dominate the season.

"Oh they just played easy teams...."

Then they finally lose and it's

"HA! I KNEW IT! THEY SUCK! HAHAHAHA!"

and then they get into the title game and are actually favored

"BOO! This is all OU's fault! How dare they run there BCS numbers up! Fuck them! LSU will pound them! They aren't even a good team!"

So maybe if people didn't take it upon themselves to bash OU at every waking moment for some odd reason then I wouldn't be so quick to defend.

[Art Sandusky 0]

And how does that help his case? I would think "The Best Player in College Football," as the award is labeled, would be able to play through that. Worse has been played with and been victorious. "But he was hurt" might fly with normal discussion, but not with Heisman talk. You're either able to perform well every game or not, not to mention that he got drilled on an awful pass attempt decision that was his first interception.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Damaramu just get the Oklahoma football dick out of your mouth for two seconds and realize you really have no clue what your talking about. Jason White will win the Heisman and he's deserving but he's not a better quarterback than Eli Manning.

A little hostile there aren't we?

I'm looking at the numbers. Jason White posted better numbers this season.

Once again, LOOK AT THE TEAM HE WAS PLAYING WITH. I could post 50% of that much if they stuck me in there.

[Bored 0]

Eli Manning is projected as the #1 pick overall in the NFL Draft.

 

Jason White is project as a 3rd or 4th rounder in the NFL Draft.

 

It has nothing to do with the Heisman but it has everything to do with who is actually a better quarterback. Oh and Ben Rothlesberger is a better qb than Jason White too.

 

Damaramu I just wish you'd have an opinion on a college football team not named Oklahoma for once.

[Damaramu 0]

Damaramu just get the Oklahoma football dick out of your mouth for two seconds and realize you really have no clue what your talking about. Jason White will win the Heisman and he's deserving but he's not a better quarterback than Eli Manning.

A little hostile there aren't we?

I'm looking at the numbers. Jason White posted better numbers this season.

Once again, LOOK AT THE TEAM HE WAS PLAYING WITH. I could post 50% of that much if they stuck me in there.

Sure you could.

See that's another thing.

If one OU player does good it's like "He's only good because his team is good! I'm better than he is!"

You could not do half of what Jason White does with that team. Once again.......Nate Hybl.

[Damaramu 0]

Eli Manning is projected as the #1 pick overall in the NFL Draft.

 

Jason White is project as a 3rd or 4th rounder in the NFL Draft.

 

It has nothing to do with the Heisman but it has everything to do with who is actually a better quarterback. Oh and Ben Rothlesberger is a better qb than Jason White too.

 

Damaramu I just wish you'd have an opinion on a college football team not named Oklahoma for once.

I like Michigan and I like Missouri.

 

I gurantee Jason White would be a 1st round draft pick if his knees weren't shot to hell. Nobody has faith his knees will hold up. Yet he's still going crazy all over the college football scene.......hmm.....wonder how good he'd be if he didn't have bad knees.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Damaramu just get the Oklahoma football dick out of your mouth for two seconds and realize you really have no clue what your talking about. Jason White will win the Heisman and he's deserving but he's not a better quarterback than Eli Manning.

A little hostile there aren't we?

I'm looking at the numbers. Jason White posted better numbers this season.

Once again, LOOK AT THE TEAM HE WAS PLAYING WITH. I could post 50% of that much if they stuck me in there.

Sure you could.

See that's another thing.

If one OU player does good it's like "He's only good because his team is good! I'm better than he is!"

You could not do half of what Jason White does with that team. Once again.......Nate Hybl.

Nate Hybl, who won the Cotton Bowl in 2001 against a very good Arkansas team after the previous team's national championship squad is gutted in a pretty big way by people leaving, and last year's humiliation of #4 Wazzou in the Rose Bowl. Point? The story of Oklahoma the last four seasons has been the defense being overpowering and waiting for the offense to finally develop the players to catch up. This year they did so. Once again, as you misconstrue any critique of any Sooner quality or player to mean that the person or team is the worst ever, Jason White is good, but he's not Heisman good.

[Damaramu 0]

Damaramu just get the Oklahoma football dick out of your mouth for two seconds and realize you really have no clue what your talking about. Jason White will win the Heisman and he's deserving but he's not a better quarterback than Eli Manning.

A little hostile there aren't we?

I'm looking at the numbers. Jason White posted better numbers this season.

Once again, LOOK AT THE TEAM HE WAS PLAYING WITH. I could post 50% of that much if they stuck me in there.

Sure you could.

See that's another thing.

If one OU player does good it's like "He's only good because his team is good! I'm better than he is!"

You could not do half of what Jason White does with that team. Once again.......Nate Hybl.

Nate Hybl, who won the Cotton Bowl in 2001 against a very good Arkansas team after the previous team's national championship squad is gutted in a pretty big way by people leaving, and last year's humiliation of #4 Wazzou in the Rose Bowl. Point? The story of Oklahoma the last four seasons has been the defense being overpowering and waiting for the offense to finally develop the players to catch up. This year they did so. Once again, as you misconstrue any critique of any Sooner quality or player to mean that the person or team is the worst ever, Jason White is good, but he's not Heisman good.

Yet when he wins it he will be Heisman good. Because the voters obviously feel that he is the best.

But of course with the way people only pay attention to recent events and not the whole thing then Manning will probably get it despite White having a better season overall.

[Art Sandusky 0]

What? If they did look at recent events more, they'd see Manning losing to LSU also. I really think you're confusing the quality of the team with the quality of the players we're talking about.

 

Oh, and the voters also think USC is the best, but do you see them even playing for the national title? That's how much what the voters think matters.

[ANKLELOCK 0]

Im loving reading this. This is great.

 

And Kotz, why did you change your name back? Why change it in the first place? I like that name.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Im loving reading this. This is great.

 

And Kotz, why did you change your name back? Why change it in the first place? I like that name.

Mr. McFeely was wearing on me, Disco Pee Wee was cool and all, Mr. Macarena was phat up, but I wanted to go back to having cool Kylie and car-related banners and sigs, plus everyone calls me Kotz anyway. The chance to Disco Pee Wee came about when I told a mod, any mod, to change my name to whatever they wanted. Lo and behold, Zack made my name Mr. Macarena. Then Agent of Oblivion, in concert with Zack, had my name changed to Disco Pee Wee.

 

Oh yeah, Manning for the Heisman.

[Damaramu 0]

Im loving reading this. This is great.

 

And Kotz, why did you change your name back? Why change it in the first place? I like that name.

Thank you for that wonderful insight. Next week.....Anklelock says "I like it when the weather is nice!" stay tuned!

 

 

And no I'm not confusing the quality of the team and players. I watched White play. He was impressive as hell all season. Especially with his bum knee's. And OU had pretty much the same offense under Nate Hybl and he couldn't seem to get the ball to the endzone. Under Jason White they got it there constantly.

And once again....the AP which you guys seem to swear by.....voted Jason White player of the year.

 

And once again I wouldn't be so quick to defend OU if people weren't such assholes about them. Like you and Bored are fine Kotz. But it's people like ANKLELOCK and Cartman that piss me off. They seem to want to jump into every thread that mentions OU and remind us that they suck and shouldn't get shit.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Well I see where Dama got that 10 first place votes. I think he meant for the regions. Besides I think Jason White should get it because... he's a senior, a hell of a QB this year, and the Heisman votes for the best player of the year. Fitzgerald is a sophomore so he's out.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Damaramu, I think you're also somewhat overestimating what Jason White did that Nate Hybl didn't. There's no question that White put up way better stats and played better all season, but he didn't really make the overall team *that* much better.

 

I mean, 2002, OU finishes 12-2, wins the Big 12, and wins the Rose Bowl. If they win at the Sugar, they're going to finish 13-1 and win at least a share of the national championship. There is a significant difference in going from top 10 team to #1 team, but I think so much of that credit should go to the Oklahoma defense. A&M put up 54 yards. Fifty-four yards! Texas, big scorers all year long, only put up 13 points. OU returned a lot of starters and experienced players on defense, and that incredible brick wall of a secondary kept them basically untouchable for the whole year. White performed very, very well, but I'm more impressed with someone like Rivers or Manning, who gut out wins for the team despite average (and in NC State's case, abysmal) defenses falling apart at the worst times.

 

OU was dominant, and White was a part of that, no question. However, I don't think he's nearly as large a part of his team's success as Manning was for Ole Miss or Larry Fitzgerald was for Pitt. Have you seen Pitt's blase running game? Have you seen Pitt's AWFUL run defense? Without Larry Fitzgerald making the big plays, Pitt doesn't beat Virginia Tech or Boston College. Against Rutgers, Fitzgerald's yardage and big catches are what kept them comfortably ahead despite doing almost everything they could to give an easy win away down the stretch.

 

Without Jason White, OU goes 12-2 and wins this year's Fiesta Bowl. A great player, worthy of his Heisman nomination, but not what winning the award is supposedly about.

[Vern Gagne 0]

This is out there. IMO...it's OU's defense with all the superstars. The offense has a whole is outstanding, but individually it lacks a true superstar. So White deserves alot more credit this season for OU's outstanding offensive season, than many give him credit for.

[2GOLD 0]

Eli Manning is the most overrated QB in college football and if his last name wasn't Manning then he wouldn't even be talked about as one of the best in college football.

 

The Manning last name is treated like god's gift to QB lately and it's making me ill when I look at this guy. His team won two more games not because he improved but because his opponent got weaker.

 

When you look at his numbers in the big games his team won, he was average at best in those games guys. He didn't throw a touchdown against Florida, but did get picked off. He threw one pick and one touchdown against LSU but was a horrible 16/36 for 200 yards.

 

When you look at his schedule and yes, I watched him on tv a few times since ESPN2 was in love with him, he wasn't as impressive as people seem to make him out to be.

 

He got better sure, but the Heisman isn't about getting better year to year last time I checked. It is the best player in college football and sadly somewhere along the line people forgot what the award was about.

 

Eli has a very strong arm but his accuracy doesn't impress me, his touchdown numbers don't impress me and his big game performance doesn't impress me.

 

When I think of impressive I think of Phillip Rivers, who as I said, the Wolfpack would NOT have won one game without him. He threw for 422 yards with 4 touchdowns in an overtime loss to Florida St, threw for 315 with 4 TDs and 2 INTs against Ohio St, and his only bad game was against Maryland with 262 yards and an INT with a knee injury from the beating he took.

 

And now I look at the major awards and even THEY are being treated like the Heisman now. The best overall player in the country of those three was Fitzgerald followed by White. Manning is good, but he is not as good as people make him out to be.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Also there was Andre Ware, who didn't even go to a bowl game at all.  As I look through the records here, there was a four season stretch where UHouston had a great record but didn't go to a bowl.  Were they on probation?

Yep. If I recall it was due to some pretty major recruiting violations that nearly resulted in the death penalty. Instead Jack Pardee and Jenkins (can't remember his first name now) put in the Run-and-Shoot, put up ungodly numbers (95-17 vs. SMU comes to mind) and didn't go anywhere. Of course that was during the final days of the SWC (Southwest Conference) when football recruits in high school would suddenly get a lot of cash and sometimes brand new cars just before national signing day.

 

BTW I wholeheartedly support Kotenz's drive to bring us all things Kylie.

[2GOLD 0]

Also there was Andre Ware, who didn't even go to a bowl game at all.  As I look through the records here, there was a four season stretch where UHouston had a great record but didn't go to a bowl.  Were they on probation?

Yep. If I recall it was due to some pretty major recruiting violations that nearly resulted in the death penalty. Instead Jack Pardee and Jenkins (can't remember his first name now) put in the Run-and-Shoot, put up ungodly numbers (95-17 vs. SMU comes to mind) and didn't go anywhere. Of course that was during the final days of the SWC (Southwest Conference) when football recruits in high school would suddenly get a lot of cash and sometimes brand new cars just before national signing day.

 

BTW I wholeheartedly support Kotenz's drive to bring us all things Kylie.

 

All probation in college football is really a death sentence if you are minor college football program though.

 

Look at SMU, they STILL haven't recovered from that death sentence they received. Houston is slowly coming back but SMU is still gone and forgotten.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Eli Manning is the most overrated QB in college football and if his last name wasn't Manning then he wouldn't even be talked about as one of the best in college football.

 

The Manning last name is treated like god's gift to QB lately and it's making me ill when I look at this guy. His team won two more games not because he improved but because his opponent got weaker.

 

Because we all know that Archie blew and Peyton is an overrated piece of shit with a Colts helmet on.

 

The case being made for improvement is not that the player themselves improved, it is that their improvement bettered the team, and Eli's has made Ole Miss a formidable opponent again. Tell me the last time anyone really worried about playing Ole Miss. Manning IS Ole Miss football, physically and emotionally. When he leaves, there's going to be a gaping hole in that entire city. Can you really say this about the other candidates?

 

I'd also like to add that you lumped the LSU game in with "the big games his team won," which is wrong. Oh, and you said "big games his team won," which brings me to the other guy you mentioned.

 

Phillip Rivers would be in there, but like BJ Symons and unlike Manning, he didn't have the defense to help him out. Ole Miss' defense was spotty at times, but at least it was more effective than the defenses of NC State and Texas Tech. Both Rivers and Symons lost their big games. Rivers lost to Florida State, Maryland, and Ohio State while Symons lost Texas Tech's big games in the form of Texas and Oklahoma. Offensive dynamos, but they lost the big games despite putting up massive numbers, which you seem to have a fascination with.

 

When considering something like this award, you have to take the numbers into account for sure, but you also have to look at what those numbers really meant. Two interceptions for White in the Big XII title game (Sorry Damaramu, but it's the best case I can think of where a seemingly innocent statistic was more important than appeared). Okay, sounds like he had a bad day at best, but how and when those two interceptions came were key and what really made them killer. The first ended a long Oklahoma drive that would have kept the game from getting out of hand and he tried to be acrobatic in the process and got injured for his trouble, keeping in mind such skittishness is what caused him to be injured these last two seasons. The second interception came early in the fourth on a must-score Oklahoma series and was returned for a touchdown. Now then, will your numbers tell you about that? Will your numbers note that those 16 completions by Manning in the LSU game mostly came in the second half when they let him take over? Do they recall that his own lineman tripping him up on their final drive was what caused their efforts to come to a screeching halt?

 

This is why you just watch the games and worry about numbers later, otherwise you've got people hailing BJ Symons as the next Johnny Unitas because he's putting up 500 yards in an overall system designed to play for a shootout every game.

 

And Conspiracy Victim, I've been bringing the Kylie love for a year and a half now, you just noticed it now.

[Slayer 0]

Eli Manning is the most overrated QB in college football and if his last name wasn't Manning then he wouldn't even be talked about as one of the best in college football.

 

The Manning last name is treated like god's gift to QB lately and it's making me ill when I look at this guy. His team won two more games not because he improved but because his opponent got weaker.

 

Because we all know that Archie blew and Peyton is an overrated piece of shit with a Colts helmet on.

Archie was definitely a good QB who never got to really taste a big game because he played on a shitty team, so he's exempt.

 

Now as for one Mr. Peyton, until he actually wins a big game, I will contend that he is an overrated QB. Let's look at all the history here:

 

1) Owned by Florida for his entire college career. UT beats Florida the year after he leaves. Concidence?

 

2) The '98 Orange Bowl. Peyton's chance to leave UT on top with a 12-1 record while dashing the Cornfuckers title hopes? Not here.

 

3) 0-3 in the playoffs with the Colts

 

So it is of my opinion that Peyton is an overrated QB who gets a lot of face time in the media because he's an "aw shucks" southern pretty boy.