No Mercy

[Zorin Industries 0]

Did itcome across like that? If so sorry, I didn't mean it too. What puts it over the top for me is the submission system, if I work a body part, I want it too mean something.

 

Plus you're able to create Alex Wright, which is more important.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Nah my posts were more so geared at Andy, and if your good with CAT you can pull out a good Berlin!

[Zorin Industries 0]

Fuck that, Berlyn didn't have the techno music

[Guest Ghettoman]

But thats the beauty of HCTP, he can if you want him too....

[Zorin Industries 0]

Yeah, but the submission system in No Mercy was great, there was nothing better than wearing down someones leg, then locking on a figur four

[Guest Ghettoman]

Why's that not fun in HCTP?

 

I haven't played a game with a better system of setting up a good moveset.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I dunno, No Mercy just seemed to have everything perfecrtly set up. Plus I was more interested in wrestling back then, so it was probably more entertaining

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I have to agree that No Mercy is, overall, the better game. Matches lasted longer, the CAW was incredibly better (save for the amount of moves you could give your CAW), and the gameplay seemed much better.

 

For instance, in SmackDown, the characters don't limp or favor a body part. Rather, when they begin to go in the red, they'll act "dazed" after doing a move, and then go right back to normal. In No Mercy, everything was affected by a weakened body part. If a flyer's leg was worked over, and he usually jumped to the top rope, he'd now be forced to climb it, and the distance he jumped wasn't as far. Moves didn't hurt as much once you've been weakened, and submission holds actually had a direct affect on the body part they were working over after being applied two or three times.

 

Both games have their up's and down's, and I'm currently infatuated with HCTP, but no game will ever top No Mercy (as far as WWF/WWE games go) until a SD game comes out that is nearly identical to it.

[dubq 0]

VPW2 has an incredible mask generator and no slowdown, plus it has an awesome shoot- fighting mode. It is greater then No Mercy.

I didn't mean the four player slowdown in tag matches though.. I meant the game is slow. No Mercy. It's slow. Slower than HCTP. Trying to play it after playing all of these games that move at a great pace is just painful.

[Big McLargeHuge 0]

Well, we are playing next-gen games. And it was widely acknowledged that Aki crammed alot into the game.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Corey the length of your flight was never affected, I remember having 40 minute matches with my friend mike who had the texas cloverleaf as his finisher, and being able to hit lengthy diving head butts in and out of the ring towards the end. Not sure where you got that from but it certainly wasn't in my game.

 

And can anyone tell me why the CAW was better other than being able to give your guy 4 attires?

[AndrewTS 0]

That would be where you wrestle.

 

I guess with all the backstage areas HCTP gets the edge in that aspect.

 

And a better CAW!? STORYWISE!?!

 

I said "on par" storywise, although No Mercy didn't completely forget "minor" details like you holding a title or having a valet.

 

I didn't say it was a better CAW, I mean it's better for putting wrestlers in the game. You don't have to piss around for 20 minutes putting together a decent face, because of the premade ones. The SD games should have pre-made faces as an option if you don't want to assemble them one-by-one.

 

Come on, your using the littlest aspects of the game to justify it being better. More moves in Caw, more indepth body design, more attire to work with, masks, you can make taunts for your guy. If your only reasoning is limited to the amount of attires you can have and being able to edit people's attire you have nothing.

 

And you also say...

 

And how is it botched? Your suggestions were body specific attributes, something that borders on over doing it.

 

So, something that was done in Fire Pro 5 years ago, is included in No Mercy, and ACTUALLY AFFECTS GAMEPLAY is less important than being able to customize the length of your created wrestler's toes? Yeah, that makes a hell of a lot of sense.

 

The mask edit is a good point in HCTP's favor, but since we actually have Mysterio in WWE now it's not as much a big deal.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't follow the product that buy the games, but to suggest there's so many of them that they should cater directly to them is simply retarded.

 

Gee, you're so right. Those people who watch the WWE and play the games were begging and screaming for unbalanced gameplay after playing games like No Mercy and Shut Your Mouth. Yeah, screw having matchups where you can win based on skill, we need to be able to accurately recreate the epic A-Train squash on Rey that garnered so many huge buyrates and made A-Train a huge star.

 

Seriously, did anyone call for that crap? I don't know of any.

 

Your gripes with the damage meter comes down to preference and is almost laughable as a point to why it's a better game. Where's the fun in that? Uh, that would be playing the match, being able to see how much you have left in the tank, keeping yourself safe and makes for a much more dramatic build when your playing a friend because when your on the brink of destruction your much more aware. I could go on....

 

Thank you Corey, for this retort:

 

For instance, in SmackDown, the characters don't limp or favor a body part. Rather, when they begin to go in the red, they'll act "dazed" after doing a move, and then go right back to normal. In No Mercy, everything was affected by a weakened body part. If a flyer's leg was worked over, and he usually jumped to the top rope, he'd now be forced to climb it, and the distance he jumped wasn't as far. Moves didn't hurt as much once you've been weakened, and submission holds actually had a direct affect on the body part they were working over after being applied two or three times.

 

Your using personal preference and the smallest of gripes to suggest No Mercy is not only better, but much better than HCTP.

 

This from the guy who completely no-sold my point on style dictating your proficiency with moves, and carefully picking and choosing which points to respond to.

 

Also, I said No Mercy is definitively better?

 

Let's recap what I did say.

 

HCTP took baby steps forward in graphics and gameplay, but took a HUGE step back because of the lousy character balance. SYM is still better to me.

 

If No Mercy were faster and had better graphics I'd not even clamor for an update. We just gotta hope WMXX on GC has a decent season mode isntead of that Revenge mode crap. However, No Mercy still stacks up pretty well today, but it can get hard to readjust after playing the PS2 games.

 

 

You happened to make a good point with:

 

Saying you personally like it better is fine, to say it's clearly a better game like it's some obvious fact were dumb for not realizing is just retarded.

 

But you say it AFTER you said:

 

No Mercy does some things better that other games don't, but in terms of the total package nothing touches HCTP.

 

You make a list of every little good thing about HCTP and compare it to the same list for No Mercy and there's just no comparison. It's like comparing an old skateboard to a new one and saying the old ones better because you liked clay wheels.

 

Hypocrite.

[Guest Ghettoman]

How was that hypocritical? I'd be willing to debate factually which game is better but if your gonna make points on preference just say you prefer the game and be done with it. When you go on and on about how this is better than that, then it's easily debatable.

 

Premade faces? Thats your reasoning as to why the caws better? Come on, premade faces were eliminated so you can produce a variety of different ones, it's smarter, and for someone who was complaining about not having four attires I highly doubt a time consuming CAW is much of a gripe with you.

 

Why would they need body specific attributes? Strength is how strong you are, do you really need to make feet stronger than a left forearm? I mean really, a system like that would be perfect, and if your gripe is the game isn't perfect lets rejoice because we've just found something we agree on. The system works logically and unless your still stuck on hosses having an advantage(because why should a 6'7" guy who weighs 400 pounds be able to destroy someone under 6'0" whos 150?) there's no gripes. I could understand if most of it didn't matter, or mattered to the point where lacking one certain thing would mean you could never win, but thats not the case. I could take a guy on 1 strength who's finisher is the chick kick and work my way to a victory.

 

Yeah because WWE fans are really about skill, which explains the gross overness of Benoit and the inability of characters like Austin and Rock to draw. About 2/3 of people who bought that game bought it to go through season with there favorite WWE wrestler, I highly doubt most of them were turned off when they learned strength determines the amount of damage you do.....

 

HCTP has the WWE style of selling, sell the damage, and then try to ease out of it for the rest of the match. Can't fault a game for supporting it's product even if it's a fault in there product. And the limp thing in No Mercy wasn't as great as your making it out to be, as you'd do it after any kind of lower body work, including a bunch of atomic drops, same with the arm and the upper body. It was repetitive and simplistic. At least in HCTP it's more specific, whether it lasts or not.

 

And style dictates your profficiency with moves, if your strong, your moves hurt more, if your fast, you move faster, if your strength is technique your matches will be full of reversals. What would be more logical, a smark system; Cruiser Moves, Technical Moves, Power Moves? The system is logical and works, now get over it.

 

And your earlier statements would mean more if you didn't continue on in debate with why No Mercy's better, you randomly concede points that don't fault your arguement for the sake of looking like your in the middle, but really all you've done is counter every point I've made as to why HCTP is better, which would of course mean you think No Mercy is better.

[AndrewTS 0]

How was that hypocritical? I'd be willing to debate factually which game is better but if your gonna make points on preference just say you prefer the game and be done with it. When you go on and on about how this is better than that, then it's easily debatable.

 

I didn't go on about how "this is better than that." I quoted myself, where did I say anything about that?

 

You were being a hypocrite because you bitched about me saying that No Mercy is superior as a FACT instead of an opinion. I didn't, but you said that HCTP is definitively better, hence my opinion is wrong and your opinion is fact? Hypocrite.

 

Premade faces? Thats your reasoning as to why the caws better?

 

I didn't say the CAWs were better. Never did. You're pulling imaginary points out of nowhere to justify your opinion.

 

Corey said the CAW was better. Ask him where he gets that from. However, I feel the CAW in No Mercy focuses on the important stuff. I PREFER it in that way. Happy now?

 

Come on, premade faces were eliminated so you can produce a variety of different ones, it's smarter, and for someone who was complaining about not having four attires I highly doubt a time consuming CAW is much of a gripe with you.

 

Attire is more important than "Nose 32."

 

Why would they need body specific attributes? Strength is how strong you are, do you really need to make feet stronger than a left forearm? I mean really, a system like that would be perfect, and if your gripe is the game isn't perfect lets rejoice because we've just found something we agree on.

 

Nash's lower body should be as strong as his upper body? A certain wrestler with a neck injury should be as resistant to damage in that area as anyone else? No, that should not be.

 

And no, HCTP isn't perfect, but I'm stating there are games out there that are more precise in determining offensive/defensive power of limbs. No Mercy does that, and HCTP doesn't. That's one reason why I am saying that it is my opinion that No Mercy is superior gameplay wise.

 

The system works logically and unless your still stuck on hosses having an advantage(because why should a 6'7" guy who weighs 400 pounds be able to destroy someone under 6'0" whos 150?) there's no gripes.

 

It's been stated many times that WWE inflates stats, and who is 6'0" and 150 pounds? Spike Dudley? No one is griping about him not having a fair shake even if he was in the game. Way to completely miss the point.

 

I could understand if most of it didn't matter, or mattered to the point where lacking one certain thing would mean you could never win, but thats not the case. I could take a guy on 1 strength who's finisher is the chick kick and work my way to a victory.

 

*Cue 5 minutes of constant offense to make a dent in one guy's body part.*

 

Yeah, that'd sure make for an entertaining match that'd be fun to play and watch. Wow, you TOTALLY proved your point there.

 

Yeah because WWE fans are really about skill, which explains the gross overness of Benoit and the inability of characters like Austin and Rock to draw. About 2/3 of people who bought that game bought it to go through season with there favorite WWE wrestler, I highly doubt most of them were turned off when they learned strength determines the amount of damage you do.....

 

You're 99.99% full of bullshit, in my opinion. If they found out that have to do 500% more damage to other wrestlers than they need to do to them to win a match, I'm sure they'd be at least 30% unsatisfied.

 

And 78% of stats are made up on the spot, so don't bother to take that last paragraph seriously.

 

Where does "skill in playing the game" have any bearing on "skill of favorite wrestlers?" So, you think they like that someone who isn't as good at the game can pick Brock Lesnar, and have an advantage over them if they pick John Cena or an even heavier one if they pick Rey Jr.?

 

Explain to me a logical reason for this switch over in gameplay? Please, I'm dying to know because I can't think of a single one. Did some massive overload of feedback after SYM demanded "Ay suk @ ur gamz pwlz m8k Brk Lezner and Goldburg stnger than evrybdy elze."

 

Also, who gives a fuck what the majority think if we're talking about which game is actually better? By that rationale a shitty licensed game is better than an actual good game by a no-name publisher that didn't sell well.

 

HCTP has the WWE style of selling, sell the damage, and then try to ease out of it for the rest of the match. Can't fault a game for supporting it's product even if it's a fault in there product.  And the limp thing in No Mercy wasn't as great as your making it out to be, as you'd do it after any kind of lower body work, including a bunch of atomic drops, same with the arm and the upper body. It was repetitive and simplistic. At least in HCTP it's more specific, whether it lasts or not.

 

Everyone in WWE sells like Test? Uh, no.

 

In No Mercy, yeah they'd sell the same way too often, which is better than of not selling at all. Again, how was this such a problem in No Mercy that it couldn't have been added to an improved for HCTP?

 

Again, you're doing nothing to prove to me that HCTP is better, which is the point you're trying to make. If you're trying to prove to me "HCTP captures the feel of the WWE better," bravo because I agree: I think the WWE sucks too..

 

And style dictates your profficiency with moves, if your strong, your moves hurt more, if your fast, you move faster, if your strength is technique your matches will be full of reversals.

 

Moving faster helps you almost jack squat in HCTP, and DOES NOT AFFECT THE EFFICIENCY OF MOVES ONE IOTA!! And doesn't matter how many reversals you do if your opponent can beat you in four crappy moves. He just has to outlast you and hit them and he'll eventually win unless he gets no offense at all.

 

Hosses can jump just as high/far with High Flying moves, do moonsaults/lionsaults/planchas just as well, and basically have advantages to their size and power without accompanying logical disadvantages.

 

That's not a wrestling game, that's a fighting game with poor gameplay balance.

 

What would be more logical, a smark system; Cruiser Moves, Technical Moves, Power Moves?

 

Yup, just like SYM and Fire Pro.

 

And your earlier statements would mean more if you didn't continue on in debate with why No Mercy's better, you randomly concede points that don't fault your arguement for the sake of looking like your in the middle, but really all you've done is counter every point I've made as to why HCTP is better, which would of course mean you think No Mercy is better.

 

You, on the other hand, keep saying HCTP is better, but when it comes to the meat and potatoes--the gameplay, you can't come up with a decent argument other than it's "like the WWE is in real life." Whoopie. That doesn't make it a better game.

 

If WWE didn't exist, and a wrestling game like HCTP came out with screwed-up character balance, and favoring of certain types of wrestlers, would it rank better as an actual game than a well-balanced one? No.

Edited January 1, 2004 by AndrewTS

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Here's the argument in a nutshell.

 

 

Everyone bitches and moans over A VIDEO GAME that will in no way shape or form help anyone in their life.

 

"Damn! Kane selling HCTP is really hurting my baseball skills!"

 

"Why doesn't he limp?! Now I will never be able to fix my car again!"

 

Now to be a hypocrite, I'll argue why HCtP is better than No Mercy.

 

Personal opinion, HCTP is better.

 

CAW's are a lot more idnept, unlike No Mercy where 10 of my create dguys had either Eddy/Edge/HBK tights.

 

More realistic that someone like Steven Richards can't beat Triple H unlike in no Mercy wher eI walked through the Storyline as Scotty 2 Hotty without ever losing. (on Medium Dif.)

 

Graphics are better obviously.

 

Back to CAW's, you have to actually work to make them good, instead of slapping together 3 or 4 CAW's in No Mercy in the span of 3 minutes with the same stats as Jesus Christ.

 

No slow down, has full entrances, can choose whether or not you want a manager, without having to worry about creating for example, Head Banger Mosh out of Val Venis in NM and still have Trish as his manager.

 

My game data has never been erased, unlike the 6 times in the past NM has done to me. (erasing all my CAWs in the process)

[AndrewTS 0]

Patrick Ewing, STILL God: You're still wrong. Just about all of that opinion.

 

I'm surprised that all you HCTP lovers have neglected to mention that HCTP has the clear advantage on modes of play, since that actually is a clear-cut advantage. It has all the modes of play that No Mercy has (except that Survival is better than Slobberknocker, since it isn't just one on one and the rewards are actually worthwhile), plus tons more.

 

"Back to CAW's, you have to actually work to make them good, instead of slapping together 3 or 4 CAW's in No Mercy in the span of 3 minutes with the same stats as Jesus Christ."

 

It takes 2 years in Season to make a CAW from scratch to have the real life stats of a real life wrestler that wasn't included in the game (whether because of time constraints or not being in WWE). That's for just one CAW. If you want to put multiple CAWs in the game and get their stats accurate, expect to spend weeks pissing around to do something that in SYM or No Mercy you could do RIGHT OFF THE BAT.

 

Bitching about being able to max out stats in No Mercy is as moronic as those who bitched about Strider 2 for PS having unlimited continues. DON'T USE THEM, MORON!

Edited January 1, 2004 by AndrewTS

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Patrick Ewing, STILL God: You're still wrong. Just about all of that opinion.

 

I'm surprised that all you HCTP lovers have neglected to mention that HCTP has the clear advantage on modes of play, since that actually is a clear-cut advantage. It has all the modes of play that No Mercy has (except that Survival is better than Slobberknocker, since it isn't just one on one and the rewards are actually worthwhile), plus tons more.

 

"Back to CAW's, you have to actually work to make them good, instead of slapping together 3 or 4 CAW's in No Mercy in the span of 3 minutes with the same stats as Jesus Christ."

 

It takes 2 years in Season to make a CAW from scratch to have the real life stats of a real life wrestler that wasn't included in the game (whether because of time constraints or not being in WWE). That's for just one CAW. If you want to put multiple CAWs in the game and get their stats accurate, expect to spend weeks pissing around to do something that in SYM or No Mercy you could do RIGHT OFF THE BAT.

 

Bitching about being able to max out stats in No Mercy is as moronic as those who bitched about Strider 2 for PS having unlimited continues. DON'T USE THEM, MORON!

I never played Strider 2 so I won't use those continues.

[Renegade 0]

I prefer the AKI engine in a wrestling game as I seem to be very good at them (yes I know everyone says that).

 

The flaw in the AKI engine is that if your playing agaisnt an opponent of equal skill it becomes a big game of keep away. If you strike first you are countered first.

 

 

Still light years better gameplay wise compared to the Yukes games.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

WHY I THINK NO MERCY'S CAW IS BETTER:

 

While the ability to edit in-depth your CAW's face and body is very good, it is overly time consuming. If I'm looking to make a CAW of, say, Raven, I don't want to have to go in and spend 10 minutes trying to get his body proportional. I'd rather pick a pre-made body type and build off of that. No Mercy's attires were also better, as the pants didn't look like shit. Seriously. Go into HCTP's CAW, check out the pants in the Attire category. They all suck. None of them look like anything anybody would ever wear (and have of them are "fat pants," so to speak), so why would I put one of those on my CAW?

 

Another thing about the CAW is the overall lack of long hair. Sure, there are a few selections for long hair, but I find myself reverting back to the same 2 or 3 hair selections because the rest are way too goofy looking. Seriously...CLOUD'S HAIR IS IN THE GAME. CLOUD'S. And yet long, straight hair isn't.

 

While the length editor of tights and shirts is a good idea, there are far too many designs that don't look good at all, and you find yourself wading through the crap (about the first 10 or so pages of designs for tights) to find a decent design.

 

But I'll lay off of the APPEARANCE part for right now, and go to the moves.

 

Yes, there are a wider variety of actual moves to select from...as long as you're choosing a finisher. Too many of the moves are simple things, like an armdrag, that I don't think should belong in any of my CAW's movesets. So I find myself using the same moves, over and over again, just because they're slightly effective, and I don't have the multi-level grappling system that No Mercy has.

 

For instance, you had a selection of moves that you could choose from for "Weak Grapple." These moves generally did less damage than "Strong Grapple" moves, and were faster in delivery. When you got to the "Strong Grapple" moves, in came the pain (no pun intended). These were moves you'd expect wrestlers to be able to pull off to set up a finish.

 

While there aren't as many corner grapples as there are in HCTP (which I feel HCTP has drastically improved upon), putting somebody in the Tree Of Woe didn't take up a move space. And once the opponent was in a Tree Of Woe, you had a specific list of strikes (standing, strong, and running) you could perform on them.

 

While we're in the corner, let's talk about flying. In No Mercy, you had one flying move to a standing opponent in the ring, one flying move to a standing opponent on the outside, one to a down opponent in the ring, one to a down opponent outside, one special in the ring, and one special outside. That's six flying moves, altogether. You get five in HCTP (two standing, three down); six if one of your CAW's SmackDown is from the top rope.

Also, in No Mercy, each worker had a different length they could jump: Shortest, Short, Medium, Long, and Longest. The lighter workers could jump Long and Longest distances, whereas the heavier ones jumped Short and Shortest distance. This was realistic, as a man that was big, such as Albert, could not jump as far as a man that was light, such as Jeff Hardy. In HCTP, everybody jumps the same distances, hosses and cruisers alike. AndrewTS pointed this out, and you completely ignored it, for the most part.

 

Shall we move on to Specials? Okay, I think we will. In HCTP, you get two SmackDown's. TWO. In No Mercy, you get seven special. SEVEN. One Front Grapple, one Rear Grapple, one Running Grapple (when the opponent is running), one Front Corner Grapple, one Rear Corner Grapple, one Flying Inside The Ring, and one Flying Outside The Ring. Mighty impressive over HCTP's two Specials, don't you agree?

 

While some moves were added to HCTP that I love (such as the 99 Crusher {Ki Krusher '99}, Tiger Bomb 1 {Tiger Driver '91}, and Super Star Press {Split-Legged Moonsault}), ones that were in No Mercy that made me take notice seemed to have been eliminated (T-Bone DDT {Exploder '98}, Samoan Neckbreaker {TKO}, Fire Thunder Driver, Phoenix Splash, Hangman's DDT {Sheer-Drop Vertical Powerbomb}).

Also, a small issue I have with HCTP is the inclusion of the Ki Krusher '99, but no Styles Clash, despite Crash Holly using the Styles Clash as his finisher during the end of his WWE tenure. But, as I said, a small issue.

 

Those, not to mention that you actually stood a chance as Christian against HHH, are reasons why I feel No Mercy is the superior game.

[Guest Askewniverse]

Also, a small issue I have with HCTP is the inclusion of the Ki Krusher '99, but no Styles Clash, despite Crash Holly using the Styles Clash as his finisher during the end of his WWE tenure. But, as I said, a small issue.

The Styles Clash is in HCTP. It's listed as the Landing Pin.

[LJSexay 0]

Corey... that was an amazing post.

[AndrewTS 0]

Corey... that was an amazing post.

I agree. *applause*

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Also, a small issue I have with HCTP is the inclusion of the Ki Krusher '99, but no Styles Clash, despite Crash Holly using the Styles Clash as his finisher during the end of his WWE tenure. But, as I said, a small issue.

The Styles Clash is in HCTP. It's listed as the Landing Pin.

Weird, because I thought I unlocked (and checked out) every move there is. Then again, I was expecting it to be labeled as the "Crash Landing," so hey.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

I'll agree, that the time it takes to make a CAW in HCTP is a little long (I spent 20 minutes making a Jushin Liger so it would look like his real life self), I still think it's better if you want complete acuracy.

 

In No Mercy, like I mentioned, I found myself using the same ring attire for long tights guys, because the selection was horrible. I wouldn't want Kanes, or Chris Benoits, or Chris Jerichos tights on say, Randy Savage. I want something with a cool design...so I made Macho Man Pre-1989 look because nothing was really suitable.

 

The Plus side of Smackdowns CAW is you can create things outside of actual wrestlers. I'm sure some people will create a wild animal or one of those lame Dragonball Z guys just for the hell of it.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

But I don't think it should take an hour and fifteen minutes just to make a complete CAW, and then be forced to play a whole ~64 match season just to upgrade your stats a little bit.

 

And, like I said earlier, the lack of a "weak" and "strong" grapple system is somewhat annoying, as you're then forced to mix your stronger grapples with your weaker ones.