Guest Goodear Report post Posted January 8, 2004 I might give you Val on that (although I personally find him to be pretty dull when he pulls back on the gimmick), but Godfather was only ever going to get over with a gimmick like that after numerous failures as Papa Shango and Kama The Supreme Fighting Machine. Being The Godfather was the only thing that ever brought the guy any pops. What you're saying is tantimont to saying Wayne Ferris would be World Champ if he never dressed up like Elvis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted January 8, 2004 I'd take a dozen people from this board over both hollywood writers and wrestling writers. Am I one of them? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted January 8, 2004 The Godfather was great as the opening match guy because he popped the crowd early and the other wrestlers didn't have to kill themselves to top anything because the opening match was never going to be a good one. I could handle a couple of bad matches on a show like that as long as they were self-contained and got the crowd off on the right note. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted January 8, 2004 Yup. Godfather then = Rikishi now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 Don't diss Kama The Supreme Fighting Machine... Val has a good look, good promo, good wrestling skills - of course, you could fill in "good" with "basic", but that's besides the point, since "basic" has gotten some people pretty far. He had upward potential but couldn't break-away from the "Val Venis" name (literally!). World Champ? No. World Champ contender? Sure. I'm not saying anyone "would" be anything; "could", on the otherhand, is possible - unless they're saddled by/with a gimmick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted January 8, 2004 Val is the kind of guy that, if we still had two companies, would have been pushed to the moon had he jumped to WCW, just because the office marked for WWF guys. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted January 8, 2004 Well considering Val hasn't really been doing the porn thing since ... what? The Mankind feud? What you're seeing right now in Sean Morely with a modest womanozer gimmick. The guy just doesn't have the right package for me. He's my Hardcore Holly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 Funny, I suggested the team of Holly and Val in 02 Whenever his name is "Val" he's doing the porn star gimmick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted January 8, 2004 Don't diss Kama The Supreme Fighting Machine... I actually didn't have a problem with the 'Supreme Fighting Machine' Gimmick but Godfather didn't have the right personality or skills for it. Give that to someone with legimate fighting credentials and right look (ie not Savio Vega) and you could have a nice midcard roadblock. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 I liked the gimmick, I liked the look he had for it, it didn't really work the way I would have liked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted January 8, 2004 Whenever his name is "Val" he's doing the porn star gimmick. Nah. By that standard, Undertaker is doing the deadman gimmick even while riding around on a motorcycle. The 'Val Venis' character has been boiled down to just a name now since he stopped making movies with chicks, dumping them, and getting cheered anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted January 8, 2004 True. HHH reinvented himself without a name change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 But Taker hasn't reverted to "Mark Calloway" as Sean did with Chief Morley. Plus, "Taker" is often the exception to the rule. The name itself "Val Venis" is restricting, and the only reason they aren't playing up the schtick is because they simply aren't pushing him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewTS 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 What does Chris Kreski do now? Is there no way at all that Vince could convince him to come back? The travel schedule was too rough for him. I've heard nothing about any sort of other "pressures" but I may be wrong. As for what he's doing, I don't know if this is the same guy, but apparently not much lately. I guess if WWE were to stop touring as much and end up taping their shows several weeks in advance at one arena he might be able to be welcomed back... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted January 8, 2004 WWE is about the most stressfull writing gig you can land what with the travel and shooting schedule. Taping months in advance is kind of bad for shows like RAW and Smackdown though if you consider how much that hurt WCW just with their Worldwide programming. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 I'd say it would be more stressful with it's restrictive environment - as in, "Here's a great idea" *talks about great idea* "wow, that's really great... now let's ignore that and do something stupid with me" - Writer talking to Steph. Hard work with great reward and appreciation is worth it - Hard work with no reward and little value in the company probably isn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted January 8, 2004 All writing for television is like that though. Writing for wrestling (and soap operas, that run the same sort of schedule) is doing that twice a week, every week until your heart explodes. Compare that to 22 episodes a year... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 I can't imagine that writing for regular television is as bad as it is in the WWE (creatively, not in terms of # of shows) - because I haven't seen a show with as bad of writing as the WWE. I also can't imagine any educated writer saying "Sure, let's just drop this storyline" or "Who cares if it doesn't make sense". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justcoz 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 I still think it's best to have a mixture of both wrestling minds and Hollywood writers. Wrestling today is a huge television production. It was different back in the day. Dusty, Ole, Flair or Watts could get a booking assignment and lay out angle development leading into the matches they wanted. Television was slower paced however. You could fill one and half hours of squash matches and interviews with a main event match and maybe one huge angle to close the show. Things are much more faster paced now. I don't necessarily like this but I wouldn't want to see 90 minutes of squashes again either. They need wrestling minds and television/Hollywood minds working together. The writers should be required to have some wrestling knowledge and I agree with whoever posted that they should be sent through a training system of sorts. Jim Cornette would be great at this, I believe. Let them watch old tapes and learn about the business a little bit before putting them into this environment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted January 8, 2004 But most TV shows aren't produced live weekly in front of a incredibly huge studio audience. Taking 'Buffy' as an example because of the similar nature of serialized storylines, Joss had the time to basically re-write every script that came his way and still was under a time crunch each and every season despite doing 22 hours of programming a season. A WWE writer simply doesn't have the time to do that amount of editing since he produces the same amount of material in something like 5 weeks. Plus his work is thrown on television live weekly and is widely dependant on the ability (and health) of wrestlers to carry the ball on the first take. So yes, more crappy writing gets produced in WWE and Soap Operas than on Fraiser. But the two 'fastfood' choices are working so fast that they are producing 10 times as much stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewTS 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 I thought that there were separate writing teams for Raw and Smackdown? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 I'd take a dozen people from this board over both hollywood writers and wrestling writers. I agree....if any of you have ever read SWF or OAOAST you'd see that we're not all just blowing smoke. Some of us can write something better than WWE. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kizzo 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 Russo/Kreski are two of the same writers...they both want to get the casual viewer invovled.....but also try to please the hardcore base...I think Kreski had the most sucess of doing that.. Kreski was able to give the die hard wrestling fans what they want, and was able to also keep the casual viewer involved by creating some can't miss storylines...Although the focus would always be the entertainment side... The main goal of the two were to get enough casual viewers to get hooked to the show and turned them into hardcore fans or just fans who just enjoy WWE programming...that way they would eventually buy the PPV if hooked to a certain storyline.....They had to create a balance.....that's what is missing on WWE programming...there is no balance....one minute you are doing entertainment...the next its an all 80's wrestling show....you just can't do that..... During the time of 97/ early 01...the WWE's main fans were "mainstream viewers"...they are they ones who increased WWE's revenue and earned them tons of cash...and made the company become public...and McMahon knew that...you don't hit 6's and 7's in ratings every single week with just a hardcore base.. I'm guessing thats the reason Vince went with an all Hollywood writing team..because he knew what viewers were watching the shows...and generating the cash...so he had to hire writers that were able to please those fans......no one expected that they would do so well on the wrestling side of things making the crash tv/wrestling coming together as one... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2004 But most TV shows aren't produced live weekly in front of a incredibly huge studio audience. 1. That's just Raw. 2. This audience doesn't exactly have the highest standards. 3. The size of the audience is more relevant to the performers, not writers. Taking 'Buffy' as an example because of the similar nature of serialized storylines, Joss had the time to basically re-write every script that came his way and still was under a time crunch each and every season despite doing 22 hours of programming a season. But let's be fair, Joss had more pressure to produce than Vince from the networks. PLUS Joss has a standard to live up to as well as creating and developing a show for pretty hardcore fans - Vince would go out of his mind trying to appeal to the hardcore wrestling fan and raising his game to "that" level. A WWE writer simply doesn't have the time to do that amount of editing since he produces the same amount of material in something like 5 weeks. I can't really understand that. Really, what they're "editing" is like 3-10 minutes per wrestler - right? They have at least 5 days to do that. And they won't be doing all wrestlers, either. NOT TO MENTION, a lot of the dialogue is left to the wrestlers themselves and 40 minutes of the show is in-ring. I mean, shit, we wrote countless storylines based on a wrestlers last name that showed more creativity and effort than what the WWE does, and that was done in what, 2 hours? I don't buy it. They should be producing better shows - they're "professional" writers, yet they're putting out an amateur product. Plus his work is thrown on television live weekly and is widely dependant on the ability (and health) of wrestlers to carry the ball on the first take. True, but that's, again, more pressure on the wrestlers. And, again, it's not like they're pressured to write compelling, thought-provoking television... and even then, they can't get the "simple" stuff right. So yes, more crappy writing gets produced in WWE and Soap Operas than on Fraiser. But the two 'fastfood' choices are working so fast that they are producing 10 times as much stuff. The WWE isn't even producing "fastfood" level quality, though. Not even close. And even then, I know that producing storylines for long periods for many guys is a bit tough - I'm not really debating that - I'm saying that "the pressure" isn't so much from the workload as it is on the environment. Writers who continue to get their ideas ignored or butchered or used-but-not-to-the-full-effect or rejected for something much worse - they are not being rewarded for their work and it's a seemingly thank-less job . These "hollywood" writers have to know something about continuity and "good" story's so they can't totally be at fault - the process is. So when you're producing "as much TV as they do" and travelling and whatnot, and not getting the sense of gratification, that must really piss you off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Korgath Report post Posted January 9, 2004 I'm saying that "the pressure" isn't so much from the workload as it is on the environment. Writers who continue to get their ideas ignored or butchered or used-but-not-to-the-full-effect or rejected for something much worse - they are not being rewarded for their work and it's a seemingly thank-less job. And that, I think is the real problem behind the WWE. They've discovered that it's "okay" to churn out mediocre work as long as management blames the workers and not the creative team. Think back. How often, in the past year, have the McMahons actually derided the creative team for their work? Not Katie Vick, not HLA, not Torrie/Al/Dawn, zip, nip, nada. The writers have learnt that it's only important to please the bosses. Nothing else matters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted January 9, 2004 That's because the writers write what Vince tells them to write for the most part. I wouldn't be blaming Creative so much as I would be blaming Vince, since he is the one person with the power to change things that won't do it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kizzo 0 Report post Posted January 9, 2004 That's because the writers write what Vince tells them to write for the most part. I wouldn't be blaming Creative so much as I would be blaming Vince, since he is the one person with the power to change things that won't do it. McMahon loves this creative team...of course its put together by his own daughter...so I doubt he would be to critical of the team... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
