What if Shawn Michaels never got injured?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

 

You see nothing wrong with any of these?

 

It's the commercialization of christianity (and yes, it has been done before - lots of times - and it's not right). It's taking a very private thing and making it public and making money off of it. And it's all so VERY superficial - there's no real meaning to any of it, the cross is Michaels' swoosh..

 

"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your father who is in heaven.

 

Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left had know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be secret; and your father who sees in secret will reward you.

 

And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say you, they have their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your rather who sees in secret will reward you.

 

And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think they will be heard for their many words."

 

Not to mention he's equating himself with Jesus by putting his name on the cross, the "H.B.K." lettering on the shield is put interestingly (holy trinity?), and I don't think any % of the profits from these shirts go to anyone needy.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

The HBK fish thing is horrible every way you look at it.

[Guest Anglesault]

on the shield is put interestingly (holy trinity?),

I thought it was a play on Constantine.

[Guest Quik]

Those shirts are all well and good, but I'm waiting for the one with Michaels hanging on the cross with the WWE title around his waist.

 

Then on the back it says "He shall rise again..." in bold lettering with a cross next to it.

[Guest SP-1]

The scripture you provide applies if he's faking. Which I'm not convinced he is. As it is, I think he's honest, the merchandise is part of a character that he's using to connect to a Christian demographic (and hopefully to others). If he were using God simply as a tool for popularity (and in our society it's tantamount to career suicide to say you're a bible-believing Christian and actually act like it to some degree), I'd have a problem with all of it.

 

The way you're using those scriptures, it appears as if the Bible is teaching to keep your faith super private and not let the secret out. The context which they are in teaches not to use your faith as a means to gain sympathy or prominence. I'll agree that Michaels is walking a fine line right now and I hope he doesn't fall into the sinful side of what he's doing. The cross I do disagree with but the shirts are the best he's able to do with the company and character he's working with right now.

 

Is he dangerously close to becoming a problem? Potentially, I'll give you that. But right now I'm unconcvinced that he's crossed that line.

[Guest Ghettoman]

I think the fish logo is pretty well into the line.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The scripture is saying "don't flaunt it". The scripture is saying "don't use it for popularity".

 

... what is HBK doing here?

[Guest SP-1]

It potentially could be but I don't know his intent with it. If he's attempting to put across that he's in Christ and that Christ is the reason 'the legend lives on,' then I don't have a problem with it.

 

But yeah, there's also the potential that he's saying something alot worse. In which case I'd agree with you guys that he's doing something wrong.

 

We've gotten away from the main point. Which is that he's not being preachy and there's nothing wrong with a Christian character/figure in the wrestling environment.

[Guest SP-1]

HBK doesn't need those things to be popular. He's been popular for most of the last decade. His returns have generated big pops and his association with DX had him in the spotlight.

 

He became a Christian. His character reflects that now. He hasn't used God to get back to the top. This message board should tell you that a bunch of wrestling fans isn't the place to try and be a Christian around. At least if you are trying to be popular.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I'd be curious to see the figures from HBK's merch sales and find out if in fact that Christian teen demo is really buying what he's saying.

[Guest SP-1]

So would I.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

There is something wrong with a christian saying "LOOKITMEEEE! I LUV THA JEEEEESUS!" which is what Michaels is really doing.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Michaels needs fuckin Benny Hinn as a manager.

[Guest SP-1]

Why is there something wrong with a Christian being vocal about their relationship with God?

 

Deny Him here and He will deny you there. That's scriptural too. There's a fine line and the line of right and wrong lies in your motives. Could he be knee deep in prideful sins right now? Yeah, I don't deny that. The point is that he hasn't been preachy, and that there's nothing wrong with a Christian character being out there.

 

If I come across something that indicates his heart isn't in the right place, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

If I come across something that indicates his heart isn't in the right place, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.

 

HE PUT HIS FUCKING NAME ON THE CROSS! HE IS SELLING THOSE!

 

Why is there something wrong with a Christian being vocal about their relationship with God?

 

"Thus, when you give alms, *sound no trumpet before you*, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they be praised by men."

 

You can be vocal about your relationship with god... just not infront of millions of people all the while saying "buy the shirt"

 

Deny Him here and He will deny you there.

 

What does this have to do with selling t-shirts?

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Austin was the man, whether Michaels was around or not (which he found out when he tried to back out of doing the job at Mania XIV). Personally, I think he wouldn't want to play second banana to Austin and would have ended up with his buddies in WCW. His presence wouldn't have made much of a difference there, and right now he would be whereever Scott Hall & Sean Waltman are hanging out (or dead).

 

His 'career ending' injury ended up saving his career in the long run.

[Guest SP-1]

The scriptures you've provided might apply to this if they were in their proper context. Those are talking about the Sanhedrin and the Jewish leadership at the time who were letting moneychangers into the temple and departing from the heart of what the religion was about. Those scriptures are saying not to be hypocritical.

 

I said earlier that the cross I'm not down with. I also acknowledge that Michaels may be crossing the line, but I can't say whether he is or not because I don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

 

Believe me, Rudo, I see exactly what you're saying. And I give you the full possibility that I'm reading Michaels' completely wrong and that he's doing exactly what those scriptures are saying not to do. That's entirely possible, man.

 

And, you know, truthfully, there may be a part of me that sees a Christian out there that I can pull for instead of being stuck with the Austins and the Triple H's, and that part of me just doesn't want to see Shawn doing something wrong here. That's possible. I'll tell you what. For whatever it's worth, I'll examine those scriptures across a few different english translations and look into the originals with my professors and I'll pray about it. If the shade changes and I think you've nailed Michaels, I'll gladly say so.

 

The original point still doesn't change. He's not being preachy in my opinion. And there's nothing wrong with a Christian character being out there.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I never said there was anything wrong with a Christian character being out there, infact, I would like to see a TRUE christian character, since creatively there's a lot of stuff you can do with that (creatively, I'm not a Christian so I don't really care about anyone "representing"). Michaels is half-assing it and really the only "christian" thing he does is wear a cross (superficial). I wouldn't even call his character primarily christian, since more of it is based on him being a "legend". What I have a problem with is the merchandise, him getting down on his knees and "praying" in the entrance way *for all to see*, and then acting righteous (and in my view pretentious) in the confidential pieces. And it's not just limited to religion, there was a piece that had Michaels go on a navy ship - visiting troops in the harbour. In it, Michaels talks about growing up in a military family. So when he visited the troops, one of the first things he said was "You in the army? - Oh, Navy. My dad was in the army". Michaels likes to advertise. There isn't a modest bone in his body, never was. That scripture is talking about modesty. It's about keeping your faith personal. Have you actually read it?

[Guest JohnnySwift]

I'm also a Christian, and I have a problem with HBK's portayal of his faith too. I mean honestly it appears superficial. Why would a Christian come out to Sexy Boy? What's any different from Val Venis saying he's a Christian, coming out and "praying" at the top of the ramp only to continue his old mannerisms once he hit the ring?

But ultimately if this goes the way of Dustin Rennolds, Jake Roberts etc and it is just a gimmick then HBK'll find another way to try and win over the crowds again until he finally retires for good.

Oh, one more thing, after seeing that HBK cross, how long until he comes out with an HBK crucifix with him doing his trademark pose while nailed to the cross?

[AndrewTS 0]

The "good Christian" HBK character has, from what I've seen:

 

Taken cheap shots at Bret Hart

 

Joined the nWo as a heel

 

Pulled sneak attacks on opponents

 

Accepted tainted wins and even cheated to win

 

Like a sore loser, he cost Jericho the Rumble match

 

Basically, he's acted hardly any different than anyone else.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I'd love to see a Jeremiah Cloutier-esque character in the WWE. They always do Religion storylines and gimmicks horribly, so I don't actually mean that - but in a perfect world, that character would rock. He would "save" other wrestlers while HBK questions his motives.

[Guest JMA]

The "good Christian" HBK character has, from what I've seen:

 

Taken cheap shots at Bret Hart

 

Joined the nWo as a heel

 

Pulled sneak attacks on opponents

 

Accepted tainted wins and even cheated to win

 

Like a sore loser, he cost Jericho the Rumble match

 

Basically, he's acted hardly any different than anyone else.

Not to mention encouraging Jindrak and Cade in their thieving ways.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

All this Christian/commercialisation bullshit has absolutely nothing to do with, you know, the TOPIC here, so if you want to spend time writing paragraphs about something that, not matter how well you base your arguement, someone is always going to end up disagreeing with, then by all means go and start a thread about it.

 

Personally, I think HHH would of been just as big as he is today, albeit not because of his relationship to SMH, but because of his friendship with HBK. I think we would of had (considering HBK could of lasted this long) a long series of Shawn/Hunter epics all through 2000 over the belt, with Rocky coming in after it was done.

 

However, looking back on how HBK was, it is hard not to see him falling prey to Mr. Perfect syndrome here, simply because of his crazy lifestyle and in-ring wrestling style.

 

UYI

[AndrewTS 0]

The "good Christian" HBK character has, from what I've seen:

 

Taken cheap shots at Bret Hart

 

Joined the nWo as a heel

 

Pulled sneak attacks on opponents

 

Accepted tainted wins and even cheated to win

 

Like a sore loser, he cost Jericho the Rumble match

 

Basically, he's acted hardly any different than anyone else.

Not to mention encouraging Jindrak and Cade in their thieving ways.

Oh yeah, I forgot about him making it seem that breaking the 7th commandment is A-OK. Of course, it was Jindrak and Cade, so it was easily forgotten.

 

Personally, I think HHH would of been just as big as he is today, albeit not because of his relationship to SMH, but because of his friendship with HBK. I think we would of had (considering HBK could of lasted this long) a long series of Shawn/Hunter epics all through 2000 over the belt, with Rocky coming in after it was done.

 

Agreed. The Klique has power to this very day to some extent, so Michaels not being taken out of the picture would probably have kept their influence strong.

 

Although that "would have gone to WCW with his friends" is very possible as well. Considering that Michaels was surprisingly not mentioned too much in discussing the big picture of WMXIV, wasn't ever much of a draw as a champ, and three of his friends left, that might very well have happened. I'd always gotten the impression that he was tighter with Hall and Nash than HHH.

Edited January 11, 2004 by AndrewTS

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

I would be okay with(if not exactly a fan of) his Christian gimmick except for the reasons mentioned above. And I'm a Roman Catholic. If he wants to thank God for ever time he can get his leg up for the Sweet Chin Music, that's his thing, but he is still referred to as the Heartbreak Kid, and he still comes out to Sexy Boy, both of which aren't terribly in line with what I was taught in my religon classes. They could stop calling him that, and they could give him differant music if he really wanted to go through with it, they did it for D-Von.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

The "good Christian" HBK character has, from what I've seen:

 

Taken cheap shots at Bret Hart

 

Joined the nWo as a heel

 

Pulled sneak attacks on opponents

 

Accepted tainted wins and even cheated to win

 

Like a sore loser, he cost Jericho the Rumble match

 

Basically, he's acted hardly any different than anyone else.

Not to mention encouraging Jindrak and Cade in their thieving ways.

Oh yeah, I forgot about him making it seem that breaking the 7th commandment is A-OK. Of course, it was Jindrak and Cade, so it was easily forgotten.

 

Personally, I think HHH would of been just as big as he is today, albeit not because of his relationship to SMH, but because of his friendship with HBK. I think we would of had (considering HBK could of lasted this long) a long series of Shawn/Hunter epics all through 2000 over the belt, with Rocky coming in after it was done.

 

Agreed. The Klique has power to this very day to some extent, so Michaels not being taken out of the picture would probably have kept their influence strong.

 

Although that "would have gone to WCW with his friends" is very possible as well. Considering that Michaels was surprisingly not mentioned too much in discussing the big picture of WMXIV, wasn't ever much of a draw as a champ, and three of his friends left, that might very well have happened. I'd always gotten the impression that he was tighter with Hall and Nash than HHH.

Didn't he actually threaten to storm out and go to Atlanta one time when he didn't get his way? I've also read rumours (at the time) that Shawn was photographed in nWo attire and was very unhappy with the way he was being treated in WWF and wanted desperately to join Syxx, Hall and Nash over in Turnerland.

 

Wonder if WCW would of handled him differently from Bret. I think it's safe to say that, with Nash as his best buddy, he'd of been given the preferential treatment he seemingly demanded at all times.

 

UYI

[deancoles 0]

The "good Christian" HBK character has, from what I've seen:

 

Taken cheap shots at Bret Hart

 

Joined the nWo as a heel

 

Pulled sneak attacks on opponents

 

Accepted tainted wins and even cheated to win

 

Like a sore loser, he cost Jericho the Rumble match

 

Basically, he's acted hardly any different than anyone else.

Not to mention encouraging Jindrak and Cade in their thieving ways.

He also blew his nose on the canadian flag.

[Guest SP-1]

If I were writing I'd have likely handled HBK's Christian characteristics differently as well. The more I think about it, the more terrible it's starting to look. I think Shawn started out with good intentions but he's allowed the train to go horribly off the tracks.

 

And he's praying in the entranceway now? I've been haphazardly keeping up so I haven't noticed that. That's awful in this context. Or appears to be at least.

 

I wish he'd just forget all the other crap and just concentrate on presenting a good, moral, strong character with a Christian background. Don't be so overt about it. I think the fan in me was digging seeing a Christian in that position so much that the possibility of ill intent hadn't quite caught up with me until this thread.

 

Stupid pride. Oh well, nobody's perfect and everybody makes mistakes. We're no different.

 

The sad part is that without HBK seeming like a good role model I don't have much of a reason for watching anymore. He was more or less the last of my heroes that was still active.

 

Maybe he'll come around. I'll definitely be praying for him.