Lennox Lewis to retire

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Gomez and Toney get rated high on what they did in lower divisions.

 

Same with RJJ when he was a heavyweight.

 

Right now, Gomez would be #2 in the Cruiserweight ratings based on points, Toney would be #1.

 

Gomez will naturally be ranked high, considering he's 37-0.

 

The one interesting thing in Boxing is the consistant themes of southpaws being held down and the huge amounts of foreign fighters.

 

Gomez is a southpaw, Thomas Damgaard is a southpaw, so is Joe Calzaghe

 

and soon enough, some of the top fighters will be from the former Soviet republics.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Al, if you have the time, go down a bit on the ratings.. they cover even the worst fighters.

 

Butterbean is #141

 

Don Tucker is ranked the lowest, at #992

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

One interesting thing about the Klitschko/Sanders fight, if it indeed happens. We would see the first white undisputed heavyweight champion since 1956, when Marciano vacated the title.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

We would see the first white undisputed heavyweight champion since 1956

 

which would be news for Chris Byrd and John Ruiz..

 

and Ingemar Johansson

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Shit. I completely forgot about Johansson. Make that 1960 then. Chris Byrd is black. John Ruiz has as much claim to having been world heavyweight champion as I do. Lewis beat the linear champion, and unified the titles. There are no other champions from that point forward. For the record, here's the list of legitimate champions from Ali onward........

 

Muhammad Ali

Leon Spinks

Ali again

Larry Holmes

Michael Spinks

Mike Tyson

Buster Douglas

Evander Holyfield

Riddick Bowe

Holyfield

Michael Moorer

George Foreman

Shannon Briggs

Lennox Lewis

Hasim Rahman

Lewis

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

The fact of the matter is that a Vitali Klitschko/Corrie Sanders fight being for "Undisputed" title is a load of horseshit.

 

Here's some heavyweights better than Sanders:

 

Wladimir Klitschko, Chris Byrd (IBF champion), Mike Tyson, James Toney, Juan Carlos Gómez, Joe Mesi, David Tua, John Ruíz (WBA champion), Jameel McCline

 

The only title a Klitschko/Sanders fight would be is the WBO title. (if that). The WBO title is a graveyard, title-wise.

 

When it comes to the linear title. That'll be decided whenever the titles are unified, or if Lewis comes back and loses.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The fact of the matter is that a Vitali Klitschko/Corrie Sanders fight being for "Undisputed" title is a load of horseshit.

 

Here's some heavyweights better than Sanders:

 

Wladimir Klitschko, Chris Byrd (IBF champion), Mike Tyson, James Toney, Juan Carlos Gómez, Joe Mesi, David Tua, John Ruíz (WBA champion), Jameel McCline

 

The only title a Klitschko/Sanders fight would be is the WBO title. (if that). The WBO title is a graveyard, title-wise.

 

When it comes to the linear title. That'll be decided whenever the titles are unified, or if Lewis comes back and loses.

Of those fighters, Toney, Gomez and Mesi have yet to FACE a ranked heavyweight, let alone beat one. Those rankings are extremely flawed. Ruiz is a joke of a fighter. Tyson hasn't fought in a year. Sanders KO'd Wladimir. Tua's coming off an unimpressive draw with Hasim Rahman, and McCline hasn't faced anyone noteworthy since he lost to Wladimir two years ago.

 

Sanders is considered worthy because he KO'd Wladimir, and Wlad was considered the best heavyweight contender in the world at that time.

 

As for the linear title, it has NOTHING to do with the alphabet titles. Forget them. Those organizations are corrupt. There's no way in hell John Ruiz is a champion. It has to do with public opinion. If Vitali wins, there's no doubt. Hopefully he faces Byrd next.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Of those fighters, Toney, Gomez and Mesi have yet to FACE a ranked heavyweight, let alone beat one.

 

and yet.. Corrie Sanders deserves a shot at the Ring Magazine title because he beat Wlad? Has Sanders beaten anybody other than Vlad?

 

Even Ross Purritty beat Wlad. But, you don't see anybody rushing out to give him a title shot.

 

Those rankings are extremely flawed.

 

Do you care to refer me to any boxing rankings that are better?

 

Ruiz is a joke of a fighter.

 

Yet.. he's ranked above Sanders. Not to mention Ruiz beat Rahman, who beat Sanders.

 

Tyson hasn't fought in a year.

 

Tyson wouldn't have too tough of a time with Corrie Sanders either.

 

Oh yeah, Sanders last fought in March 2003. Weeks after Tyson's last fight.

 

Sanders KO'd Wladimir.

 

why don't you match Sanders with Wladimir then?

 

Tua's coming off an unimpressive draw with Hasim Rahman

 

Well.. that fight was last March. And labeled as 'controversial' as well.

 

McCline hasn't faced anyone noteworthy since he lost to Wladimir two years ago.

 

Yet.. he's still above South African Superman, Corrie Sanders.. and that Wlad/McCline fight wasn't even 18 months ago.

 

Sanders is considered worthy because he KO'd Wladimir, and Wlad was considered the best heavyweight contender in the world at that time.

 

Wlad's considered the best contender at this time as well.

 

As for the linear title, it has NOTHING to do with the alphabet titles. Forget them. Those organizations are corrupt.

 

And yet.. the Ring declaring a fight between Vitali Klitschko and Corrie Sanders makes them any more legit than those organizations?

 

This might surprise you. But, overall, the champions of the three main organizations aren't too bad. The WBC comes out on top on how good their champs are, then the WBA and IBF.

 

There's no way in hell John Ruiz is a champion.

 

He is.

 

He won a fight for the interim title.

 

Roy Jones Jr left the heavyweight division.

 

John Ruiz got promoted.

 

I'm sure that Ruiz will lose eventually. Clearing up any problems.

 

It has to do with public opinion. If Vitali wins, there's no doubt.

 

No doubt?

 

because he beat Corrie Sanders?

 

And what if Corrie Sanders wins? is there no doubt there?

 

And what about the WBC's title fight?

 

Hopefully he faces Byrd next.

 

What's stopping him from facing Byrd right now?

 

If anything, holding the WBO title will hurt his shot of getting a shot at the WBA or IBF champions.

 

One interesting thing I noticed..

 

maybe giving Sanders a title fight with Vitali is inspired by the rankings of these organizations. Sanders is #3 in the WBA rankings, #2 in the WBC.

 

Alphabet rankings are meaningless in the long run. I'm sticking with Boxrec's assessment. Sanders = #11 in the world

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

ya know.. when did Corrie Sanders drop the WBO title anyways? I noticed that on a few sources. I would have noticed it before, but ESPN doesn't regard them as a real organization on their rankings.

 

Vitali/Sanders, is it for the WBC title?

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/heavyweight-rankings.htm

 

I'd say that with the explanations, this is one of the better rankings out there

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

and yet.. Corrie Sanders deserves a shot at the Ring Magazine title because he beat Wlad? Has Sanders beaten anybody other than Vlad?

 

Even Ross Purritty beat Wlad. But, you don't see anybody rushing out to give him a title shot.

 

Sanders beat Purrity. He also beat Al Cole, Bobby Czyz, and Bert Cooper.

 

Do you care to refer me to any boxing rankings that are better?

 

Yes. Ring Magazine's rankings have been in existance nearly 80 years, and are the most reliable in the sport. They rank Sanders #3. Also, USA Today publishes monthly rankings. They state they're dropping Lewis and Jones next month, so Sanders is ranked fourth among the rest.

 

Yet.. he's ranked above Sanders. Not to mention Ruiz beat Rahman, who beat Sanders.

 

We'll come back to Ruiz.

 

Tyson wouldn't have too tough of a time with Corrie Sanders either.

 

Oh yeah, Sanders last fought in March 2003. Weeks after Tyson's last fight.

 

True, but Sanders KO'd a ranked fighter. Tyson beat up a journeyman.

 

why don't you match Sanders with Wladimir then?

 

Why should we? Sanders made Wlad his bitch. The fight wasn't anything near close. It was a slaughter.

 

Well.. that fight was last March. And labeled as 'controversial' as well.

 

Controversial because most ringside observers thought Rahman won the fight.

 

Yet.. he's still above South African Superman, Corrie Sanders.. and that Wlad/McCline fight wasn't even 18 months ago.

 

And McCline lost to Wlad, while Sanders beat him. And McCline hasn't fought anyone of note since.

 

Wlad's considered the best contender at this time as well.

 

By YOUR ratings, which are based on records only, and don't take most recent bouts in consideration. Also, because they only use records, they can be distorted by a fighter facing guys with inflated records.

 

And yet.. the Ring declaring a fight between Vitali Klitschko and Corrie Sanders makes them any more legit than those organizations?

 

This might surprise you. But, overall, the champions of the three main organizations aren't too bad. The WBC comes out on top on how good their champs are, then the WBA and IBF.

 

They aren't bad, but they aren't true champions. Besides, looking at the ABC rankings from a few months ago, Lennox Lewis is the WBC champion. Yet he is unranked by the WBA and IBF. You're telling me that the undisputed, linear champion isn't in your top 10? Its idiocy. Besides, the IBF has already been CONVICTED in various scandals regarding ratings and operations, and the WBA and WBC escape because they operate outside the U.S. Ratings are bought and sold. Its a corrupt, disgusting system, and any recognition of their champions only propogates this.

 

He is.

 

He won a fight for the interim title.

 

Roy Jones Jr left the heavyweight division.

 

John Ruiz got promoted.

 

I'm sure that Ruiz will lose eventually. Clearing up any problems.

 

The problem is, Ruiz never beat anyone to become champion in the first place. The WBA stripped Lewis for failing to fight Ruiz, their #1 contender (and co-incidently, promoted by Don King). At that time, the ONLY top 10 fighter Ruiz faced was David Tua, and he was knocked out in 19 seconds. He beat a 40 year old Tony Tucker. Beyond that, Jimmy Thunder is the only guy I have ever HEARD of. And based on that record, he fights Holyfield for the WBA title. Holyfield, co-incidently, had not fought since the Lewis fight, where he LOST a fight for the undisputed championship. And Holyfield beat Ruiz.

 

But practice makes perfect. Holyfield got older, and John Ruiz got a re-match for no conceiveable reason. And Ruiz won. Finally. Then we got a third fight, which was a draw. Most people thought Holyfield had won. So Ruiz couldn't beat a 39 year old Holyfield. But yet he remained WBA "champion." Next we come to Kirk Johnson, who Ruiz beat by disqualification. I guess spurred on by FINALLY beating someone who didn't suck ass, Ruiz tried his hand at 193 lb. Roy Jones. And lost. And it wasn't close.

 

So Ruiz moves on to Hasim Rahman, and for the first time in his freakin' life, beats a decent fighter. And based on that he's once again a "champion." Fuck that. Ruiz has done SHIT in his career.

 

No doubt?

 

because he beat Corrie Sanders?

 

And what if Corrie Sanders wins? is there no doubt there?

 

And what about the WBC's title fight?

 

No doubt, because in the eyes of the public, he's the uncrowned champion. If Sanders wins, it'll be less clear-cut, but he'll have conquered both Klitschkos, making him a worthy champion (and no worse than Leon Spinks or Jim Braddock). As for the WBC (as if that matters) Klitschko and Sanders are ranked 1/2. If they fight, I have no question the WBC will crown the winner.

 

What's stopping him from facing Byrd right now?

 

If anything, holding the WBO title will hurt his shot of getting a shot at the WBA or IBF champions.

 

One interesting thing I noticed..

 

maybe giving Sanders a title fight with Vitali is inspired by the rankings of these organizations. Sanders is #3 in the WBA rankings, #2 in the WBC.

 

Alphabet rankings are meaningless in the long run. I'm sticking with Boxrec's assessment. Sanders = #11 in the world

 

Sanders is the more obvious opponent. As for rankings, check out Ring Magazine. Seriously. They're far and away the best.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

and yet.. Corrie Sanders deserves a shot at the Ring Magazine title because he beat Wlad? Has Sanders beaten anybody other than Vlad?

 

Even Ross Purritty beat Wlad. But, you don't see anybody rushing out to give him a title shot.

 

Sanders beat Purrity. He also beat Al Cole, Bobby Czyz, and Bert Cooper.

 

All four of those guys aren't really anything close to contenders. Cooper/Sanders was almost 10 years ago as well.

 

Do you care to refer me to any boxing rankings that are better?

 

Yes. Ring Magazine's rankings have been in existance nearly 80 years, and are the most reliable in the sport. They rank Sanders #3. Also, USA Today publishes monthly rankings. They state they're dropping Lewis and Jones next month, so Sanders is ranked fourth among the rest.

 

What's the top 5 in the Ring right now? just asking

 

why don't you match Sanders with Wladimir then?

 

Why should we? Sanders made Wlad his bitch. The fight wasn't anything near close. It was a slaughter.

 

Yeah. But Wlad facing Sanders a second time wouldn't be quite the same. Considering the 10 year age difference between the two fighters and all.

 

Wlad's considered the best contender at this time as well.

 

By YOUR ratings, which are based on records only, and don't take most recent bouts in consideration. Also, because they only use records, they can be distorted by a fighter facing guys with inflated records.

 

and yet.. the fighters who compile inflated records aren't the ones going to the top. Weiiiird.

 

Besides, looking at the ABC rankings from a few months ago, Lennox Lewis is the WBC champion.  Yet he is unranked by the WBA and IBF.  You're telling me that the undisputed, linear champion isn't in your top 10?  Its idiocy.

 

The organizations NEVER rank the champions of other organizations. That's pretty much universal

 

Besides, the IBF has already been CONVICTED in various scandals regarding ratings and operations, and the WBA and WBC escape because they operate outside the U.S.  Ratings are bought and sold.  Its a corrupt, disgusting system, and any recognition of their champions only propogates this.

 

Oh yeah.. Sanders is #2 and #3 in those corrupt organizations rankings. There's some selling going on, no doubt.

 

But, when it comes to the linear title. Do you expect anybody else to recongize the Klitschko/Sanders winner as the undisputed champion? Chris Byrd would have reason to dispute that.

 

The problem is, Ruiz never beat anyone to become champion in the first place.  The WBA stripped Lewis for failing to fight Ruiz, their #1 contender (and co-incidently, promoted by Don King).  At that time, the ONLY top 10 fighter Ruiz faced was David Tua, and he was knocked out in 19 seconds.

 

If you remember correctly, Ruiz beat the much older Holyfield. He lost the first fight.

 

"Some may argue how could John Ruiz be ahead of David Tua who defeated him in 19 seconds, simple, that was an eon ago and has little relevance at this point in time." - ESB

 

But practice makes perfect.  Holyfield got older, and John Ruiz got a re-match for no conceiveable reason.  And Ruiz won.

 

There was quite a POV that Ruiz won that first fight, which got him a rematch.

 

Finally.  Then we got a third fight, which was a draw.  Most people thought Holyfield had won.  So Ruiz couldn't beat a 39 year old Holyfield.  But yet he remained WBA "champion."  Next we come to Kirk Johnson, who Ruiz beat by disqualification.  I guess spurred on by FINALLY beating someone who didn't suck ass, Ruiz tried his hand at 193 lb. Roy Jones.  And lost.  And it wasn't close.

 

So Ruiz moves on to Hasim Rahman, and for the first time in his freakin' life, beats a decent fighter.  And based on that he's once again a "champion."  Fuck that.  Ruiz has done SHIT in his career.

 

"If anybody is the pariah of the Heavyweight division it is most certainly John Ruiz. His style is pure anathema to most viewers, more reminiscent of a root canal than entertainment. The 'Quiet Man's strategy is almost anti-boxing as it consists of jab and hold, jab and hold. Since his jab is fairly quick and he is successful at imposing himself on his opponent through a brawling/smothering style there is no reason to think he will change what has largely been very successful for him. Outside of his loss to the supremely talented Roy Jones Jr, Ruiz has not lost any of his last four fights against legitimate top ten Heavyweights. Nobody gave him a chance against Evander Holyfield and he won and draw the last two of their three fights (and one could argue he was robbed in the first fight). He was the underdog against Kirk Johnson and arose the victor. In his most recent fight against former Champion Hasim Rahman he stunk out the arena in terms of aesthetics but yet again won a fight most thought he would lose. This man has consistently been labeled a talentless bum and yet again and again he gets the job done despite his detractors. Though it can be difficult, one must look at John Ruiz objectively and realize he actually has more qualities than most would like to acknowledge. He is clearly durable, tough and willing to do whatever it takes to win. The speed of his jab is underrated and his right hand's power similarly so. The latter weapon rattled Johnson and Rahman a few times and even floored Evander Holyfield. The fact of the matter, though most do not want to admit it, is that John Ruiz is very difficult to defeat and most have no idea what to do to defeat him. Of course some weaknesses do exist as seen against Roy Jones. Ruiz is a terrible fighter when he has to stalk his opponent; against Jones he was reminiscent of a bull against a matador and had little ability to block off the ring. Additionally, Roy was intelligent enough not to stay right in front of Ruiz which most do again and again to their detriment. John Ruiz seems to struggle against fighters who use their angles properly, something Holyfield and Rahman seemed too slow to do and Johnson too inept. Many will proclaim I should be guillotined for placing Ruiz this high but viewed objectively its difficult not too. Like Wladimir he has lost a recent major fight in an embarrassing manner while previously defeating two top ten fighters. Unlike Wladimir Klitschko, Ruiz jumped right back into the mix against another top ten fighter in Hasim Rahman and garnered a victory, for that some degree of respect must be given despite his terribly boring and unpleasant style. As usual emotion wants this man out of the top ten altogether, but objectively he is getting the job done and that, however distasteful, is the bottom line. Some may argue how could John Ruiz be ahead of David Tua who defeated him in 19 seconds, simple, that was an eon ago and has little relevance at this point in time."- ESB

 

And Ruiz became the champion after RJJ left the heavyweight division. And there's a simple way for him to be a champ. That's for somebody to beat him.

 

No doubt, because in the eyes of the public, he's the uncrowned champion.

 

But, he will not be the linear champion if he wins.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

No one will be the linear champion. The best option is to becomepopular champion by acclimation, as Floyd Patterson did. As for Ruiz, I'm not sold. Lets see him fight Byrd, Wladimir, Vitali, Tua again, or Tyson. He beat Johnson. So did Vitali, in more convincing fashion. Besides, I hope we're not arguing in favor of seeing him compete for a championship. He's dull enough.

 

As for Ring, here's their top ten, from the March 2004 issue.....

 

1. Chris Byrd

2. Corrie Sanders

3. Roy Jones

4. Vitali Klitschko

5. James Toney

6. David Tua

7. Hasim Rahman

8. Wladimir Klitschko

9. Fres Oquendo

10. Mike Tyson

 

These rankings were compiled as of November 6, 2003, before Vitali's destruction of Kirk Johnson. They doubtless dropped Jones slightly in that time as well. I think Ring, in recognizing the winner, is just attempting to crown a new champion as painlessly as possible.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

if I recall correctly, Patterson's win made him the champ due to the lack of bodies that would sanction fights.

 

Also, Patterson won an elimination bout with Hurricane Jackson that got him to the fight with Moore.

 

Things were a bit less complicated then. Considering there were fewer legitimate considers in 1956.

 

There may be a popular champ, but that depends on if Boxing can get more attention. Right now, they'd be better off to try and reach out to free TV for a fight or two and to try and build the sport. There's alot of young exciting fighters out there. But, it doesn't look like that'll happen.

 

With Ruiz.. what's the big weakness? that he can't beat RJJ? Alot of people can't beat RJJ.

 

Anyways, with the splinter champs. Ruiz and Byrd. Byrd has a more legitimate argument for why he should have gotten a shot at Lewis.

 

Byrd might want to keep away from the Klitschkos, considering Vitali was beating him and Wlad kicked the shit out of him. And, I did hear Byrd had problems with Oquendo.

 

As for the Ring crowning a champ. We'll see how much weight it carries.

 

When it comes to titles, boxing would be better off to offically designate the WBF/IBA/IBC stuff as like A/AA titles, WBO could be AAA or AAAA.

 

If Wladimir and Vitali held titles, would you insist that they fight each other to crown a linear champ?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

What's this horrific obsession with the ABC titles? They mean absolutely NOTHING in my book. Chris Byrd is not a champion, and John Ruiz is not a champion.

 

When it comes to titles, boxing would be better off to offically designate the WBF/IBA/IBC stuff as like A/AA titles, WBO could be AAA or AAAA.

 

Forget about it. The establishment has proven over the last 25 years that they are not interested in the credibility of boxing. They're in this for money. The independant boxing media are the only ones with credibility. Recognize the Ring champions, and no others. If people stop caring about the ABC organizations, maybe something will change.

 

As for the Ring crowning a champ. We'll see how much weight it carries.

 

They've got ESPN largely on board.

 

If Wladimir and Vitali held titles, would you insist that they fight each other to crown a linear champ?

 

Of course not. Because they wouldn't be champions.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Recognize the Ring champions, and no others. If people stop caring about the ABC organizations, maybe something will change.

 

And what would make the Ring champion more of a champion than Chris Byrd or John Ruiz?

 

Even by the Ring rankings you cite, Chris Byrd is on the top of those rankings. (Unless the Ring just happens to change the rankings to put Vitali and Corrie Sanders 1 and 2, but we'd expect them to not be like a corrupt alphabet organization).

 

It wouldn't surprise me that part of the reason why Corrie Sanders is getting so high in the rankings is due to corrupt organizations. Something that the Ring might be encouraging by trying to "painlessly" give a title out.

 

They've got ESPN largely on board.

 

And the presumably corrupt WBC too.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

All I know is, I'm marking the fuck out for references to Smokin' Bert Cooper.

 

The Gatekeeper~!

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Recognize the Ring champions, and no others. If people stop caring about the ABC organizations, maybe something will change.

 

And what would make the Ring champion more of a champion than Chris Byrd or John Ruiz?

 

Even by the Ring rankings you cite, Chris Byrd is on the top of those rankings. (Unless the Ring just happens to change the rankings to put Vitali and Corrie Sanders 1 and 2, but we'd expect them to not be like a corrupt alphabet organization).

 

It wouldn't surprise me that part of the reason why Corrie Sanders is getting so high in the rankings is due to corrupt organizations. Something that the Ring might be encouraging by trying to "painlessly" give a title out.

 

They've got ESPN largely on board.

 

And the presumably corrupt WBC too.

I believe Vitali is #1 and Sanders is #3. And what makes Ring Magazine more legit is that titles are won and lost in the ring, not because the fighter won't defend against Don King's cronies.