Why is ric flair such a great wrestler?

[Guest gwf0704]

I think Flair was at his best when he was NWA world champion as he had to constantly travel in order to defend his belt.  It was an event in those days when Flair came into a territory whether it was Texas, Florida, Georgia or the Carolinas, even Puerto Rico and Japan.  They would promote him defending his title on the tv shows and what made Flair awesome is he could defend his title against Wahoo McDaniel on one night, David Von Erich the next, Dusty Rhodes on another, Tommy Rich and so on...   Also, he wrestled to their strengths, always selling their signature moves, which included both Fan Favorites and Rulebreakers.  I remember him defending the belt once against Buzz Sawyer in Georgia and then the next week I saw him on World Class Championship Wrestling defending against Terry Gordy.  His best matches were always when he came in as a hated heel but he was cheered when he faced the Rulebreakers such as Austin Idol, Jerry Lawler, Bruiser Brody or Harley Race.  The man's workrate, not just in matches, but in sheer volume of matches in a month is legendary.  

 

Also, the list of 20 greatest wrestlers, while good, is hit and miss as I dont see Harley Race, Tiger Mask, Verne Gagne or Gorgeous George.  But it must be a generation thing.  Interesting list but Eddie Guerrero.  If you had to pick a Guerrero it would have to be his father, Mando, or at least brother Chavo..... IMO

 

Peace!!!

[Guest Loss4Words]

"Also, the list of 20 greatest wrestlers, while good, is hit and miss as I dont see Harley Race, Tiger Mask, Verne Gagne or Gorgeous George.  But it must be a generation thing.  Interesting list but Eddie Guerrero.  If you had to pick a Guerrero it would have to be his father, Mando, or at least brother Chavo..... IMO"

 

Past 20 years, US only ... I don't see any of them in that category.

[Guest gwf0704]

Sorry, my bad, but Tiger Mask and Harley Race were active in the 80's with Race winning the belt from Flair only to lose it at Starrcade!

[Guest KoR Fungus]

Good list.  Good read.

 

I noticed that Dean Malenko isn't on there.  I don't necessarily agree or disagree with that, but I'm just wondering why that is, since most smarks seem to think very highly of him, and I doubt many would put him below Guerrera.

[Guest Austin3164life]

For an example of the greatness of Flair, I think whoever hasn't seen Flair vs. Steamboat should put that on their wish list......

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Good list.  Good read.

 

I noticed that Dean Malenko isn't on there.  I don't necessarily agree or disagree with that, but I'm just wondering why that is, since most smarks seem to think very highly of him, and I doubt many would put him below Guerrera.

Well, there's a good reason he's regarded so highly, and it's because he's one of the most consistantly good workers to ever step in the ring. While charismatically-lacking, his ability in the ring could always more than compinsate. To me, he was the true glue in the WCW Cruiserweight division, but we're probably thinking of different periods of time. Still, his series with Eddy is the talk of legends and the guy has just been an outstanding worker for so long.

[Guest Redhawk]

I think Malenko would make any Top 20 list, except for the fact that he was never a main eventer. Just try to think of any "big-time" matches involving Dean. It's kind of hard. His best match in the WWF was a lower-midcard match against Scotty 2 Hotty, for God's sake. Part of Malenko's non-elevation was being a cruiserweight, part of it was his boring personality. Personality-wise, Malenko is in the same boat as X-Pac and Saturn, in that he needs to be part of a stable to get over. Either that or have a totally over-the-top killer heel to work with (i.e. Jericho in WCW). But based strictly on ring work, Malenko should be up there.

 

About Foley: Although I think he's an idiot sometimes, I at least respect all that he's done in the name of entertaining. But, really, you can make the argument that The Undertaker is just as good, if not better, in the ring. Think pre-biker Taker. Even now in his current heel role, Taker is regaining those old story-telling skills he forgot as a babyface. Case in point: the match with RVD a couple of weeks ago. Foley was a good storyteller, but the guy had to damn near kill himself in order to get over. So something's gotta be missing, right?

 

Plus, Kurt Angle should be on that list, at least at #20 ahead of Juventud. I know he's only been in the business for a few years, but he's pretty damn good.

 

Lastly, for my money, Shawn Michaels is the greatest. Flair may be a great mat wrestler and have the psychology down pat, but Michaels is right up there with him in both senses. Michaels could mat wrestle pretty well, was just as good or better than Flair at selling and psychology. And on top of that, Michaels' offense was yards better than Flair. Just like Foley, Ric's signature spots are mostly of him getting beat up, with the exception of the figure-four. Michaels, on the other hand, had exciting offense, killer selling, and psychology and charisma coming out of his ass. Shawn Michaels is the total package.

[Guest Brian]

I don't even consider Angle near those guys right now. He's probably not even a top twenty or thirty worker in the world currently. He's only really blossomed in the last few months, and the uncertainty of him being able to pace, and fit a story into, longer matches is still there.

 

Foley from the early nineties was king. I remember how revolutionary his indy work was, and that wasn't as good as when he came to WCW.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I think Malenko would make any Top 20 list, except for the fact that he was never a main eventer.

 

About Foley: Although I think he's an idiot sometimes, I at least respect all that he's done in the name of entertaining. But, really, you can make the argument that The Undertaker is just as good, if not better, in the ring. Think pre-biker Taker. Even now in his current heel role, Taker is regaining those old story-telling skills he forgot as a babyface. Case in point: the match with RVD a couple of weeks ago. Foley was a good storyteller, but the guy had to damn near kill himself in order to get over. So something's gotta be missing, right?

 

Plus, Kurt Angle should be on that list, at least at #20 ahead of Juventud. I know he's only been in the business for a few years, but he's pretty damn good.

 

Lastly, for my money, Shawn Michaels is the greatest. Flair may be a great mat wrestler and have the psychology down pat, but Michaels is right up there with him in both senses. Michaels could mat wrestle pretty well, was just as good or better than Flair at selling and psychology. And on top of that, Michaels' offense was yards better than Flair. Just like Foley, Ric's signature spots are mostly of him getting beat up, with the exception of the figure-four. Michaels, on the other hand, had exciting offense, killer selling, and psychology and charisma coming out of his ass. Shawn Michaels is the total package.

1. Dean has never really been a Main Event Guy (Copywrite Sean Waltman) but that's probably because of his size and lack of speaking ability. His wrestling, on the other hand, was top-levle work and got him over by itself. Bobby Eaton was never a main eventer either, and he made Charle's list, didn't he? Malenko was really misused in the WWF, and despite being incredibly good (which the Scotty 2 Hotty match only served to prove to everyone) he was rarely given chances to shine. Had the WWF gone the route of WCW and just given him 20 minutes on PPV every month, the guy would have gotten over easilly.

 

2. Even pre-biker Taker was never anywhere near Foley's levle. Case in point: their series through out '96. It was always blatently obvious that Foley was out-working Taker, since he basically managed to make both of them look like a million bucks almost single-handadly by bumping like a maniac yet still carrying the focus of the match. The bumping wasn't the only part of Foley's character's that got him over, either. He was one of the best interviews in the history of this business, and that, along with the pscyho-mentality that he brought with him to the ring, is what always got Foley over. He defined the idea that a good gymick is nothing compared to a good character.

 

3. Angle hasn't been around nearly long enough to make the list, because his career is uncertain. Yes, he's one of the fastest-learning sensations in the history of the business, but he's also still learning his craft and I think it's still too soon to put him on the list.

 

4. Michaels was just as big on bumping as Flair, Foley, Benoit, Dynamite Kid, and many of the other greats. Flair's offense was perfectly lethal, as he could dissmantal more effinciently than anyone else. He could more than hold his own on offense. The difference between he and Michaels, However, is that Shawn was often unprofesional, self-centered, and almost pedestrian in his matches. The stupidy with-which he handled himself was a huge waste, and it's sad that thing went down that way.

[Guest Loss4Words]

On Harley Race - I'm talking about wrestlers who were consistently good for at least 5 years of the time period we're talking about. Being active and putting out strings of great matches are two different things.

 

On Dean Malenko - I personally find him boring. He's stubborn in the way he works in that he doesn't always adjust to his opponent (see Psicosis, World War 3 of 1996, who is more than capable of having a good-great match). He also has no real high-impact moves, meaning that his transitions never seem to lead anywhere. The crowds are usually dead during most of his matches and he seems lost when he ventures outside his own universe, as Benoit, Guerrero and Misterio seem to be the few guys he can do good stuff with. Most of this is admitting that I'm just not a fan of his style, but I know some are, so more power to them.

 

I wasn't trying to list guys who have sold out arenas or headlined big shows, I was thinking about guys who actually deliver and entertain me as far as ring work ONLY. And you're always going to leave someone great out whenever you do something like this, but that's the whole point in a nutshell. To me, these are the elite, the guys that during most of my time as a wrestling fan, I've been able to count on to deliver great matches. That's what this list was intended to be.

 

If I was making this an international list, guys like Tiger Mask, Dynamite Kid, Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, Toshiaki Kawada, Jushin Liger, Bruiser Brody, Stan Hansen and others would have made the list, but that's why they didn't. I'm looking at the US ONLY. That's all.

[Guest Loss4Words]

"Lastly, for my money, Shawn Michaels is the greatest. Flair may be a great mat wrestler and have the psychology down pat, but Michaels is right up there with him in both senses. Michaels could mat wrestle pretty well, was just as good or better than Flair at selling and psychology. And on top of that, Michaels' offense was yards better than Flair. Just like Foley, Ric's signature spots are mostly of him getting beat up, with the exception of the figure-four. Michaels, on the other hand, had exciting offense, killer selling, and psychology and charisma coming out of his ass. Shawn Michaels is the total package."

 

Based on God-given talent, Shawn should probably be #1. As far as natural ability goes, he's the best I've ever seen. But his matches were laid out in a way that the spotlight was on him all the time and his selling was usually so exaggerated that it made him look better than his opponent. Ditto for his bumping. I can't think of anyone Shawn ever truly made look good save Scott Hall. That doesn't mean he didn't sell for just about everyone and bump for just about everyone, that means that someone would come out of a match with Shawn Michaels actually looking better than they did going in.

 

Had Shawn not been so selfish and actually allowed his opponents to have some spotlight in the match, then yeah, he'd be much, much higher. But as it stands, all I think whenever I watch a Shawn Michaels match is how great Shawn is and I never see his opponent in that light. That's my whole point.

 

Now I'm going to put my last point in bold and maybe it'll start sinking in to at least one person somewhere:

 

WRESTLERS DON'T HAVE PSYCHOLOGY, MATCHES HAVE PSYCHOLOGY! SAYING A WRESTLER HAS GREAT PSYCHOLOGY IS LIKE SAYING A WRESTLER HAS A GREAT FINISH THAT KEPT YOU ON THE EDGE OR YOUR SEAT THE WHOLE TIME. WHEN DISCUSSING PSYCHOLOGY, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ACTUAL MATCH! YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE WRESTLER. A WRESTLER SHOULD BE CREDITED FOR PUTTING FORTH A MATCH WITH GREAT PSYCHOLOGY, BUT WRESTLERS DO NOT HAVE GREAT PSYCHOLOGY. IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN DO TO MAKE THAT MORE CLEAR? ANYTHING?

[Guest gwf0704]

I agree with your take on psychology LOSS 4 WORDS.  Never quite understood how a wrestler would use psychology.  I think they confuse it with heat the wrestler generates with the audience sometimes.  Although Flair was good at getting heat with the fans one of the best IMO was Larry Zbyszko in WWF and NWA Georgia.  But that is another forum I guess.

[Guest TheEnforcer]

Ric's signature spots are mostly of him getting beat up, with the exception of the figure-four.

----------------------------------

 

ROFLMAO!!

 

I don't think I've laughed so hard in a long time!!

[Guest Brian]

I can understnad your point loss, but people like Benoit exercise massive levels of psychology in their matches it's hard not to say Benoit has great psychology. But we'll just comprimise and say he utilizes psychology instead.

[Guest Redhawk]

I also see your point about how wrestlers don't have psychology, but it's just easier and faster to say someone has psychology rather than saying they know how to work psychology into their matches.

 

About Michaels' selling, he made a lot more people besides Scott Hall look good. Shawn could get his opponents' character over as well. For example, look at his matches with The Undertaker at Royal Rumble 1998, Badd Blood, and some other PPV I forgot in 1997. 'Taker was supposed to be an indestructible zombie guy, and Shawn made you think he was really afraid of him and just trying to survive. In his matches with Bret Hart, Mick Foley, Steve Austin, Kevin Nash and British Bulldog, among others, Michaels at least didn't hurt the match, if not made those guys look as good as they can look.