Kurt angle: underapreciated

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

I don't see where all the Kurt Angle hate is coming from in the last while. I'm starting to think that it's simply because Kurt has become entrenched as a main eventer and so now it's cool to hate on him, whereas before it was cool to support him as he "broke through the glass ceiling" or something.

 

1. Angle is gold on the mic. People talk about how "WHAT?" is ruining Angle's interviews, but it's painfully obvious that he structures his interviews to play off the what chants and get the maximum possible reaction. Angle's "HHH's baby" skit on Smackdown was the funniest thing on WWF programming in months.

 

2. Angle draws plenty of heel heat. Angle is probably the most over heel in the WWF right now, and he certainly draws better heat than Jericho. The fans chanting "You Suck" to his entrance was a spontaneous act, it's not like he suggested to them that they do it. The fact is, people like to boo Kurt Angle.

 

3. Angle is still involved in some of the best matches in the WWF, night in and night out. His stuff with Austin and the Rock is always garanteed gold, and he has done more than anyone to get good matches out of guys like Kane. His PPV work is always first class.

 

Kurt Angle is easily the best heel superstar in the WWF today, and is right up there with Austin as being it's top guy. He is even better now than he was in 2000 when he was getting pimped up during his push to the main event, because now he is more comfortable on the mic, and more comfortable controlling the pace of a match.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I think I'll try to take a stab at where it comes from, although I by-no-means feel this way:

 

Angle never really hit his peak as a superstar. He fueded with HHH over Steph, but the fued never blew off and he was given the world title with poor build up. He held the title for a long while but was never actually legitamized as a threat and was pretty much a lame-duck champion. Actually, his title reign was very similar to the one Jericho is getting, although probably even worse in the way he was portrayed.

 

Only after he lost the title did he legitamize himself as a threat, with the entire "psycho Kurt" character where he suddenly became the guy who was obsessed with crippling Rock with the most feared submission in the company and generally a monster. With this new character, however, he was demoted to the mid-card with Chris Benoit.

 

Then, he was suddenly turned back into the "dorky" Olympic Hero lacky of Austin's, which made for some hilarious TV, but didn't do much to make the fans take Kurt seriously. However, since there was simply no one else to headline the promotion, Angle was forced to turn face (killing most of the appeal of his dorky character) against Austin and despite finally getting pushed as THE man, he flopped and was then turned heel again and de-pushed.

 

So here he is now, and the company probably thinks that if they give him a solid shot again he's just going to flop like he did before, even though it probably was never Kurt's fault when his championship runs failed. Therefor, most Angle-haters get the idea that he's some kind of Luger-type "choker" who can never deliver when given the ultimate opportunity. Like I said, none of it is really his fault and it's sad that more people don't appreciate him for what he is: one of the best wrestlers in the world today, and (if things keep up) of all time.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

To Much Too soon.

[Guest Tony149]

I agree with bps21, but probably in a different way. Kurt's a great athlete, no doubt...but he got "too much, too soon". Not in that "Rocky Mavia" bad way either. Look at the facts. Angle has won every major singles WWF & WCW titles. All he has to do is win the tag titles and he's won almost every title. I doubt he'll go in a crusierweight division or win the Women's title, unless he has a sex change. What's left for him to do? He's pretty much done it all.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Actually that is exactly what I meant.

[Guest Tony149]

Oops, I didn't know that. I thought you and Anglesault have this "I love Kurt, I hate Kurt" thing going.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I don't hate Kurt Angle.

[Guest Tony149]

You do hate/dislike HHH, right?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

That is correct.

 

I don't hate Angle...I just tell the truth about him.

 

HHH I Hate.

[Guest Brian]

I don't hate Kurt, but I just don't think he's this "miracle" worker that everyone thinks he is.

[Guest Banky]

I don't mind Angle either...I just resent him being shoved down my throat my a certain poster

 

But I think that Jericho has a much bigger upside than Angle.  Angle's interviews still are pretty one-dimensional....and he was never able to get over as a face.  Jericho has been over as both a face and a heel.  This is cliched, but I see a lot of Shawn Michaels circa 95 in Chris Jericho.  Cocky, charismatic, a little goofy, but still putting on good quality matches.  

 

I also think that Jericho's title reign has been more succesful than Angle's.  Angle never really beat anyone, he beat Rock for the title...and won very sketchy against the Undertaker.  Sketchy in that he got beaten to high hell and only won via a cheap switcheroo.  Jericho has been Rocky (2X), and Austin once.  Oh, and Austin twice after no Way out

[Guest Anglesault]

I think part of Angle's upside is that he ususally has damned awesome matches. And because he isn't three inches taller than he should be, he has less screw ups and has never really destroyed a match.

[Guest The Masked Yodeler]

I love Angle, but he's over exposed.  Like bps21 said, he's done everything, so what's next.  I say, have Benoit come back after WM18 and start up a feud with Angle.  In the blow off, at King of the Ring or Judgement Day, Angle does a stretcher job after getting killed by the crossface.  While he's "injured" have him go to Japan.  Inoki would give his left testicle for an Olympic gold medalist, who can also work.  While he's over there, the WWF can show clips of Angle's success in Japan to build up his return.  I'm sure Inoki would put the IWGP title on Angle, and the WWF could hype that up.  Plus working a different style, as well as working with the some of the great Japanese workers, would give Angle some seasoning, and should improve his selling, which is most glaring weak spot.  Whenever Angle's Japan tour is over, he can make his big return at the Rumble or something, and would be fresh as a face or a heel, and, if pushed right, winning the IWGP title could help legitimize Angle as a worldwide success.

[Guest Anglesault]

By "Japan Tour" you mean a two week paid vacation, right?

[Guest Banky]

Well Angle's KOTR match with Shane didn't really go "smoothly"

 

He busted Hardcore Holly's arm with a botched moonsault

 

And how do you come up with the logic that Angle is 3 inches shorter than he should be? Thats the most retarded thing I've ever heard

 

Angle I'd say isn't even in the top 5 in mic work.  Sure, occasionally he is funny, but its all the same...all the time.

 

Top 5 Mic Workers

1. Rock - I hate him, but he is good

2. Austin - The What thing sucks, but when he is on his game, no one is better

3. Jericho - He just rules

4. Triple H - He can get a match or stipulations or the singinificance of matches over better than anyone.  His heel promos during the McMahon-Helmsley Regime ruled

5. Christian - Doesn't get the mic as much as before, but when he does its gold.  Heck, Angle stole the dorky shtick from E&C

 

Angle had 2 good matches with Austin this summer.  Everything else has been rather un-spectacular.  He couldn't even tear the house down with Benoit.  Benoit has had ***** quality matches with Triple H, Austin, Rocky, and Jericho....something Angle couldn't do.

 

Angle has gotten everything he deserves.  A good push, a few titles, but to say he is un-appreciated is nonsense.  He has been the focal point of WWF storylines for a year and a half now, its time to take a step back and let others have a chance.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Remove HHH from that list and add Flair.

[Guest Anglesault]

Well Angle's KOTR match with Shane didn't really go "smoothly"

 

He busted Hardcore Holly's arm with a botched moonsault

Would you like me to go over Jericho's list?

 

He gave Chyna a black eye when he lost his balance on his fucking three inch lifts.

 

He broke Stevie Richard's foot when he sloppily threw him out of the ring.

 

He broke Chris Benoit's nose and gave him a black eye in one match.

 

He gave X-Pac some unspecifed neck/back injury by throwing him back first into a cage.

 

He Fucked Eddy's Hamstring when he flung him leg first into the bottom rope.

[Guest The Masked Yodeler]

Jesus Gigalo Christ, is it so hard to like both Angle and Jericho?  Both of them have missed spots and hurt people.  Hell, every wrestler in the WWF hurts someone sometimes, they wrestle a very physical style, and that's why the Ross Report is a laundry list of injuries.  Even Austin hurt the Undertaker once.  He almost cut UT's ear off with his knee braces when he did a kneedrop.  And Jericho hasn't hurt anyone/missed a major spot in a long time, anyway.

 

Both Jericho and Angle are great workers, with great mic skills and great charisma.  WHEN WILL THIS FUCKING STUPID WAR DIE!  Angle's my favorite wrestler, but so many of his fans are so damn defensive of him, and act like they have to hate Jericho and RVD because they aren't Angle.

[Guest Lil Naitch]

I liked the Angle/JApan tour idea. good way to get some more seasoning. And I like Angle, because he is one of the best wrestleres on the roster right now.

[Guest Tony149]

In looks like the Angle/RVD feud has been dropped in favor of the new, fresh, Angle/Jericho feud. Both guys are entertaining in their own ways.

[Guest Army Eye]

 Angle's interviews still are pretty one-dimensional....and he was never able to get over as a face.

I don't know if I'd say THAT.. he was getting huge pops for a little while after Austin joined the Alliance.  It didn't last though, whether it was Kurt, or the writers fault or what, his character got changed drastically and it killed his heat

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

I didn't mean to imply that I dislike Chris Jericho in my original post, I think he's the number 2 heel right now. I just happen to think Angle is a lot better.

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

I tend to think that Angle is the WWF's #1 heel over the last year, even though he had his stints as a face.  I think Id rather see Angle in the main event at Wrestlemania than HHH, but thats just me and we know thats not going to happen. The main problem with Angle is that the writers dont seem to have a concrete stance on his character (although that seems to be ironing out as of late).

[Guest bsrizpac]

The fact that people are comparing Jericho to Angle is pathetic. Jericho is not even in the same league as Angle.

 

Angle is a REAL wrestler. The moves he uses in his match are 1 BILLION times better applied, more realistic and just damn cooler than anything Jericho does. On the mic Angle is great, almost always funny and gold. Angle is the man. I challenge you to find the last bad Angle match there was.

[Guest Anglesault]

I think it's going to be against Test, who Kurt dragged kicking and screaming to **.

[Guest AM The Kid]

I like them both, Jericho a tad bit more but not by much. The way I rank them:

 

 

Angle

 

Moves: Well, he stole half his repitoire from Benoit. He uses the same type of method Bret Hart used(same moves for 3/5 matches). Angle uses the moves he has well, and makes them look real. His Ankle Lock is pretty much top notch, so is the Angle Slam.

 

7/10

 

Charisma: This guy drips cockiness. He just has an air about him that makes you think he's an asshole. Great charisma.

 

9/10

 

Crowd: The crowd hates this guy, "You Suck...You Suck" chants during the entrance prove that. The non-stop "What?!" during his interviews show that the fans pay attention. He works along with the crowd too. Sometimes they get a little bored with his matches though because he doesn't bring much new to the table.

 

7/10

 

Mic: He's pretty good, as I said he can get the fans against him. He's very funny on the mic and works through the crowd screaming "WHAT?!" at him every two seconds. His gorilla/triple H impression was pretty good too.

 

8/10

 

Overall: About 8/10 overall

 

Jericho

 

Moves: He uses alot of different moves, and different styles from brawling and power to speed and submission. Sometimes gets to carried away and stands there thinking of what to do for a few seconds. Jericho is making the Walls Of Jericho look more badass everyday, but it still doesn't look right. Some of his moves shouldn't work on bigger guys. Sometimes doesn't look realistic.

 

7/10

 

Charisma: Another very charasmatic guy. His facial expressions are top-notch. He really is the next Ric Flair in terms of charisma.

 

9.5/10

 

Crowd: They crowd used to love him, now they cannot stand the guy. He's always had a talent of getting the crowd either laughing or swamping the ring yelling obsenities. Back when he was a face he had them yelling along with his Neeeevvvverrrrr....e...e....EEEEVVVVVEEEERRRR catchphrase and everything he said. Got boring after repitition.

 

8/10

 

Mic: He even gets us smarks marking out a few times becuase of what he says and how he says it. His promos with Ric Flair and Stephanie Mcmahon have been great. He really seems to work hard at his promos, from facial expressions to the expression in his voice. Is a great heel on the mic, not so good as a face.

 

8/10

 

Overall: 8.5/10

 

 

THATS why I like Jericho more...my oppinion only of course.

[Guest JerryDrake]

"Well Angle's KOTR match with Shane didn't really go "smoothly""

 

Yes, but you got to take in mind, Shane broke Angles tailbone during in that match.

 

"5. Christian - Doesn't get the mic as much as before, but when he does its gold.  Heck, Angle stole the dorky shtick from E&C"

 

Lie, Angle was using the dorky thing before E&C were even heel.

 

"Angle had 2 good matches with Austin this summer.  Everything else has been rather un-spectacular.  He couldn't even tear the house down with Benoit.  Benoit has had ***** quality matches with Triple H, Austin, Rocky, and Jericho....something Angle couldn't do."

 

Thats your opinion, and i respect it, but i thought Angle had amazing matches with Benoit, better then Benoits matches with HHH, and Rocky, and some of his matches with Y2J. I rated both of these matches at WM and Judgment Day at ****1/2, and the backlash one at ****.

 

They way i see it is, if you dont him? Good for you, its your opinion, I dont think Benoit is the greatest, and Angle is one of the best wrestlers overall in the WWF. If you dissagree, fine its your opinon.

[Guest Brooding Genius]

>>He gave Chyna a black eye when he lost his balance on his fucking three inch lifts.

 

Most of us would consider that a positive.

 

>>He broke Stevie Richard's foot when he sloppily threw him out of the ring.

 

Missed this... I can't comment.  Anyone care to chime in?

 

>>He broke Chris Benoit's nose and gave him a black eye in one match.

 

Frankly, those two could stab each other with hunting knives in a match and I think they'd still be pals later.

 

>>He gave X-Pac some unspecifed neck/back injury by throwing him back first into a cage.

 

"Unspecified injury" sounds sketchy.  If you're talking about the spot where Jericho powerbombed Waltman from the top rope during the No Mercy cage match, that's from Waltman's neck being about as sturdy as Jello.

 

>>He Fucked Eddy's Hamstring when he flung him leg first into the bottom rope.

 

That was a back body drop which Eddy vaulted much too far on.  You can't exactly control where a guy lands when he's in the air, right?

 

----------------------------------------

 

Hey, I like both guys.  But I hate fanboys.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I think Angle needs more to his "1 demension" character.  He is a great heel but when forced to play the serious heel, he looks akward and out of place.  His best mic work is when he is the funny heel (see his Smackdwon Promo with the HHH Monkey).  

 

As far as in ring ability goes, Angle has the talent and the basic move set to achieve.  He needs to add stuff such as how to build a match properly (which not many WWF wrestlers know) and add some moves to his kinda of repetitve move set.  His basic moves are a good set but when he starts repeating because he runs out, it shows no depth.  But this isn't a major concern yet because if a guy like HHH who has zero moves yet can still be pushed to the heavens, a guy with Angle's move set will flourish.

 

My main problem with Angle is that without someone to carry him like Austin or Benoit, the match won't develop properly.  When Angle is in with HHH or Rock or even Jericho, things don't go as smoothly.

 

I think that if Angle had been trained by someone other than the WWF Philosophy, he would be much better off.  All you need to see that is Austin and Benoit, both trained in very different enviornments, yet so good that they can adjust to anything.

 

Tim

[Guest Anglesault]

Most of us would consider that a positive

 

I say the same about Bob Holly's arm.

 

Missed this... I can't comment.  Anyone care to chime in?

 

Stevie was dressed as Elvis, serenading Chyna.

 

Frankly, those two could stab each other with hunting knives in a match and I think they'd still be pals later.

 

Still happened.

 

"Unspecified injury" sounds sketchy.  If you're talking about the spot where Jericho powerbombed Waltman from the top rope during the No Mercy cage match, that's from Waltman's neck being about as sturdy as Jello.

 

Which would cause me to be more careful.

 

 

 

That was a back body drop which Eddy vaulted much too far on.  You can't exactly control where a guy lands when he's in the air, right?

 

Same thing I say about Shane at King of the Ring.