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Guest Hogan Made Wrestling

Kurt angle: underapreciated

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Guest The Masked Yodeler

I really think that a 6-8 month tour of Japan would do Angle wonders.  He has the potential to be the best over-all wrestler ever, right up there with Flair, Austin, and Thesz.

 

If the WWF won't send Angle to Japan, I really think that putting him in the Flair side of the split and letting Flair and Anderson take him to school would give him that little something extra.

 

Either way, I think that Angle's long fueds and numerous matches with Austin and Benoit have made him a much better wrestler than he was a year ago.  Wrestling wrestlers better than you can make you a much better wrestler, that is if your willing to learn, like Angle.

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Guest The Masked Yodeler

Wrestling.

 

If Angle went with New Japan/NOAH, he'd get to wrestle Misawa, if he went with All Japan, he'd get to wrestle Kawada and Muto.  Wrestling any of those guys would make him a better wrestler, just like wrestling Austin and Benoit made him a better wrestler.

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Guest Anglesault

My Dish doesn't get Japanese wrestling! Can't we send Bob Holly? Besides, Japan wouldn't appreciate him. He isn't as good as their stars, so the fans will piss on him.

 

And isn't Misawa paralyzed?

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Guest Kahran Ramsus

Angle is already the number 3 wrestler in the WWF.  Why would he need to improve?

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Guest Brian

"My Dish doesn't get Japanese wrestling! Can't we send Bob Holly? Besides, Japan wouldn't appreciate him. He isn't as good as their stars, so the fans will piss on him."

 

They'd love him. He'd be the great gaijin, Olympic gold medalist. Inoki would piss his pants for Angle. Look what he did with Ogawa. Of course, Angle would then have to brin the goods, and I doubt he's a strong enough wrestler to do well there. Of course, a worked shoot environment like New Japan would allow him to adapt quickly. They'll only piss on him if he doesn't live up to the hype, and that's a longshot on it's own.

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Guest bsrizpac

Angle IS a great wrestler. He WRESTLES. Something jericho doesn't.

 

I appreciate the submission wrestling style, NOT the magical "psychology" Jim Cornette/Dooley/SK style that everyone else does. In this style, Angle is top notch. I also think this style is more realistic and resembles and actual fight/wrestling match/submission wrestling more closely.

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Guest The Masked Yodeler

Angle would do great in Japan, even Meltzer said so.  (I asked him once on Wrestling Observer Live).  And Angle's a million times better than Scott Norton, and Norton's was a frickin' IWGP champion.  I don't think we'd have to worry about Angle getting in over his head in Japan.

 

Oh, and Anglesault, it was Kobashi that was crippled, not Misawa.  But Kobashi is coming back anyway, despite protests from his doctors.

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Guest InigoMontoya
Angle would do great in Japan, even Meltzer said so.

 

I was just wondering what the release date for Meltzer's version of the bible is.

Masked Yodeller has to be my favourite poster, but I'm sure Meltzer makes mistakes or something. Get off his dick and think for yourself. You probably came to the conclusion that he would do well all by yourself, but telling us that "Meltzer said so" doesn't give us any more reason to accept the suggestion.

I'm sure there are a lot of guys in the "send Kurt to Japan" band-wagon now anyway.

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Guest the pinjockey

<He gave Chyna a black eye when he lost his balance on his fucking three inch lifts.>

 

Okay he threw a stiff punch

 

<He broke Stevie Richard's foot when he sloppily threw him out of the ring.>

 

Since when does the person throwing someone out of the ring control how they land.

 

<He broke Chris Benoit's nose and gave him a black eye in one match.>

 

I assume this is the match from Backlash that ended in DQ where Jericho held up the IC title and Benoit did a swandive headbutt onto it.  So I guess it is Jericho's fault that Benoit's face landed on it.

 

<He gave X-Pac some unspecifed neck/back injury by throwing him back first into a cage.>

 

Wow, he backbody dropped someone into a cage, that move has never been done before.  That was just one of those things that happens.  No one's fault.

 

<He Fucked Eddy's Hamstring when he flung him leg first into the bottom rope.>

 

Someone already covered this one.  Guerrero launched himself off the backbody drop.  So once again Jericho is blamed for someone else hurting themselves.

 

So for the final tally Chris Jericho had a stiff punch that gave Chyna a black eye.  Kurt Angle broke someone's arm.  For someone accused of being sloppy, someone seems to take better care of their opponents then one of the "best" wrestlers in the world.  Hmmm.

 

By the way.  I like Kurt Angle but after seeing him in the ME scene for the last eight months I think it is time for a little break from him.

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Guest Sting Fanatic

And Owen Hart damn near ended Steve Austin's career with a botched Tombstone.

 

The point is, injuries do happen.  It is wrestling, not ballet (as JR said once, no?).  I don't think you can put down one and praise the other in that department.  Either put 'em both down or praise them both.  Don't hang on the fence.

 

As for Angle and his under-appreciation...I don't think it is exactly that.  It is more or less the fact that Angle and his angle's have not been executed properly.  Somebody brought up the HHH feud, that is one that wasn't finished.  His feud with Austin and subsequent heel turn was more like a career in limbo than a career on the rise.

 

A tour of Japan wouldn't hurt Angle, no.  But, it wouldn't hurt HHH...or Austin...or The Rock...or Undertaker...or any other of the WWF's top names who really have nothing NEW to offer at this current time.  The WWF's biggest problem is that once they elevate somebody to the ME level, they continually go after the WWF Title.  That causes for a clusterf*ck.  At some point, people have to be demoted out of WWF Title contention and be given a feud elsewhere on the card.

 

But, not knowing what to do with Angle is only a fraction of the WWF's structure problems.  Do I need to even dare speak of the horrible HHH face run?  The Rock and Undertaker basically having a shitty feud?  Austin just being the "over guy" who bounces in and out of the WWF Title scene as he pleases?  Jericho's soon-to-be slaughtered WWF Title run by the nWo?

 

Ah well, can't win 'em all can we?

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Guest Shesgotcrabs

Angle is a great wrestler, with a lot of talent in the ring. This is undeniable. He has good mic skills with charisma.

 

During the invasion angle, kurt was the God of the WWF, he got good pops and he put on good matches. However it is true that after he became champion he died. I don't know why but he just seemed to be lacking. At this time, i'm not positive but wasn't both the Rock and HHH out at this stage. This means he can only fued with Austin and leaves his pool of wrestlers to challenge a little shallow.

 

To the guy who listed the injuries that Jericho has caused yes they are true but also he has not done them in a while. But also look at when he has nearly hurt himself. At a pay per view last year he attempted a lionsault and ended jumping of one foot and nearly landing on his head. Also around the same time, maybe the same match he climbed the ropes then preceeded to fall off them.

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Guest Big Poppa Popick

Allright, now you darn Angle marks are coming after my boy Jericho... It's time for some smack to be laid down...

 

Assertion #1 - Angle is the #1 heel

And yet he neither holds the WWF Belt or is involved in the Main Event matchup.  For No Way Out, Angle is JTTH, Jobber To The Hunter

Sorry, no dice there.

 

Assertion #2 Angle is a better wrestler.

http://www.chrisjericho.com/championship.htm

 

There ya go. simple enough, more experience, more time, more to show for it.  Don't believe, then read it.

 

Assertion #4 Angle is better on the mike

 

Simple then.  Who is using someone else's gimmick to help them garner a crowd reaction?

Angle.

Who isn't Jericho

 

Who get's booed more...Jericho

 

Simple, It's trendy and easy to chant.  It's moreso difficult to get people to outright boo you

 

Had enough, bring it junior!

 

*An Unabashed Jericho Mark*

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Guest Brian

"I appreciate the submission wrestling style, NOT the magical "psychology" Jim Cornette/Dooley/SK style that everyone else does. In this style, Angle is top notch. I also think this style is more realistic and resembles and actual fight/wrestling match/submission wrestling more closely."

 

Angle doesn't wrestle the submission style. He doesn't take it to the mat. He just resembles the WWF style right now. He's never been a submission artist except when he fought Benoit. Plain and simple, Angle been WWF except for during the beginning of his tenure when he did it to piss off the fans and during the Benoit/Angle feud.

 

Anyone in the WWF oculd benefit from working a stint with a Japanese company, including Benoit.

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Guest The Masked Yodeler

Benoit and Austin are as good as they are ever going to get, that is, perfect.  They are the two best wrestlers in the WWF, bar none.  Angle, Jericho, Rock, etc. all pale in comparison to Austin and Benoit.  Austin and Benoit can wrestle multiple styles, have great psychology, and can tell a story in the ring.

 

And on InigoMontoya's comments on Meltzer: Meltzer watches more wrestling than just about anyone, save maybe the DVDVR Playboys, so he's a good judge of a worker's quality.  I don't follow Meltzer or Keith blindly, I just recognize that they have greater knowledge of wrestling than I do, because they watch more wrestling.  Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I disagree with them, but they still have more wrestling expertise than me.

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Guest Flair5000

I love Angle and Jericho, so don't really see the need for these arguements. And what you don't know is that Angle actually broke Bob Holly's arm DELIBERATELY, in protest at being made to work with such a talentless slug. :)

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Guest dreamer420

Kurt Angle is destined to become the next Ric Flair IMO.  The quality of matches Angle has are almost all **** so give him a few years and he'll be as good as Flair I bet.

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Guest mastermind

Okay, I've read the whole thread and I have some input. Kurt Angle IS A WRESTLER, but he isn't the top professional wrestler. As someone said the two top wrestlers in the wwf are Steve Austin(countless classics with Bret Hart, Foley, Taker*okay one match*, Rock, and Trips) and Chris Benoit(against Rock, Trips upon his wwf debut, Jericho ladder match). Yeah, sure Angle had great matches with Austin, but so did Benoit last year. Hell, UT's last great match was against Austin(SummerSlam '98). I want to see Angle actually CARRY someone first before proclaiming him to be the next Flair or whatever. Bad booking is no excuse because explain Bret Hart in the mid 1990's wwf.

 

For all those who think Angle is so great I think his test will come against Triple H at the ppv. Will he be able to carry a returning Triple H? Remember Triple H will have to work a 20 minute ppv match and not a short tv match. If he can't carry Triple H(which I think he won't it will show he still has loads to prove). When a person can carry Kevin Nash or Hulk Hogan to a decent match(which Bret Hart did) you can say the person is great and underappreciated.

 

Can someone tell me what signature match Kurt Angle has that would put him in the category of Austin or Benoit? I can't think of any. Just the thought that Angle should go to Japan for seasoning says it all. I don't know maybe the "you suck" chants are like X-Pac if it's not provoked. Meaning the fans just think he sucks personally. I like Angle, but I think the net OVER-RATES the guy and the booking has actually made some over-rate him.

 

Yeah, sometimes the booking was bad, but it still doesn't take away the fact the he went on a winning streak upon his arrival and getting it ended with controversy with Tazz possibly "choking" him, wore the Euro title, wore the Euro and I-C title at the same time and lost both without ever getting pinned, he possibly boned Trips' wife in storylines, he defeated Rock for the wwf world title within a year of being in the wwf, he won the KOR, he saves the wwf from extinction, and he was given vintage Austin skits.

 

He's underappreciated?

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Guest JerryDrake

Angle carried HHH, Kane, and Undertaker.

 

And dont give me that HHH is a great wrestler, he is ok, and great when carried.

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Guest Brian

Angle carried Triple H? When Triple H was on his hot streak, bumping like hell, working hard, and pulling out new moves and basically controlling the flow of most of his matches (as people seem to think, especially if they believe he carried Rock). Even then, I think it's a case of Angle meshing well with a worker of good presence, like Benoit, Rock or Austin. And Benoit and Austin are such great workers, people can probably make the case that they were carrying Angle, especially since Angle did a horrible job in his Benoit series (stalling?).

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Guest Hogan Made Wrestling

I don't think anyone really carries anyone else in the current WWF, it takes two guys to have a great match, and you can tell the ones who don't  contribute to a match from the ones who do very easily. Billy Gunn, for instance, has his matches top out in the **-**1/2 star range, and it doesn't matter if it's against Benoit, The Rock, HHH, or whoever, no one can get him above that level.

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Guest Brian

Sure it takes two to work a match, but that doesn't mean one person isn't carrying the selling, pacing, audibles, or work of the match.

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Guest The Masked Yodeler

Angle has carried Kane twice. But they weren't exactly **** matches.  But he was able to drag a better than usual match out of Kane.  And all of Kurt's best matches have been against Austin, who is one of the best wrestlers alive.  I haven't seen all of Kurt's matches with Benoit, but excepting the WM18 one (which was too short), they seemed marred by overbooking and un-necessary gimmick stips.  Angle has all the tools to be one of the best ever, but he's not even the best in the WWF right now.  Austin and Benoit are ahead of him, and he's slightly better than Jericho, but Jericho has the edge in selling and telling a story.  Angle is a wrestling prodigy, but he doesn't have the experience that Austin, Benoit, and Jericho have.  I still think 6-8 months in NJPW or AJPW would do him wonders.

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Guest Kahran Ramsus

Angle is not as good as Austin & Benoit, but with the NWO coming in I would take anybody who can work a good match.  Angle can go to Japan after the WWF has a stronger roster and Benoit comes back.

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Guest Silvpak

Kurt Angle, underappreciated?  Why, just because he's quite clearly the best all around worker in North America and easily in the top five in the world?

 

Look:  I've been a fan for two decades...the ONLY person that comes close to Angle as a complete competitor is Flair, and Angle is a FAR superior athlete.  Put him in the ring with a poor-average worker like UT or Kane and he DRAGS a good match out of them.  Put him in the ring with a better than average talent (ie: Benoit, SCSA) and he puts on consistent ****+ matches.  He's a FANTASTIC worker, close enough to Benoit that it's a hard call, AND he's total gold on the mic.  The WWF fucked Angle up for a while by turning him face (and, if you think about it, logically Angle, being a heel after single-handedly saving the WWF from "destruction" at the hands of turncoat Stone Cold, makes no sense whatsoever), but he's still pushed through a month of apathy to regain his spot as the top heel in the company.  He is REVILED the way Flair was at his height.  Do you see what I'm saying?  Angle compares FAVORABLY with the finest all-around wrestler in North American history!  Angle is AWESOME.  Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome.

 

Underappreciated?  Not by this guy.  As I don't really watch too much Japan, Angle's the best in the world.  Period.

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Guest Brian

Angle hasn't had a ofur star match in the WWF yet. And watchable matches don't equate to good. Like I said, he meshes well and it makes it easier to watch the match. But best worker in the world? There are at least a half dozen workers on the indy scene alone who rival Angle's ability (not potential) and Austin and Benoit alone are head and shoulders above him. Jericho currently is at least as good as Angle. And he's not even that adept at as a performer. I still don't see what all the fuss is about. I see the potential, but the results aren't there.

 

<Disclaimer: I have given one WWF match in 2001 **** to clarify ratings)

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Guest bsrizpac

Uh, insanity? Is that your problem? Angle is GOLD. He is the MAN in the ring.

 

Often times he'll RANDOMLY pull out REAL wrestling moves and work them into his matches. That makes it more watchable for me. While most smarks think that the Walls of Jericho is a great submission move, i'll take his brilliant transitions into juji gatame any day. Angle is THE MAN.

 

His match v. Benoit was GOLD. He dragged an EXCELLENT match out of shane with a broken tailbone. He actually made TEST have a watchable match. Fucking Test for God's sake.

Allright, now you darn Angle marks are coming after my boy Jericho... It's time for some smack to be laid down...

 

Assertion #1 - Angle is the #1 heel

 

No one gives a shit if he is or isn't. Irrelevant. He COULD be the Number 1 heel if they would push him correctly (witness Booker T).

 

Assertion #2 Angle is a better wrestler.

http://www.chrisjericho.com/championship.htm

 

There ya go. simple enough, more experience, more time, more to show for it.  Don't believe, then read it.

 

 

That's idiotic. In a shoot wrestling match Angle would expose Jericho as the joke he is. He could tap him out, pin him, take him down, suplex him, basically do anything he wants to him at WILL. The gold medal thing is a gimmick but it does demonstrate HUGE credentials. Now, to translate his pro-wrestling matches over: I still think he's much better. He is incredibly athletic, doesn't look out of his element (Jericho on lifts) and uses realistic submissions. His moonsault is 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times better than Jericho's etc. etc. etc.

 

Assertion #4 Angle is better on the mike

 

Simple then.  Who is using someone else's gimmick to help them garner a crowd reaction?

Angle.

Who isn't Jericho

 

 

He was not before. He's just taking brilliant advantage of a situation. You cannot fault someone for cheap heat when you are a Jericho fan.

 

Who get's booed more...Jericho

 

Wrong. Who BORES more: Jericho.

 

Simple, It's trendy and easy to chant.  It's moreso difficult to get people to outright boo you

 

I agree. However, ask anyone who is not a fan of pro-wrestling to watch it. Angle is easily accesable on the mic. This isn't Shakespeare, it's rasslin. Angle is funny as hell.

 

Had enough, bring it junior!

 

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Lame. Seek therapy.

 

*An Unabashed Jericho Mark*

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Guest J*ingus

Okay, a few points:

 

1. Angle is FAR less experienced than everyone he's being compared to.  Austin, Rock, HHH, Benoit, and Jericho have all been in this business two, three, or even four times as long as Angle has been.  Given a few more years, I think Angle could be the best wrestler in the world.  

 

2. Angle has been in some damn good matches with Benoit, and some damn GREAT ones with Austin.  Despite arguments to the contrary, not everyone can do that; look at Rikishi for example, who feuded with both guys.  

 

3. Anyone who whines about Angle being "underpushed" or "misused",  I've got a great big "WHAT?" for ya.  Within his FIRST YEAR as a professional wrestler, he embarked on a months-long undefeated streak, was the Eurocontinental champion, won the King of the Ring, and became WWF World Champion.  The only other guy in pro wrestling history to have been given that big of a push right away was Paul Wight, and we've all seen what became of that.  

 

4. What good would a trip to Japan do him?  He already knows how to shoot wrestle, and how to work WWF style.  That's all he needs with his current employer.  He already works with some of the best pro wrestlers in the world.  He'd have no use for any puro-style wrestling in the WWF.  Or to put more simply, when's the last time you saw a Dragon Suplex or top-rope Tombstone in the WWF, despite the presence of several guys who could do it?  

 

In short, Angle is very good now.  Not the best, but very good.  But he'll get even better in the future.

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Guest J*ingus

Okay, a few points:

 

1. Angle is FAR less experienced than everyone he's being compared to.  Austin, Rock, HHH, Benoit, and Jericho have all been in this business two, three, or even four times as long as Angle has been.  Given a few more years, I think Angle could be the best wrestler in the world.  

 

2. Angle has been in some damn good matches with Benoit, and some damn GREAT ones with Austin.  Despite arguments to the contrary, not everyone can do that; look at Rikishi for example, who feuded with both guys.  

 

3. Anyone who whines about Angle being "underpushed" or "misused",  I've got a great big "WHAT?" for ya.  Within his FIRST YEAR as a professional wrestler, he embarked on a months-long undefeated streak, was the Eurocontinental champion, won the King of the Ring, and became WWF World Champion.  The only other guy in pro wrestling history to have been given that big of a push right away was Paul Wight, and we've all seen what became of that.  

 

4. What good would a trip to Japan do him?  He already knows how to shoot wrestle, and how to work WWF style.  That's all he needs with his current employer.  He already works with some of the best pro wrestlers in the world.  He'd have no use for any puro-style wrestling in the WWF.  Or to put more simply, when's the last time you saw a Dragon Suplex or top-rope Tombstone in the WWF, despite the presence of several guys who could do it?  

 

In short, Angle is very good now.  Not the best, but very good.  But he'll get even better in the future.

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