Benoit Must Be Stopped

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

You can't blame Benoit for the Title getting second Fiddled because HHH JUST HAD TO be in the Damn Main event...the Coverage over the HBK HHH Match was 2 times over the Benoit Kane match.

 

Christ we didn't even Know about a Kane Benoit Angle program or match till the battle royal...and when was that two weeks ago? maybe three?

 

the HBK HHH angle was on going for two months that you knew would get it's own match and they pushed it over the world title...

 

its WM8 all over again

 

 

Randy Savage vs Ric Flair midcard for the WORLD TITLE>.

 

and Sid vs Hogan Main events...

 

thats nearly what Last night was.

Bah.

 

HHH and Shawn have been feuding for more than a year and they had their final match in a HIAC. It deserved top billing.

[caboose 0]

No it didn't. Especially if they were going to have such a stinker and effectively kill off one of the WWE's top Gimmick matches.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

they didn't kill it off at all. all they did was do a different version of the match than most. It was overlong and it lagged but it wasn't a "stinker".

 

HIAC is a show-ender. The feud had been going for a long time, they had invested alot in. Kane is at best, damaged goods. There's no way they were going to sell a PPV using Kane Vs. benoit as top billing.

[caboose 0]

If they can sell a PPV on Eddie-Bradshaw, they can sell a PPV on Benoit-Kane.

 

Considering the ability of the combatants, the HIAC was poor. Repeating spots from previous matches is dull, espcially if its the third time (Ladder-Table spot).

And using a ladder inside a HIAC match is plain stupid. The HIAC is the gimmick, why use another gimmick match's trademark?

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

If they can sell a PPV on Eddie-Bradshaw, they can sell a PPV on Benoit-Kane.

And how well did that PPV sell though?

 

If I'm Vince Mcmahon and I've got to chose wether I'm going to pimp a thrown together feud featuring Someone as devalued as Kane or a Feud ending match between Two of the biggest names I have there's not really much of a choice.

 

As far as repeating spots, I agree with you. I didn't love the match but I don't think it was a stinker. I think alot of people went in wanting to hate the match because of who was in it.

[Art Sandusky 0]

The match was horrid, given the buildup and hype and what we've seen them do before. Of course, I should add that the only time they've had a good match that wasn't straight wrestling was their first encounter, nearly two years ago. Yes, their match deserved top billing, but they should have and could have done a lot more with it than the bullshit that ended up being the "classic" at Bad Blood. I really, REALLY wanted to at least look at it as "they tried as hard as they could even if it wasn't that great," but it seriously pissed me off and offended me as a fan that they'd try and insult my intelligence by telling me what I just saw was a match for the ages when all I saw was a pretty contained brawl that hardly used the gimmick of the match and the final quarter of the match spent lying around and acting as if they were drunk or trying to move in slow motion.

 

The one match since I've been "on the internet" that prompted me to turn into the "typical bitter smark." That's a feat.

[caboose 0]

Selling it on Benoit-Kane would have done just as well in my opinion as HHH-HBK. How many times in the last two years have HHH-HBK been the centre of attention? Its boring.

 

As for the Benoit-Kane fued itself, they should have done a better job putting the fued together. The second Michaels eliminated HHH in Kane's favour, it was obvious the WWE didn't give a shit. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy. If your only going to put 100% into the booking of one fued, then thats the only fued your going to be able to promote to headline a PPV.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Kane's been torn down and rebuilt so many times that I strongly doubt they'll ever get much out of him again.

[caboose 0]

I doubt they can get much out of HBK-HHH for the millionth time.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

That'd be why they ended it 'boose.

[caboose 0]

I thought 3 Stages of Bullshit at Armageddon 2002 was supposed to eb the ending?

 

Then there was Royal Rumble 2004 to settle it.

 

Then HBK said they'd settle it at WrestleMania XX regardless of Benoit.

[Guest croweater]

Kane's been torn down and rebuilt so many times that I strongly doubt they'll ever get much out of him again.

They'll probably get a plastic hand and about 4 feuds with the undertaker out of him yet.

[Golgo 13 0]

Benoit is the world champion; not HHH or HBK. On something like a PPV, the champion's match should get top billing, no matter what. It's no wonder people see Benoit as inferior when he's been continually pushed to the background in favor of HBK/HHH's issues. There's no excuse for Benoit -as the champion- not being in the headlining match on PPV.

 

Not to nitpick, but Michaels put over Jericho cleanly, or as cleanly as you'll get on RAW. Before anyone trots out the Orton/Flair interference, they didn't lead directly to finish, which was the extremely rare Michaels submission.

 

Everyone remembers the PPV match ahead of the TV match. It was the PPV match in which Michaels went over completely clean. That's what people remember, not Jericho getting a win a couple months on Raw after the fact.

 

The Jericho/Michaels Raw match was, simply put, a lousy footnote which served not to put over Jericho/Michaels, but Evolution/Michaels. It was riddled with interference, and all in all, was a completely subpar match in comparison to its predecessor.

 

Flair and Orton's copious interference, like it or not, put a damper on Jericho's win. While Jericho didn't exactly get the liontamer straight out of Orton's RKO, since he decided to go for the pin first, that RKO didn't exactly hurt in getting Jericho the upper hand and carrying the match to the finish. Let's face it, to the average fan, Jericho wouldn't have won were it not for all that interference.

 

It wouldn't have been a grave disservice for Jericho to get the same consideration HBK got earlier; a clean win in a clean match. Not to mention, the hype after the match wasn't about a Jericho win at all; it was all about the interference. HBK still came out of the match smelling like roses, while Jericho got the short end of the stick, despite the victory.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Had Jericho won at Wrestlemania XIX, boooooooy would things be different. That match crippled his chances at looking like a serious contender until recently.

[Guest Loss]

Diesel wasn't the one who got the two lowest buyrates ever.

1995 was the worst overall year in WWF history in terms of live attendance. You're right, Bret did headline two shows that are among the worst buyrates ever.

 

Right, in fact he boosted business so much that Diesel's IYH (vs the Bulldog) in october fell from a .4 to a .3 with Bret (vs Bulldog) in December and the ratings stayed the same until January, where they went up to the high 2s and low 3's.  Oh, and for some reason, they were still mysteriously getting 3s in April and May without Bret around.

 

When Bret won the title, live attendance picked up instantly. November 1995-May 1996 is one of the best house show periods the WWF has ever had. Bret was champion for the majority of that period. Ratings stabilized and yes, under Shawn, they didn't move backwards. But the same can be argued for Bret.

 

The ratings  went back and forth for both of them until the NWO.  So if Shawn couldn't compete with Flair/Savage, then neither could Bret.  Also Bret didn't seem to be able to compete with Hogan and the NWO too much in 1997.

 

Au, contraire. WWF house show business actually was better than WCW house show business in 1997. The only area where the WWF was lagging behind was TV ratings, but they were beating WCW in almost everything else. We have Bret Hart to thank for getting the ball rolling for the Attitude Era. Unlike Taker and Austin, he wasn't around to reap the benefits of it though.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

It was a combination of things. Yeah, I know WWE isn't really known for having a lot of actual wrestling during their shows. Especially the ones on free TV. I'm aware of that. The problem is, I'm a wrestling fan. I don't want to watch the soap opera stuff anymore...especially when it's fallen below "B" level now.

 

The problem is I'd at least like to see a decent match. The main event? Ya'll, I give you that. It was a decent match considering it went twenty-five minutes or so past the ten o'clock hour. The problem was by the time the match started, the will to watch was already sucked out of me. I had to watch the intro with HBK getting injured. It dragged on for about half an hour.

 

I have to admit that after paying $40 bucks for tickets, with HIAC supposed to be the finish to the HBK-HHH thing, I was pissed that HHH-HBK was the first thing I saw.

Then I got a Flag Match which was anything but. The focus of the match (which lasted what, three minutes?) was when Sylvan tried to sing the Canadian National Anthem and the crowd fucking boo'ed him. Now, I'm not Canadian, but the lack of respect still pissed me off. Of course, the crowd was supposed to boo them since they aren't American, but whatever. So much for equality, no?

 

I stood up and placed my hand over my heart. I'm pretty sure I was the only one, though.

 

If you liked the show last night, that's great. I won't knock you or anyone else for it. Different people like different things. WWE, currently, can't seem to provide me with what I'm looking for in the wrestling department. They truly are "sports entertainment" now, and I just realised how drastically different sports entertainment is from wrestling.

I have to agree with you there. Even Matt Kennedy Gould complained that there was too much talking. I'm also at the point of giving up on watching WWE for a while.

 

NOW AS FOR THE TOPIC....

saying that Benoit doesn't get a decent crowd reaction is dependent not only on the area, but the size of the crowd. The Nutter Center is a smaller arena, and wasn't completely full. His pop won't be as loud as the Rock at the Skydome. The fact that the arena isn't full isn't completely his fault either, as HHH is the focus of the show, and I'm sure there would be more fans willing to shell out cash if they thought they'd see more than just him. (Trust me, I've asked my friends, and they think the show is the same every week.)

Also, the crowd gets into the match when Benoit is in it because he commands attention in the ring. I'm a Benoit mark, but holy shit if he didn't blow my mind while he was working. I've seen Flair 3 times now, and he doesn't hold a candle to Benoit's presence. (I saw him once in the early nineties, once in the mid nineties, and Monday night. Not quite his best stuff, but good nonetheless.) You have to watch the match when Benoit's fighting, but not with everyone else.

 

ESPECIALLY not Edge. I don't care how much that chick in front of my thought that he was good.

[chaosrage 0]

Diesel wasn't the one who got the two lowest buyrates ever.

1995 was the worst overall year in WWF history in terms of live attendance. You're right, Bret did headline two shows that are among the worst buyrates ever.

 

Right, in fact he boosted business so much that Diesel's IYH (vs the Bulldog) in october fell from a .4 to a .3 with Bret (vs Bulldog) in December and the ratings stayed the same until January, where they went up to the high 2s and low 3's.  Oh, and for some reason, they were still mysteriously getting 3s in April and May without Bret around.

 

When Bret won the title, live attendance picked up instantly. November 1995-May 1996 is one of the best house show periods the WWF has ever had. Bret was champion for the majority of that period. Ratings stabilized and yes, under Shawn, they didn't move backwards. But the same can be argued for Bret.

 

The ratings  went back and forth for both of them until the NWO.  So if Shawn couldn't compete with Flair/Savage, then neither could Bret.  Also Bret didn't seem to be able to compete with Hogan and the NWO too much in 1997.

 

Au, contraire. WWF house show business actually was better than WCW house show business in 1997. The only area where the WWF was lagging behind was TV ratings, but they were beating WCW in almost everything else. We have Bret Hart to thank for getting the ball rolling for the Attitude Era. Unlike Taker and Austin, he wasn't around to reap the benefits of it though.

Where do you get house show attendance information from?

[Guest Loss]

Observer.

 

But I do agree with your main point, which was that Bret was not a major draw. However, neither was Shawn. Both had small pockets of drawing power, but neither was able to become a long-term draw. Both were more of the stabilizing types than the type to usher in a new era.

 

Shawn should also be credited for not tanking in 1996, despite WCW being hotter than ever and Hall, Nash and Bret all skipping town.

 

Bret should be credited for outperforming Hogan in 1994, who had massive promotion and was the biggest name in wrestling history, for picking up the pieces for the company after the steroid trial, and for making the international house show market a goldmine after his heel turn in 1997.

[chaosrage 0]

Well, I don't think Shawn was a great draw either, I just don't think he's as bad as everyone makes him out to be. Like you said, he didn't tank the company in 96 even though everyone was leaving and WCW was on fire. No one stopped watching right when Bret left, the ratings, buyrates, and house show numbers all stayed the same for a couple of months. DegenerationX bombed but IYH5 did even worse than that. Bret outdrew WCW in 94, but house shows in 96 with Shawn did much better than 94.

 

I'm not sure about 95 vs 96. What were the numbers for dec 95? And Jan 96? I find it hard to believe that the turn around happened in november-december when they got the lowest buyrate in the company's history at the same time and ratings didn't go up at all.

[Guest Loss]

On Meltzer's "This Day In Review" posts he made a few years ago, he said business picked up 'immediately' when Hart was given the title. I took from that that he meant November and December. I will call or e-mail in to WOL this Sunday and try to get an answer.

[Guest TheAustralian]

Personally I think Bret and HBK were ok draws, the reason is simple they were Headlining when WWe was in trouble.

 

Its quite widely recognised that WWE was in shocking condition when HBK was champ.

 

I would argue that both Bret and HBK kept WWE a float.

 

Would argue if they were arround during the peak, they would of been monster draws.

[Guest Loss]

The only people to ever really influence a huge boom are Hogan, Austin and Rock. Everyone else draws when business is good and doesn't when it's down.

[Guest krazykat72]

Jericho's problems were not caused by losing to Michaels at Mania XIX. I agree he should have gone over, and I feel he went over fine in the RAW match, but the follow up wasn't what it should have been (I'd have had him and Shawn make up and take on Evolution)......Jericho was sabotaged since day 1 in '99, when after the Rock program he went on to feud with Road Dog and Shamrock in the midcard instead of being shot to the moon. Then he lost to Chyna, and don't get me started on the logistics of that. They really had their shot with the RAW match in 4/00 to capitalize on him, but instead he was shunted right back down. Then there was Last Man Standing which *for sure* should have put him up there, and they blew that too. Then they had the great 5/01 RAW tag and once again, there was hope, until Vince panicked about Jericho vs. Austin on PPV and changed it to a 3-way which was essentially a handicap match with him and Benoit vs. Austin. Then they had him get his win over Rock, but with Stephanie's interference and then subsequently drop the title right back to Rock. Then, he won the Undisputed title, but not before getting beaten cleanly by Austin a week or two earlier on RAW to cement him as a 'weak' champion going in. Then, aside from a decent program with Rock, he was merely window dressing for the Stephanie/Triple H feud and the most impotent champion in recent memory. After losing the title, he then went on to lose HiaC, lose to RVD in Rd. One of the KotR and then generally was relegated to the Christian tag team. At this point, he needs a Benoit style winning streak, but I don't see it in the cards unless he goes to Smackdown, where he can feud with Guerrero.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[TheBigSwigg 0]

I think, as do many others, that Jericho would've been verified as a true main eventer had he beaten HHH at WM X8. He would've beaten Rock, Austin, and HHH. Though not cleanly, it would still have forced people to say "Hey, maybe he is something..."

 

Note: THis is not just blind HHHate, though this is where my HHHanger started.