Tiger Mask V Dynamite Kid

[Coffin Surfer 0]

The smartness thing is different here though. You have to be smart to be coming up with some of the stuff they were doing because they were making their own blueprints on the go without preplanning a thing and not really relying on someone else before them.

 

Not really. Their matches are laid out the same way 70s All Japan and pretty much most wrestling matches were laid out at the time. Matwork to start, a brief string of highspots to finish.

 

Even than their mat work and reversals is no less innovative than the crazy stuff Billy Robinson was doing a few years prior with Jumbo plus his escapes was usually more meaningful too. Plus, Robinson used just as much if not more state of the art high end offense as Tiger Mask and DK. Hell, Tiger Mask's head scissors escape was borrowed from the Destroyer.

 

I also don't buy that there were no "spots" in their matches, you would have to very gullable to believe that nothing was preplanned, that's total horse shit. Alot of their matches obviously use the same spots with little changes.

[Guest wildpegasus]

The smartness thing is different here though. You have to be smart to be coming up with some of the stuff they were doing because they were making their own blueprints on the go without preplanning a thing and not really relying on someone else before them.

 

Not really. Their matches are laid out the same way 70s All Japan and pretty much most wrestling matches were laid out at the time. Matwork to start, a brief string of highspots to finish.

 

Even than their mat work and reversals is no less innovative than the crazy stuff Billy Robinson was doing a few years prior with Jumbo plus his escapes was usually more meaningful too. Plus, Robinson used just as much if not more state of the art high end offense as Tiger Mask and DK. Hell, Tiger Mask's head scissors escape was borrowed from the Destroyer.

 

I also don't buy that there were no "spots" in their matches, you would have to very gullable to believe that nothing was preplanned, that's total horse shit. Alot of their matches obviously use the same spots with little changes.

Dynamite talked about in his book how the matches were not planned out at all for the most part. For example he was never 100% sure if Tiger would jump through the ropes onto him or just swing back into the ring. One guy was Japanese and one guy was British. It's like how Benoit says he did his matches in Japan on instinct. They just went in and did their thing.

 

Sorry, but I'm not educated enough to speak about Robinson.

 

Tiger Mask's head scissors escape was borrowed from the Destroyer

 

How do you know that? It could have been borrowed from anyone. I can't remember his name but I've seen Argentio Rocco?? from way back doing highflying stuff in Canada that shocked me. The point is nobody probably knows who originated the headscissors escape. Mask's moves remind me more of Mascaras than the Destroyer.

 

 

Alot of their matches obviously use the same spots with little changes.

 

As do the majority of matches that have ever existed. This does nothing to prove that stuff was preplanned.

 

Not really.  Their matches are laid out the same way 70s All Japan and pretty much most wrestling matches were laid out at the time.  Matwork to start, a brief string of highspots to finish. 

 

Dynamite and Tiger usually started their matches off with a flurry of offence before settling down to do any matwork.See, long strings of intriguing new highspots done at an extreamly high speed while thinking on the go were not that common. Thinking quickly and at the same time executing your highspots is mentally tough to do.

[Guest Ray]

"I think Ray can speak for himself."

Yeah.

 

"Well if there's better matches than it's hard to call them the greatest of all time. "

I'm not saying it's the greatest series of matches ever. You said you were enjoying better matches, as if matches just being better than TM/DK means TM/DK wasn't any good at all. That's what I was questioning.

 

As for my thoughts on them, I haven't seen the series in ages. At the time, I didn't know much about wrestling (although some would argue I still don't ), and I was basically blown away by the speed and the stiff bumping. I'd never seen anything like that. I recall most of them being quite enjoyable and wrestled in a style I tend to like.

 

I intend to re-watch them one day, but there's just too much unwatched wrestling to get to first.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

"I too like the 90s matches the best on an overall basis. The matches tend to be a little more cohesive. It's tough to beat some of Benoit, Liger and Ohtani's stuff. 4/21/83 and a couple of others were pretty dramatic however. Really the dramatic parts of 4/21/83 is a lot of the reason why I love it."

 

I was mainly talking about the way Benoit, Liger, and Co. built drama using the moves and quick exchanges, ie: building tension before an explosion of big moves, teasing finishers, selling their asses off for the big moves, etc. Is there any of that in 4/83?

 

To elaborate on my point, I just rewatched the TM/DK match I have on tape, and found that it was lacking in those areas. They don't present a clear way that either man can win other than Tiger Mask's quickness being a factor. While they do hit big moves (for the time) through out the match, few of them ammount to much since they often follow them up with simple holds that couldn't possibly win the match for them. It doesn't help that they slip up on a few of the exchanges (including a dropkick that doesn't connect). They also don't transition too well, taking control whenever they feel like it instead of countering each other's moves.

 

One portion sticks out where Sayama misses a top rope elbow drop, but he gets up and they start trying to German suplex each other. Billington finally back drops him in a particularly nasty head drop, but instead of going for a pin or the German he'd wanted before, he goes up top and misses a knee drop. Their focus is on moving things along to the next big bump instead of getting the most out of the moves they do, be it getting a hot near fall or building to the next logical move.

 

Dynamite does sell his leg huge after the missed knee drop, and Sayama pounces on it with kicks and a figure four, but they toss that story out the window once Bret Hart helps Dynamite reach the ropes in favor of a high spot sequence where the big moves (Space Flying Tiger Drop and Tombstone Piledriver on the outside) get pretty much no sold and Tiger Mask gets DQ'ed for throwing Dynamite into the crowd.

 

Any storyline that signalled a potential finish didn't last long before they moved on to the next sequence of high spots, which killed a lot of the match's momentum. From watching the match, it seems like DK and TM had the tools to work a good match, but didn't utalise the moves properly to get the most out of them. Maybe 4/83, 1/82, and 8/82 are the realization of that.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Dynamite talked about in his book how the matches were not planned out at all for the most part. For example he was never 100% sure if Tiger would jump through the ropes onto him or just swing back into the ring. One guy was Japanese and one guy was British. It's like how Benoit says he did his matches in Japan on instinct. They just went in and did their thing.

 

Ugh, unless were talking about Savage or DDP this is true with almost all matches. But just like in every match, there are spots. I'm pretty sure DK knew he was going to work the Flying Headbutt and Tombstone into the match at some point. I also wouldn't be surprised if they had a good idea what the finish was going to be. Though you've done covered your tracks with the "most part" comment.

 

How do you know that? It could have been borrowed from anyone.

 

Who he borrowed it from is not the issue, I was just pointing out that it's been done before, most notably by the Destroyer.

 

However, it's pretty gullable to think that Tiger Mask never saw one of the most popular wrestlers in his country execute one of his most famous spots.

 

As do the majority of matches that have ever existed. This does nothing to prove that stuff was preplanned.

 

Listen to yourself, man. It's hard to argue that they were inventing these sequences off the top of their head when they've ran through the same exchanges in previous matches.

 

I think when DK grabbed a wristlock, TM knew,"O.k time for our little reversal sequence." I'm not saying it was "Savage" type preplanned, I'm just saying they weren't busting out new exchanges off the top of their heads everynight like you are trying to imply that they did.

 

Like anybody else they had their "spots" that they wanted to fit into the match.

 

Dynamite and Tiger usually started their matches off with a flurry of offence before settling down to do any matwork.

 

Most matches did back than, that's my point.

 

See, long strings of intriguing new highspots done at an extreamly high speed while thinking on the go were not that common.

 

No, you were trying to say that they invented some new type of blueprint for matches when they actually followed the same formula that most already did.

 

Like I said, alot of these new intriguing highspots weren't so new. Some were but not as many as some people seem to think.

 

Long strings of high spots weren't that uncommon either, haven't you seen Jumbo pop off two or three Suplexes in a roll back in the 70s.

 

Yes, they were fast but that doesn't mean they were inventing a new blue print, they were just increasing the tempo.

 

Thinking quickly and at the same time executing your highspots is mentally tough to do.

 

So is good selling and reading the crowd, something that was evidently too tough for them.

 

I was just watching the match w/Hart at ring side. TM takes a Backdrop Driver that scares the hell of the crowd, literally causing them to jump out of their chairs. Do they take advantage of this? Maybe using it as a nearfall or putting it over as deadly move. No, one missed knee later and TM is back on offense with no trouble.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Maybe 4/83, 1/82, and 8/82 are the realization of that.

Not really.

 

1/82 stands out because it does play off some previous sequences in their other matches and lasts a reasonable amount of time. The mat work is probably some of their most interesting and both guys get in alot of high end offense(though it's not exactly put over that well). DK does a good job of showing frustration and even does a little mask tearing and choking.

 

 

8/82 stands out because it's hella fast and by far has the most high end offense of any of their matches.

 

4/83 is praised because of DK's mannerisms and personality, doing a great job of showing his frustration and determination. They do play off a few past sequences with DK finally ending up a step ahead of Tiger. Though his win at all costs attitude is hard to buy when he never attempts any pins.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Dynamite talked about in his book how the matches were not planned out at all for the most part. For example he was never 100% sure if Tiger would jump through the ropes onto him or just swing back into the ring. One guy was Japanese and one guy was British. It's like how Benoit says he did his matches in Japan on instinct. They just went in and did their thing.

 

Ugh, unless were talking about Savage or DDP this is true with almost all matches. But just like in every match, there are spots. I'm pretty sure DK knew he was going to work the Flying Headbutt and Tombstone into the match at some point. I also wouldn't be surprised if they had a good idea what the finish was going to be. Though you've done covered your tracks with the "most part" comment.

 

How do you know that? It could have been borrowed from anyone.

 

Who he borrowed it from is not the issue, I was just pointing out that it's been done before, most notably by the Destroyer.

 

However, it's pretty gullable to think that Tiger Mask never saw one of the most popular wrestlers in his country execute one of his most famous spots.

 

As do the majority of matches that have ever existed. This does nothing to prove that stuff was preplanned.

 

Listen to yourself, man. It's hard to argue that they were inventing these sequences off the top of their head when they've ran through the same exchanges in previous matches.

 

I think when DK grabbed a wristlock, TM knew,"O.k time for our little reversal sequence." I'm not saying it was "Savage" type preplanned, I'm just saying they weren't busting out new exchanges off the top of their heads everynight like you are trying to imply that they did.

 

Like anybody else they had their "spots" that they wanted to fit into the match.

 

Dynamite and Tiger usually started their matches off with a flurry of offence before settling down to do any matwork.

 

Most matches did back than, that's my point.

 

See, long strings of intriguing new highspots done at an extreamly high speed while thinking on the go were not that common.

 

No, you were trying to say that they invented some new type of blueprint for matches when they actually followed the same formula that most already did.

 

Like I said, alot of these new intriguing highspots weren't so new. Some were but not as many as some people seem to think.

 

Long strings of high spots weren't that uncommon either, haven't you seen Jumbo pop off two or three Suplexes in a roll back in the 70s.

 

Yes, they were fast but that doesn't mean they were inventing a new blue print, they were just increasing the tempo.

 

Thinking quickly and at the same time executing your highspots is mentally tough to do.

 

So is good selling and reading the crowd, something that was evidently too tough for them.

 

I was just watching the match w/Hart at ring side. TM takes a Backdrop Driver that scares the hell of the crowd, literally causing them to jump out of their chairs. Do they take advantage of this? Maybe using it as a nearfall or putting it over as deadly move. No, one missed knee later and TM is back on offense with no trouble.

Ugh, unless were talking about Savage or DDP this is true with almost all matches.  But just like in every match, there are spots. I'm pretty sure DK knew he was going to work the Flying Headbutt and Tombstone into the match at some point.  I also wouldn't be surprised if they had a good idea what the finish was going to be.  Though you've done covered your tracks with the "most part" comment

 

We're simply misinterpeting each other here. Of course DK knew he was going to hit the tombstone and headbutt in the match. They're his big moves. What I'm saying is before the match DK and Tiger both don't know exactly when those moves will be hit. The only match finish I'm pretty sure on is 4/21/83 where there was legit confusion going on which DK talked about on his site. I do think you underestimate on an overall basis how much matches are preplanned. I'm really not sure what you mean by that last line.

 

However, it's pretty gullable to think that Tiger Mask never saw one of the most popular wrestlers in his country execute one of his most famous spots.

 

You're putting works in my mouth. When did I say I never thought Mask didn't see a Destroyer match?

 

Listen to yourself, man.  It's hard to argue that they were inventing these sequences off the top of their head when they've ran through the same exchanges in previous matches.

 

But the exchanges weren't all exactly the same and done in the same exact order. Even if they were hypothetically the same they still had to start coming from their first couple of matches.

 

 

Most matches did back than, that's my point.

 

How's that your point when you originally said they started off with matwork like so many other matches did?

 

No, you were trying to say that they invented some new type of blueprint for matches when they actually followed the same formula that most already did.

 

But you see long strings of intriguing new highspots done at an extreamly high speed while thinking on the go are blueprints.

 

Long strings of high spots weren't that uncommon either, haven't you seen Jumbo pop off two or three Suplexes in a roll back in the 70s.

 

I'll be more specific here. Long strings of high spots as in a succesion of moves done in a role without a noticeable break in action. For example the 1/28/82 match. In the beginning of that match they do a sequence of moves like only they can.

 

 

So is good selling and reading the crowd, something that was evidently too tough for them.

 

Look at it the other way. Maybe thinking quickly and executing your highspots were too tough mentally for other wrestlers to do not to mention physically. Just today I was reading how one of the best wrestlers in the world basically said the same exact thing and that's one of the reasons why he prefered not wrestling that way.

 

I was just watching the match w/Hart at ring side.  TM takes a Backdrop Driver that scares the hell out of the crowd, literally causing them to jump out of their chairs.  Do they take advantage of this?  Maybe using it as a nearfall or putting it over as deadly move. No, one missed knee later and TM is back on offense with no trouble.

 

You're going to find non selling issues but as it's been already mentined this series is about the counters, moveset, speed, innovation and the aura of the matches. You also have some learnt physcology. There's no doubt there's controversial selling but your quote of "Do they take advantage of this?" is wrong. One of Dynamite's big moves in his arsenal is the kneedrop from the top of the cage, the middle rope or as we see here the top rope. Dynamite likes to hit the head area with this move. What better way to take advantage of a suplex that murders Tiger's neck than with a kneedrop to the back of the head? If Dyno goes for a cover than he wastes time that he needs to go to the top rope and deliver the knee. He can't risk time covering him and risk not getting his big kneedrop in. Remember he is fighting Tiger Mask here and not your everyday common wrestler. Tiger is one of the most undefeatable wrestlers ever. You can't underestimate him.

 

Now should Tiger have moved out of the way? We can debate about that but at least it leads to a fun figure four leglock.

[Guest wildpegasus]

"I too like the 90s matches the best on an overall basis. The matches tend to be a little more cohesive. It's tough to beat some of Benoit, Liger and Ohtani's stuff. 4/21/83 and a couple of others were pretty dramatic however. Really the dramatic parts of 4/21/83 is a lot of the reason why I love it."

 

I was mainly talking about the way Benoit, Liger, and Co. built drama using the moves and quick exchanges, ie: building tension before an explosion of big moves, teasing finishers, selling their asses off for the big moves, etc. Is there any of that in 4/83?

 

To elaborate on my point, I just rewatched the TM/DK match I have on tape, and found that it was lacking in those areas. They don't present a clear way that either man can win other than Tiger Mask's quickness being a factor. While they do hit big moves (for the time) through out the match, few of them ammount to much since they often follow them up with simple holds that couldn't possibly win the match for them. It doesn't help that they slip up on a few of the exchanges (including a dropkick that doesn't connect). They also don't transition too well, taking control whenever they feel like it instead of countering each other's moves.

 

One portion sticks out where Sayama misses a top rope elbow drop, but he gets up and they start trying to German suplex each other. Billington finally back drops him in a particularly nasty head drop, but instead of going for a pin or the German he'd wanted before, he goes up top and misses a knee drop. Their focus is on moving things along to the next big bump instead of getting the most out of the moves they do, be it getting a hot near fall or building to the next logical move.

 

Dynamite does sell his leg huge after the missed knee drop, and Sayama pounces on it with kicks and a figure four, but they toss that story out the window once Bret Hart helps Dynamite reach the ropes in favor of a high spot sequence where the big moves (Space Flying Tiger Drop and Tombstone Piledriver on the outside) get pretty much no sold and Tiger Mask gets DQ'ed for throwing Dynamite into the crowd.

 

Any storyline that signalled a potential finish didn't last long before they moved on to the next sequence of high spots, which killed a lot of the match's momentum. From watching the match, it seems like DK and TM had the tools to work a good match, but didn't utalise the moves properly to get the most out of them. Maybe 4/83, 1/82, and 8/82 are the realization of that.

The match with Hart at ringside (He's actually at ringside for 2 of them) doesn't have the best flow of all time. It's still as fun as anything though. From seeing what you like in your matches you should like the 8/5/82 match where they do some smart stuff and play the "I know your moves real well" game.

 

I think these would be the matches that certain fans who aren't big fanatics of DK vs TM would like the best.

 

1/1/82 Very fun match that's got a nice flow to it.

 

1/28/82 which had perhaps the best flow of them all.

 

4/21/83 which tells a story and is very emotional. For me anyway. Yes, they tease the german/backdrop suplex in a fantastic sequence here really well all complete with a super desperation flavour. Plus DK shows he's learnt from the previous matches here in this very sequence. The selling was pretty good in this one too. Dynamite showing fatigue while Tiger was outside the ring was really nice looking.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

We're simply misinterpeting each other here. Of course DK knew he was going to hit the tombstone and headbutt in the match. They're his big moves. What I'm saying is before the match DK and Tiger both don't know exactly when those moves will be hit.

 

Than there just like any other wrestlers in that regard, which is what I've been trying to say here.

 

The only match finish I'm pretty sure on is 4/21/83 where there was legit confusion going on which DK talked about on his site.

 

Well that worked out just peachy didn't it?

 

I do think you underestimate on an overall basis how much matches are preplanned.

 

I think you just don't understand what I'm saying.

 

You're putting works in my mouth. When did I say I never thought Mask didn't see a Destroyer match?

 

By saying he could have got the head scissors escape from anywhere when there's an extremly high possibility he saw the Destroyer do it. Once again, it doesn't matter as that was not the point of my original comment.

 

But the exchanges weren't all exactly the same and done in the same exact order.

 

Your missing the point. Your original comment praised them for being these innovative wrestlers who were inventing these new sequences in every match. When really it's alot of the same stuff mixed up with a few slight changes. Nothing wrong with that since it really isn't no different from what alot of other wrestlers do.

 

Even if they were hypothetically the same they still had to start coming from their first couple of matches.

 

Well obviously, but when their already using very similar exchanges it kind of kills the coming up with stuff on the fly argument.

 

How's that your point when you originally said they started off with matwork like so many other matches did?

 

It wasn't a detailed statement, I thought it was implied that there was a hot opening. Go back and watch matches from the late 70s or early 80s, even something like Race/Baba 10/31/79 opens hot, has the mat work, than finishes with the nearfalls and highspots. It's the same blue print that most matches were following from that time.

 

But you see long strings of intriguing new highspots done at an extreamly high speed while thinking on the go are blueprints.

 

AGAIN, it's the same blueprint most matches were following at that time. Making it faster doesn't change the construction of the match.

 

In the beginning of that match they do a sequence of moves like only they can.

 

I'll say it again, they were fast. Not denying that.

 

Maybe thinking quickly and executing your highspots were too tough mentally for other wrestlers to do not to mention physically.

 

Sorry, I prefer smart matches. Not this different kind of smartness your talking about though.

 

Do they take advantage of this?" is wrong. One of Dynamite's big moves in his arsenal is the kneedrop from the top of the cage, the middle rope or as we see here the top rope.

 

Compare it to how Baba's boys would treat the head drops in the early 90s. The knee drop never got the same "Oh my god, he really killed him" reaction from the crowd. It was already a regularly used move up to that point, that Destroyer fellow used it a few times as well. The Backdrop Driver was not. Once again, it's just an example of them failing to smartly read the crowd and gage their reactions.

 

Nothing wrong with TM avoiding the Knee drop but considering how the crowd reacted to the spot he should have probably done a little more to put over the move.