Bush Exercising Subtlety with France

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

As for "cheese eating surrendering monkeys" - all I can say is that the French don't have 900 soldiers deaths on their hands and over 10,000 Iraqi civilians deaths on their hands.

 

Didn't Unger get completely owned by Cerebus for making this exact same point?

[Guest INXS]

I've just quoted THREE SOURCES. In a sit down interview with John Snow of Channel 4 news, Tony Blair acknowledged the "approximate figure of 10,000".

 

What is the "correct" figure in your mind?

[Guest MikeSC]

I've just quoted THREE SOURCES. In a sit down interview with John Snow of Channel 4 news, Tony Blair acknowledged the "approximate figure of 10,000".

 

What is the "correct" figure in your mind?

Umm, the article about May flat-out stated that non-governmental agencies are giving widely varying numbers of civilian dead.

 

And CIVIC isn't EXACTLY an impartial organization. Campaign for Innocent Victims In Combat just sounds like there might be an idealogical axe to grind.

As for "cheese eating surrendering monkeys" - all I can say is that the French don't have 900 soldiers deaths on their hands and over 10,000 Iraqi civilians deaths on their hands.

Their propping of Saddam resulted in FAR more Iraqi civilian deaths.

So, the figure is at LEAST 10,000 if you take into account that it's now July not May.

Except that nobody, technically, can PROVE this.

-=Mike

[Guest INXS]

As for "cheese eating surrendering monkeys" - all I can say is that the French don't have 900 soldiers deaths on their hands and over 10,000 Iraqi civilians deaths on their hands.

Their propping of Saddam resulted in FAR more Iraqi civilian deaths.

Figures of the amount of Iraqi civilian deaths during his last year in power please, with sources.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

You really missed the point he was trying to make.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Probably none, it's just that France is about the LAST Western nation I'd ever use as any kind of role model for political issues.

If anything, you'd think they want Turkey involved since they're a Muslim nation and France has a reputation as the most anti-Semitic country in western Europe (it would be all of Europe, but Russia exists) over hundreds and hundreds of years of their history.

[Guest BDC]

It's easy to ask for something when the country in which it happened didn't keep records of it.

[Guest Hero to all Children]

Saying that the US is responsible for 10 000 civillian deaths is a bit crass. It's like saying that the cops are to blame for every unnatural death that occurs in their country and that the doctors of country X should all be lynched for every natural death that COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTABLE IN SOME WAY.

 

If you're occupying a country and fighting against a bunch of insurgents .. well .. people will die. By your hands, by their hands. To the people who count the bodies that hardly makes a difference.

 

 

Now you could say that boohoo these ten thousand civillians only snuffed it because the US decided to invade. But .. that's short-sighted. If 1.3 million children under the age of five died during the sanctions (as many people claim and as I am willing to believe) within 13 years, that makes 100 000 deaths of starvation and other sicknesses a year.

Now if we can allow Iraq to become a nation in which you can actually buy medication and food, with a healthy economy .. well .. durnit, that's worth 10 000 people.

If the actions we took end up making Iraq a prosperous nation only one year earlier than it would have gone on that road after the natural death of Saddam then we've practically SAVED 90 000 CHILDREN. That's not even counting the adults that would have died too.

 

You can do anything you want with numbers. But you have to admit that "you can't liberate and reshape a nation without killing a few thousand people directly and indirectly" holds true.

 

 

And INXS .. I would like to ask you WHY this isn't any of Bush' business.

Turkey has been a long time ally in the middle east and is actually the democracy that doesn't tell us to fuck off frequently and sank none of our warships unlike Israel, our other ally in that region.

 

France is being tight-ass about admitting Turkey because of aforementioned reasons, which can also be used against the new EU member nations that just joined recently. The only reason this is really being pulled through is because you can appease a certain percentage of the people by saying "Them sand niggers shall only join our club over our cold, dead body."

 

So .. really, what is your reasoning for disagreeing with Mr. Bush here?

Would you still say "They had no business saying that!" if it had been ... Switzerland or England or Japan? I mean, the latter isn't even directly allied with Turkey.

 

Admit it, this was a knee-jerk "Bush sucks" reaction.

[Guest MikeSC]

As for "cheese eating surrendering monkeys" - all I can say is that the French don't have 900 soldiers deaths on their hands and over 10,000 Iraqi civilians deaths on their hands.

Their propping of Saddam resulted in FAR more Iraqi civilian deaths.

Figures of the amount of Iraqi civilian deaths during his last year in power please, with sources.

I have BETTER sources for it than you've presented for your claims.

 

I have mass graves of people Saddam had killed.

-=Mike

[Art Sandusky 0]

How about both sides of this argument produce proof of their viewpoints instead of just making claims or saying "I have evidence!" over and over again.

[Guest MikeSC]

How about both sides of this argument produce proof of their viewpoints instead of just making claims or saying "I have evidence!" over and over again.

I have, you know, MASS FUCKING GRAVES!

 

Lots of them.

-=Mike

[Art Sandusky 0]

It's obvious that INXS won't be satisfied and will continue to harp on things until you provide some sort of non-partisan link, so just dig one up. Is that so hard?

 

Geez, you try to defuse a retarded argument...

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Does this count as a source?

 

[Guest Hero to all Children]

Google-Voltron to the rescue!

 

http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000374.php

 

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0305/S00209.htm

 

You like amnesty International, right?

 

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irq-article_6-eng

 

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/internation...1111164,00.html

 

 

I hope you guys are happy. There are mass graves, there's loads of dead people in them, Saddam Hussein is a crook.

 

.. Why did I waste ten minutes of my life searching google for evidence to the obvious?

[Guest MikeSC]

Google-Voltron to the rescue!

 

http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000374.php

 

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0305/S00209.htm

 

You like amnesty International, right?

 

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irq-article_6-eng

 

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/internation...1111164,00.html

 

 

I hope you guys are happy. There are mass graves, there's loads of dead people in them, Saddam Hussein is a crook.

 

.. Why did I waste ten minutes of my life searching google for evidence to the obvious?

Because some people think that Iraqi Body Count is more valid than video of mass graves getting uncovered.

-=Mike

[Guest Hero to all Children]

The Holocaust Iraqi Mass Grave Denial just exists to line a certain presidents pockets anyways.

 

You see, they've hired professionals (who are all somehow blood-related to Bush, go nepotism) who infiltrate leftist circles and then claim something ridiculous such as the fact that hundred thousands of Iraqis never 'disappeared' and died, just to be stowed away in mass graves they discredit the left politics at large.

This move by the New World Order is an exceptionally important piece in the puzzle as it'll prevent anyone from believing the left when they realize the terrible truth:

Haliburton is about to buy out Kraft Foods and the company that produces Cheetos, change the recepies of the individual food articles so that they include crack and mind-control substances and finally become the new official world government, ruling an army of cracker-addicted lard-asses.

 

It all makes sense if you wear my special tinfoil hat.

[Guest MikeSC]

BREAKING NEWS.

 

AP --- WASHINGTON, DC

 

Oil superpower Halliburton has just announced their hostile takeover of God...

-=Mike

[Guest Hero to all Children]

That shit is quoted.

[Guest INXS]

As for "cheese eating surrendering monkeys" - all I can say is that the French don't have 900 soldiers deaths on their hands and over 10,000 Iraqi civilians deaths on their hands.

Their propping of Saddam resulted in FAR more Iraqi civilian deaths.

Figures of the amount of Iraqi civilian deaths during his last year in power please, with sources.

I have BETTER sources for it than you've presented for your claims.

 

I have mass graves of people Saddam had killed.

-=Mike

I said DURING SADDAM's last year in power.

 

So we can compare how many civilians were killed at the hands of Saddam compared to how many at the hands of Bush.

 

A one year period...get to it.

[Guest INXS]

How about both sides of this argument produce proof of their viewpoints instead of just making claims or saying "I have evidence!" over and over again.

I've provided links to my sources already in this thread.

 

Waiting on Mike to show me how many people Sadddam killed during his last year as President of Iraq.

[Guest INXS]

Saying that the US is responsible for 10 000 civillian deaths is a bit crass. It's like saying that the cops are to blame for every unnatural death that occurs in their country and that the doctors of country X should all be lynched for every natural death that COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTABLE IN SOME WAY.

 

And INXS .. I would like to ask you WHY this isn't any of Bush' business.

Turkey has been a long time ally in the middle east and is actually the democracy that doesn't tell us to fuck off frequently and sank none of our warships unlike Israel, our other ally in that region.

Firstly..it's not 10,000 Iraqi civilians killed in total, including road accidents etc as you suggest..it's 10,000 killed due to the various bombings carried out by the coalition...

 

Secondly, Bish has no right to publically push for Turkey to be included in the EU. He can offer his advice in private to the leaders of other EU countries that' fine..i'm not standing for it publically.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

How about both sides of this argument produce proof of their viewpoints instead of just making claims or saying "I have evidence!" over and over again.

I've provided links to my sources already in this thread.

 

Waiting on Mike to show me how many people Sadddam killed during his last year as President of Iraq.

Because you're asking for the most irrelevant piece of crap information. It has jack shit to do with anything and you've already been told they didn't keep records of such things.

[Guest Hero to all Children]

Look, I don't particularly agree with Mike but you're making it hard not to do so simply by the associaton of the Anti-Mike stance with your opinions.

 

What does it matter how many people Saddam had killed last year? Unlike the Germans he didn't keep records like a mofo. And this whole "at the hands of Bush" thing is misguided, as I said before.

 

Unless you're willing to count all Iraq War II and post-war deaths as Bush and Saddam because Saddam could have prevented most of this by stepping down.

 

But oooh that wouldn't have been a sensible decision from his point of view just like letting Iraq linger on until Saddam resigns or croaks wouldn't have been the most rational thing to do either.

 

 

Precise numbers are all-together impossible anyways because .. well, guess what: No one can agree on how many of the civillians and military types who died during terrorist insurgant attacks died at the hands of Al Quaeda or at the hands of old Baathists.

And even if you were to be defeated in this game of numbers you'd most likely fall back on "WELL THE US GOVERNMENT TOTALLY FUNDED SADDAM AND OSAMA BIN LADEN SO THEYRE TO BLAME NONE THE LESS NYA NYA NYA" making you effectively imprevious to reason. Like a stone.

 

So really, in the end you're the ultra-liberal equivalent to Mike, just without a sense of humour.

 

 

 

Abbendum: regarding your reply:

 

Dropping bombs kills people. HOLY SHIT! That's kind of what happens, that cannot be prevented. If you wage a war to prevent worse evil (while aquiring some more geopolitical leverage) then you kill people in the process.

So, again: What if we had waited another year? Wouldn't this have meant more bloodshed as these ten thousand deaths were unavoidable in this kind of course of action and Saddam would have just continued to rule under UN sanctions?

There's a German saying that goes "It's better to have a terrible ending than terror without end."

 

I mean .. unless you have a workable sollution to the whole Iraq thing that could have been applied in 2003. I'm burning to hear it because no one has come up with anything even remotely reasonable that is not a derivative of "go in, kick his ass, establish a new government."

 

 

 

Regarding Turkey you still didn't answer the question: Why doesn't he have the right to say it? Publically, as the president of the US of A. Why? It's a perfectly legitimate political agenda to get Turkey into the EU.

Just like it's perfectly legitimate for people to disagree with Bush and say so in public, even if they're heads of state. Especially if this co-incides with their country's political agenda.