Hhh doesnt job cleanly

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

If you are counting Wrestlemania 17, you are forgetting McMahon's run-in and all of the chairshots that it took to put him down. I count ref bumps because they are used to save a guy's heat. A ref will be knocked out and one of the wrestlers will have the guy pinned, but the referee is out and the guy can say he had the guy pinned.

[Guest bcu1979]

The person who put up the supposed 3 years of study only did HHH's matches. If you go back and look at the track records of Austin, Rock, and taker you'll see that those guys record is on par with HHH's. Plus the 3 year thing was only ppv matches if I'm not mistaken. Another thing is as a heel he's not supposed to job all the damn time. The chase for his title was a very lucrative time in 2000 for wwf. It's a fact that ratings actually went down a smidge when Rock won the title off of HHH at Backlash 2000 because the chase was over. Hell, if you look at HHH's record in 2001 before he got hurt you'll see he lost quite a bit on ppv. He's even lost this year on ppv, twice. The jobbing clean thing is moot to me. The last time a top face jobbed clean was Mick Foley. Show me a time where Austin and Rock jobbed "clean" to someone.

A heel should not lose very often. But when the heel champion does lose to end the chase it should be clean to give the fans the payoff they want. That is something that never happened when Triple H was the champion.

 

Rock should have finally beaten Triple H one on one to win the belt at Mania or Backlash. But the ending of Backlash was not Rock finally beating Triple H to regain the title. All the focus was on Austin who did his run-in and knocked everyone out with a chair. Rock then pinned Triple H after Austin's interference. Compare this to Triple H's pin over Jericho when he won the title at Mania this year or Austin's pin over Rock when he won the title in 1999.

 

It got Rock's title run off to a weak start and then he had his nuts immediately cut off when Triple H won the belt back at the next PPV. And who did Rock pin to finally end the Rock/Triple H feud at King Of the Ring?  Triple H? Of course not. He pinned Vince McMahon in a ridiculous 6 man tag match.

 

Maybe the ratings went down because of the crappy payoff the Rock and the WWF fans got. Instead of seeing their hero Rocky finally conquer the evil Triple H. They saw Rock needing outside interference and screw job finishes to finally win back the title from Triple H.

 

Then the WWF turned right around and did the same thing next month with the Triple H/Jericho feud. This feud had been building up for months ever since the false title change back on RAW. Jericho was at the peak of his popularity in the WWF during his time. The fans had annointed him as the guy they wanted to see in the main events next (similar to RVD a few months ago) and they were ready for him to finally beat Triple H one-on-one without any screw-job aftermath.

 

But after building up the match and Jericho tremendously, they completely dropped the ball by having Triple H win the match and then announce the feud was over on RAW the next night in a promo that completely buried Jericho. The loss would not have hurt Triple H at all. But it would have immediately moved up Jericho to main event status and probably made him the hottest guy on the roster.

 

Instead, the fans were once again denied a payoff they wanted to see and the guy they wanted to see at the top was shown to be beneath the real main eventers. In my opinion, it's feuds like these that caused the WWF to start losing some of their fanbase because they lost confidence in the WWF to create new stars and give them rewarding payoffs in the end of long feuds. A lack of confidence that I believe continues to exist today as WWF has repeated the same mistakes of Triple H/Jericho time and time again.

 

A list of wins and losses is not nearly as important as looking at whether anyone benefited from those losses. Anyone can do a job. What's important is putting the guy over that you are losing to. Sure Triple H jobbed to Kurt Angle at No Way OUt this year and at Royal Rumble the year before. But neither win put Angle over. NWO was just to put over Stephanie McMahon. And the RR was just to put over Austin and build up Austin/Triple H for NWO 2001. Austin jobbed to Jericho at Vengeance and at NWO 2002. But neither win made Jericho look credible or look like he was in the same league as Austin.

 

On the other hand, Rock did put over Jericho at No Mercy and at Vengeance even though neither was a "clean" finish. Rock put over Angle at No Mercy 2000 when Angle won the title. Austin put Angle over at SummerSlam even though it was a DQ finish. I'll wait and see the follow-up, but right now I would say that Triple H put Jericho over on Smackdown. The problem with the WWF recently is that the number of "jobs" far outweigh the number of  "elevations."

 

It's not necessary that every victory be "clean." But it is necessary that when Austin/Rock/Triple H do a job for an Angle or a Jericho or Benoit or RVD, that they do it in a way that elevates their opponent. Otherwise, the fans won't believe that anyone can ever beat the top guys. And if they don't believe anyone else can ever beat the top guys, then they give up on anyone ever moving up the card. And once there is no belief that the midcarders will ever be anything more, people stop caring about them and the product. We saw this cycle in WCW and it's been repeating itself lately in the WWF. It's a cycle the WWF deperately needs to break and they can start doing that next week by building up Jericho's victory over Triple H as an important event and NOT as a  FLUKE.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

If you are counting Wrestlemania 17, you are forgetting McMahon's run-in and all of the chairshots that it took to put him down. I count ref bumps because they are used to save a guy's heat. A ref will be knocked out and one of the wrestlers will have the guy pinned, but the referee is out and the guy can say he had the guy pinned.

I didn't forget. The WM17 match was no-DQ, therefore, everything that was done in the match was nice and legal. Also, the only thing McMahon did in the match was distract Rock and hold him up for an Austin chairshot, so his involvement in the match was much like Undertaker's in the HHH/Jericho match.

[Guest Special K]

I think the HHH/Rock payoff was exceedingly lame, though, and the way Rock won the title made him a lame duck from the get-go. This was probably more the mcmahon's wanting to get in the ME than HHH's fault though.

 

    And from where I was sitting, HHH really did put over Jericho on SD.

[Guest Brian]

I'd give Rock credit on his No Mercy match with Jericho as he totally put him over and Jericho went over pretty much clean by standards, like his match with Triple H.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I didn't forget. The WM17 match was no-DQ, therefore, everything that was done in the match was nice and legal. Also, the only thing McMahon did in the match was distract Rock and hold him up for an Austin chairshot, so his involvement in the match was much like Undertaker's in the HHH/Jericho match.

 

So you have to shoot someone for a job to be unclean? No DQ or not, were the fans saying the Rock was screwed? Was there an excuse made for the Rock's loss? Did they have him lose the match cleanly, or did they have him lose in a way that was questionable, thus saving his heat. If you are going to count certain things for Triple H, and then make exceptions for wrestlers that you don't hate, you aren't being fair. You are kidding yourself if you think anyone goes from bell to bell withour any interfernce or any heat saving nonsense these days. You are most likely to see that on Jakked or Heat where they have clean endings and nobody is worried about keeping their heat. The main idea here, is jobbing in a way that keeps your heat instead of putting your opponent over.

[Guest Dangerous A]

Just to add that HHH jobbed at Summerslam in the 3-way with Rock and Angle. Plus that match was more of Rock vs HHH because of the injury to Angle at the beggining of the match. Still HHH jobbed. I'll add that HHH's last man standing match with Jericho helped elevate Jericho somewhat even though Jericho jobbed. It was wwf dropping the ball by putting Jericho back in a feud with Benoit following Fully Loaded. I also believe that it was more Angle working the love triangle with HHH and Steph that elevated him more than his program with Rock at No Mercy 2000. No Mercy 2000 solidified him from a pure workrate standpoint. The love triangle is what elevated him in casual fans minds. And whoever made the point about the McMahons wanting more ME time by interfering with Rock and HHH's Backlash match hit it right on the nail. Another point to that situation is that Vince wanted Austin there to pop a buyrate because he thought Rock/HHH match needed a little something extra instead of just your regualar title match. It also fit the story because the McMahon interference at WM2000 is what cost Rock the match, and with Austin there it would neutralize the McMahons.

[Guest bcu1979]

Just to add that HHH jobbed at Summerslam in the 3-way with Rock and Angle. Plus that match was more of Rock vs HHH because of the injury to Angle at the beggining of the match. Still HHH jobbed. I'll add that HHH's last man standing match with Jericho helped elevate Jericho somewhat even though Jericho jobbed. It was wwf dropping the ball by putting Jericho back in a feud with Benoit following Fully Loaded. I also believe that it was more Angle working the love triangle with HHH and Steph that elevated him more than his program with Rock at No Mercy 2000. No Mercy 2000 solidified him from a pure workrate standpoint. The love triangle is what elevated him in casual fans minds. And whoever made the point about the McMahons wanting more ME time by interfering with Rock and HHH's Backlash match hit it right on the nail. Another point to that situation is that Vince wanted Austin there to pop a buyrate because he thought Rock/HHH match needed a little something extra instead of just your regualar title match. It also fit the story because the McMahon interference at WM2000 is what cost Rock the match, and with Austin there it would neutralize the McMahons.

I don't recall the exact ending to the Summer Slam match. I just remember being pissed at the time because they hyped up Angle being in his first PPV match and then he gets taken out of 75% of the match. Leaving another lame Triple H/Rock match that I already seen (and bought) a dozen times.

 

Triple H jobbing to Rock at Summer Slam is one of those day late/dollar short deal. By that time, Rock had cooled off a great deal because of the terrible booking of his title reign(s) and the Rock/Triple H feud was pretty much done to death because they refused to move HHH out of the main events and give Rock a new opponent. As for Backlash, Austin or no Austin. There's no excuse for cheating the fans and Rock out of their deserved payoff. Austin could have run off the McMahons and left Rock and Triple H alone in the ring to battle it out. It was just one of many booking decisions made that year that just happened to make Triple H look good at the expense of the product and the other wrestlers.

 

Somehow the McMahon family was able to stay out of the way when Triple H was beating up Mick Foley every week for two months and then retired him on PPV.

 

I agree that Jericho was elevated by his match with Triple H. But the WWF dropped the ball the very next night when Triple H was allowed to cut that promo burying Jericho, saying he was beneath him and that he had nothing left to settle with Jericho.

 

Let me get this straight. Rising babyface and top heel have tremendous PPV match. Rising babyface gives great performance but in the end the heel barely escapes with win. They follow that up by having the heel say babyface is beneath him and dismisses his challenge for a rematch. Babyface then accepts that and moves down the card to face another midcarder as the feud is immediately dropped.

 

Triple H looks great but Jericho just looks like some punk bitch who isn't good enough to hang with the top guys.

 

Yes, the love storyline is what really put Angle on the map. But in the end it was just another story with a great build and a crappy payoff that hurt Angle and the fans confidence in the product.  Everyone was waiting for the big moment where Angle and Stephanie got caught or Stephanie turned on Triple H and revealed she had been sleeping with Angle.

 

Instead, we had Stephanie staying with Triple H because "it didn't make sense to the Triple H character" that he would not know his wife was cheating on him or some bullshit like that. Again, the fans don't get the payoff they want. Triple H does not turn face and go crazy trying to exact revenge on Angle for stealing his wife. Angle does not get Stephanie on his arm and become an instant player. Nope. Angle gets portrayed as a gay dork who couldn't land Stephanie while Triple H wins the feud and keeps Stephanie. Triple H looks like a million bucks once again at the expense of the fans and the other wrestlers.

 

Think how different Angle's first title reign might have been if he had gone from stealing Stephanie and beating Triple H to then winning the title from Rock, with both guys chasing him all winter. Instead, Angle lets Stephanie become his "business advisor" after she plays him for a fool and costs him a PPV match against Triple H. And then he runs scared of everyone in sight for the next 4 months.

 

I know this thread is getting slightly off-topic and I don't want to turn it into another "Triple H is the devil thread." Triple H is certainly not the WWF's only problem or the WWF's only main eventer with an aversion to putting other people over. And he can be one of their biggest assets when he's on his game and is part of the team.

 

But I don't see how anyone can deny that a good deal of the booking done in the WWF the last couple years has benefited the Triple H character at the expense of other characters and the long term health of the WWF product. There's just too many examples to chalk it up to coincidence or stupid ideas. Blame it on who you want to but the protection of the Triple H character has prevented the WWF from creating new stars and providing the fans with satisyfying storyline endings the last couple years.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

I didn't forget. The WM17 match was no-DQ, therefore, everything that was done in the match was nice and legal. Also, the only thing McMahon did in the match was distract Rock and hold him up for an Austin chairshot, so his involvement in the match was much like Undertaker's in the HHH/Jericho match.

 

So you have to shoot someone for a job to be unclean? No DQ or not, were the fans saying the Rock was screwed? Was there an excuse made for the Rock's loss? Did they have him lose the match cleanly, or did they have him lose in a way that was questionable, thus saving his heat. If you are going to count certain things for Triple H, and then make exceptions for wrestlers that you don't hate, you aren't being fair. You are kidding yourself if you think anyone goes from bell to bell withour any interfernce or any heat saving nonsense these days. You are most likely to see that on Jakked or Heat where they have clean endings and nobody is worried about keeping their heat. The main idea here, is jobbing in a way that keeps your heat instead of putting your opponent over.

Okay, you completely lost me there. Exactly WHERE did Rock get screwed at? The beatdown was ALL AUSTIN and ALL LEGAL. Wow, Vince ran-in and didn't do jackshit and there was a ref bump, big fucking deal. In the context of the rules stated for the match, Austin won cleanly. Sheesh... a no-DQ match pretty much lays out that "anything goes" and BOTH guys used it to their advantage, so if it WAS just a regular match, they'd have both been DQed for using the ring bell OR counted out for all the brawling outside.

 

Also, I don't see where I wasn't being fair at all. Undertaker did a run-in and did nothing, so did Vince. There's no favoritism there. If it was HHH/Angle or Rock/Jericho and the same thing happened that caused HHH and Rock to win, I'd say the same thing about them too.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Then why was everyone talking about a blowoff rematch at Wrestlemania? Why was everybody waiting for a rematch if Rock jobbed without saving his heat? It took fifty chairshots and a McMahon run-in to beat him.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Then why was everyone talking about a blowoff rematch at Wrestlemania? Why was everybody waiting for a rematch if Rock jobbed without saving his heat? It took fifty chairshots and a McMahon run-in to beat him.

Probably because Rock has never beaten Austin in a one-on-one match before. And has I stated before, Vince's run-in didn't do much, so he was practically a non-factor. The chairshots(which WERE legal) were ALL done by Austin. Maybe they said he was screwed because of the fact that the no-DQ stips were added on right before the match began? Because that's something that nobody had addressed after the match. Why do you have such a hard-on for arguing about this anyway? In the context of the match rules, Austin won cleanly because the chairshots were legal and so were the ring bell shots both guys traded eariler in the match.