NOAH 7/10 Tokyo Dome Results...

[Guest Black Tiger]

Why is it only two of us can figure out that Misawa & Kobashi more likely have different ideas of what makes up a good match than they did 10 years ago, and that their new ideas aren't actually 'good'?? Instead of looking at their work carefully and thinking about how the crowds were responding, back during the days of the Jumbo feud and the early Kawada feud, they just assumed the crowd only cared about nasty bumps.

 

Tom, thank you for that reply. I spent about fifteen minutes trying to reply with something similar to that effect, but wasn't sure the way to word it.

 

If you just take a look at Misawa vs Kobashi from 10/25/95, you'll see that even way back then, they really didn't know how to build a match together. They throw bombs litterally whenver they feel like it. 3/31/96 is similar, there is no real story to what they do. The only logical part I can see is in the very end, when Misawa busts out the jumping neckbreaker drop when its obvious his aray of moves involving the word "Tiger" aren't getting it done. 3/31/96, to me is the very start of the "delayed selling" that would creep into All Japan matches over the next few years.

 

I've never seen their much claimed 10/97 Triple Crown match, but after seeing what they were doing together at this point in time, the fact that they put on a classic (1/97) and a supposed classic (10/97) is kind of shocking to me.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

3/31/96, to me is the very start of the "delayed selling" that would creep into All Japan matches over the next few years.

 

I've never seen their much claimed 10/97 Triple Crown match, but after seeing what they were doing together at this point in time, the fact that they put on a classic (1/97) and a supposed classic (10/97) is kind of shocking to me.

I'm not a big fan of 3/31/96, it has a lot of high end offense but their timing is a little off and of course the selling leaves alot to be desired.

 

There's actually several other matches in 96 that foreshadowed the "head drop" regression. For obvious reasons, Kawada and Kobashi lose the crowd in yet another one of their 60 minute borefests at 10/96. So out of desperation, they fill the last 20-30 minutes with head drop after head drop to keep the crowd's attention.

 

Kobashi/Taue TC match from 96 is another one where it appears that Kobashi didn't get the reaction he wanted for the Moonsault tease so he busts out a delayed sell of the Nodowa to get the crowd hot again.

 

10/97 is actually a good example of this as well. Misawa is awesome in the match but Kenta's timing is off and he misses a couple of oppurtunities to build heat. The crowd is actually pretty dead when they are about to start the final stretch so Kobashi fires them up again with a series of Half Nelsons before going back to the original plan. I wouldn't call it a classic like most would, still a great match.

 

So in other words:

 

headdrops/delayed selling=cheap heat.

 

Something they needed as the match ups got tired and stale. I think this explains this actions better than "brain damage."

[Guest wildpegasus]

The head drops have nothing to do with Taue regressing less. Kobashi's biggest lingering physical problem has been his knees, which are a result of all the moonsaults he's done. 3/03 proved that he and Misawa are still physically capable to take all the crazy bumps. It's not their physical state that's limiting them from performing, but rather their mental state, as Tom hinted at. They've either forgotten how to make the most of their big moves or just don't care to, and that's been the story for many years now.

But couldn't the head drops be the cause of their mental state? Couldn't have being dropped on your head match after match have left Misawa and Kobashi with some brain damage that could effect their ability to call a match?

It is definitely possable. We just really don't know. Kikuchi got hurt back there in 93 from taking too many backdrops. Really, I don't know how there couldn't be signifigant damage even if Misawa and Kobashi were lucky enough to be part of the group of people that aren't as prone to concussions. (Some people get concussions easier than others)

 

 

RickyChosyu

 

3/03 proved that he and Misawa are still physically capable to take all the crazy bumps. It's not their physical state that's limiting them from performing, but rather their mental state, as Tom hinted at.

 

I read how bad Kobashi and Misawa were banged up after that match and well of course it was very bad. I can't remember all the specifics but I don't think there's any doubt it's more risky now and the extreme punishment is going to have more telling effects on their body. Their bodies are probably starting to lose their ability to recuparate like they were when they younger and they would have aching and nagging injuries from the past so bumping as much as they did in the past as often as they did isn't really possable. Not they still can't pull off someting crazy. It's just that they're going to be paying the price for it more than ever if they try to do the exact same bumps in a match. On the other side of the coin -- I haven't watched much of Kobashi and Misawa lately but I do believe they're not as crazy as they were before so their schedules might be more forgiving now on their bodies and thus they might be able to get a little bit of recovery there as compared to their older days. Still, they're not as young anyomore and their previous injuries have got to be catching up to them.

[Jingus 0]

Oh yeah, headdrops definitely take their toll over the years. Watch Misawa take a german suplex or something similar now: he usually puts his hands down to block part of the bump, something he didn't used to do all the time.

 

Concussions and brain damage are an inescapable part of wrestling; the workers simply take way too many shots to the head than can possibly be healthy, and I've known more than one wrestler who got concussed and was never quite the same since then.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Oh yeah, headdrops definitely take their toll over the years.  Watch Misawa take a german suplex or something similar now: he usually puts his hands down to block part of the bump, something he didn't used to do all the time. 

 

Actually I imagine Misawa does that over his injured neck, not because he's scared of brain damage.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Just in case anyone is interested in getting the 7/10 Tokyo Dome show(I Just ordered it) Highspots.com has it up and it's a 2 tape set.....5 hours.....$15.

[J.B. Buzzkill 0]

Just in case anyone is interested in getting the 7/10 Tokyo Dome show(i Just ordered it) Highspots.com has it up and it's a 2 tape set.....5 hours.....$15.

Just ordered mine.

[Guest Black Tiger]

I'll wait for the NOAH commercial release, they have a tendency to chop off the crap matches and just give us the good stuff.

 

I'm predicting we'll get everything from the GHC Jr Tag Title match and onward.

[Guest ArchoanJB]

I have NOAH IWTV since last week so far from waht I've seen

 

Suigura/Kashin vs. KENTA/Marufuji

 

Fun match, not nearly as good as any of their previous matches as Kashin just doesn't match up. About *** or so

 

Kanemaru vs. Liger

 

Great match, Liger gives ands takes a beating. I have this rated about ***3/4 or ****, gotta watch it again.

 

Jun Akiyama vs. Kenta Kobashi

 

ugh. If your expecting anything but a barely good match your going to be disappointed. This was pretty bad by their standards. They did pretty much nothing for hte first 20 minutes with Kobashi just being superman. Then Akiyama controls for 5 minutes, then Kobashi no sells pretty much everything and wins the match. Awful match by these two standards. 12/23/00 was much much better. *** or so, which still makes it good, but very disapointing.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Jun Akiyama vs. Kenta Kobashi

 

ugh. If your expecting anything but a barely good match your going to be disappointed. This was pretty bad by their standards. They did pretty much nothing for hte first 20 minutes with Kobashi just being superman. Then Akiyama controls for 5 minutes, then Kobashi no sells pretty much everything and wins the match. Awful match by these two standards. 12/23/00 was much much better. *** or so, which still makes it good, but very disapointing.

Meltzer actually reviewed this match(and the shole show in this weeks observer but didn't have star ratings.....allthough I thought that this one would be in the ***1/2 star range. Now, with that being said.....from the reports I read, it made it sound like they were pulling out all the stops and were basically destroying each other. On the other hand though I listened to the PPH (Pro Wrestling Power Hour radio show) last week and they basically bashed the whole show with Akiyama/Kobashi included.....but after I see it myself, I put my own star rating to it.

[Guest ArchoanJB]

Well Meltzer rated Misawa/Kobashi 3/03 ***** and that was far far far far farrr away from that.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

WOW, I couldn't DISAGREE more with the reports here. I thought that Kobashi/Akiyama was an excellent match and it was a little different from what I expected as well. I though Kobashi's selling was some of the best he's done in some time(at least what I have seen.....but I have seen just about his entire run with the title.......or at least his one on one's)and Akiyama really did get over as believable to take the GHC. I think what they were doing is trying to protect Akiyama a bit as I can see these two having another matchup soon enough. The spots in this match were about as dangerous as I have ever seen and honestly it will be a medical miracle if Kobashi isn't in a wheelchair at some point because of all of the shit he has taken in his career. But I would rate this one in the ****1/2 to *****(I will watch this again before I give it 5), but IMO......it is THE MOTY.

[Guest Ray]

Kobashi vs Akiyama was a ver exciting match. I wouldn't call it "great" though, as other matches were just as exciting and didn't have a ton of no-sells at the end.

 

Still, a very, very exciting match.

[J.B. Buzzkill 0]

WOW, I couldn't DISAGREE more with the reports here. I thought that Kobashi/Akiyama was an excellent match and it was a little different from what I expected as well. I though Kobashi's selling was some of the best he's done in some time(at least what I have seen.....but I have seen just about his entire run with the title.......or at least his one on one's)and Akiyama really did get over as believable to take the GHC. I think what they were doing is trying to protect Akiyama a bit as I can see these two having another matchup soon enough. The spots in this match were about as dangerous as I have ever seen and honestly it will be a medical miracle if Kobashi isn't in a wheelchair at some point because of all of the shit he has taken in his career. But I would rate this one in the ****1/2 to *****(I will watch this again before I give it 5), but IMO......it is THE MOTY.

Was it better than 12/23/2000? (Sue me. I fucking loved that match.)

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

WOW, I couldn't DISAGREE more with the reports here.  I thought that Kobashi/Akiyama was an excellent match and it was a little different from what I expected as well.  I though Kobashi's selling was some of the best he's done in some time(at least what I have seen.....but I have seen just about his entire run with the title.......or at least his one on one's)and Akiyama really did get over as believable to take the GHC.  I think what they were doing is trying to protect Akiyama a bit as I can see these two having another matchup soon enough.  The spots in this match were about as dangerous as I have ever seen and honestly it will be a medical miracle if Kobashi isn't in a wheelchair at some point because of all of the shit he has taken in his career.  But I would rate this one in the ****1/2 to *****(I will watch this again before I give it 5), but IMO......it is THE MOTY.

Was it better than 12/23/2000? (Sue me. I fucking loved that match.)

IN a way........yes. I am a huge fan of the 12/23 myself, but that match doesn't have the BIG MATCH feel like this one does. At some points in the match it honestly feels like the only thing that would defeat either guy is if the earth opened up and swallowed them. They both take EXTREME amounts of punishment and the match....plain and simple......is WAY different than the 12/23 one. Kobashi actually does some VERY impressive selling as he basically is dead for a good portion of the match. I would place it WAY above the 3/1/03 Kobashi/Misawa match as far as quality and selling for sure. Not to mention the fact that in the 7/10 the selling totally blows the 3/1/03 away. It actually has been Kobashi's best title defense to date......IMO.

[Guest krazykat72]

I got the Triple DVD from highspots for $15.00 and while the first half of the card is pretty mediocre, the last half is great. I agree with Dynamito putting the match at about ****1/2 or maybe more (I need to re-watch it). it had a really epic feel to it.

For those interested in just getting the really good matches, Bob Barnett is selling his new Japan TV comp with

 

5-3 Am Dragon/Ult Dragon/Kanemoto v Marufuji/Heat/T Mask

4-25 Misawa/Ogawa v Marufuji/KENTA

6-1 Kenta/Marufuji v Suzuki/Marvin

7-10 Kenta/Marufuji v Kashin/Sugiura

Kanemaru v Liger

Misawa/Ogawa v Muto/Kea

Kobashi v Akiyama

 

 

which I'm ordering for the first 3 matches.

 

-Paul Jacobi-