Someone tell me more about this Math Rock thing

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I'm dying to know.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

After some slight research, I've noted Don Caballero as an across the boards recommendation. Would you concur?

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

Yeah. Don Caballero takes prog and metal without sounding like prog or metal, really. Check out Don Caballero 2.

 

As for "math rock," I dunno. Don Caballero aren't really that; before I try to mention some bands, may I ask why the interest?

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I figure I'm pretty good at math, and I haven't written anything cool lately.

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

A lot of math rock is just complex music made by indie nerds. It's usually abrasive/atonal in nature; I know your much-loved Dillinger Escape Plan is an off-shoot of that, but they're basically a metal band. As ear-splittingly noisy as a so-called math rock band like U.S. Maple can be, they're not really loud.

 

Have I mentioned that I once saw DEP in 1999, opening for Mr. Bungle?

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I saw them headline with a smattering of aforementioned indie nerds. I shall be doing so again here at the end of the month. Great live energy. You haven't seen them with Greg Puciato on vocals yet, then...they're so much better now. Now that they've done the "Featuring our new singer" album, they'll probably gel better.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Coincidentally, I'd put DEP into more of a hardcore punk mixed with abraisive indie category, therefore by triangulating their position based on our perspectives, that lands them right in the shoals between metal and indie. Fascinating.

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

I couldn't tell any of the songs apart. Most of the crowd stood there with their arms crossed, while four or five people made a go of getting into it.

 

I've heard some of their new stuff; I admire it more than I like it.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

They're not really about "songs" really..They go from "rip your face off" to "poke your brain with pins" pretty smoothly, and use song breaks more as a convenience issue. They've got a couple stand out tracks, and the EP with Mike Patton is a lot more structured. Otherwise, how could a person really "remember" it anyway?

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

Oh, I understand that, but that's the sort of thing I appreciate more on record than live.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

That's because you're an arm-crosser.

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

I wasn't old enough to buy alcohol at the time, so I had little alternative.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Throw a punch, you limpwrist.

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

Oh, if only I had known you five years ago!

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Sidenote: Indie rockers are easy to fling. There were plenty of you lot at that DEP show I mentioned. There was me, and some sXe hardcore kid having our way with 35-40 skinny fuckers in clothes that were too tight. Like Kinetic, except better-dressed, probably. I mean, really, three or four would get sent packing with a good backswing. If I happen to get way into this mathrock thing, I'm going to play my instrument while kicking the crowd's ass. That'd be a neat trademark, because the music would be symbolic of the asskicking, or vice versa...see, that's a whole different level.

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

Well, yeah, they all weigh under 150, for starters. One of the things I love about indie shows is that it's the only time in my life I feel muscle bound in comparison.

[Red Baron 0]

Math rock/core is nothing more than complexed riffs with off-beat timings, weird break downs, yet some how flows.

 

DEP, SiKth, and lesser extent, Mudvayne are math-core bands.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

That doesn't explain the "math" part of it, though. Mathematical formula is somehow being used to lay out a series of chords...For instance, and I'm sure someone's done this, Pick some random minor chord, and play the first, first, second, and third in the progression to represent the fibonacci sequence or something..

 

I'm just going to find some old college math work and make it into music somehow..

[Steviekick 0]

Do you guys consider Cephallic Carnage to be mathcore?

[Red Baron 0]

AoO, I finally, got around to download some Mike Patton DEP, and I must say, how did I not like this in the first place.

[Red Hot Thumbtack In The Eye 0]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guide...2437903-9226238

 

So you've heard of math-rock, right? Don't know what the title means, but would like to know more about it? Do you have a taste for challenging music? Do you have a masochistic streak (in your tastes)? Do you like things that toy with your intellect? Or, do you simply have a taste for the bizarre? If any, or all of these descriptors fit you, you may have come to the right place.

Math-rock is something of a sub-genre (mostly found in progressive rock - which in itself is a sub-genre, I believe), and it's earliest attributes could be found in rock artists like Frank Zappa, King Crimson and Rush, though the actual technique may have been found in the earliest forms of classical music (mid to late-European, Indian and ancient African music.) Musicians would get creative with time signatures, and use them in mathematical fashion, or in patterns. They could use any kind of pattern, whether it be ascending (e.g. 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 7/4,), descending (e.g. 7/4, 6/4, 5/4, 4/4), random (7/4, 4/4, 6/4, 5/4), in equation-like fashion (e.g. 3/4 + 4/4 = 7/4) or playing multiple numbers simultaneously (e.g. polyrhythms - one instrument may play in say, 5/4, while another may play in 4/4 simultaneously.)

 

Whereas in standard (for lack of a better term) music, time signatures usually are limited to one or two, math-rockers will RARELY stay in one or two time signatures within the song, much less stay in a typical time signature: they will usually plow through several, possibly even changing them after only a single bar. Plus, as mentioned above, they will frequently toy with the numbers in patterns: playing one measure in 4/4, then switching to stuff like 5/4, 6/4, 7/4 (witness the pattern: 4, 5, 6 then 7) and etc, etc. It's usually a structured form of music - even though in general, it would sound nonsensical, disjointed and "weird" - especially to someone who doesn't possess much musical knowledge, and/or has not heard anything "mathematical." (Note: some typical time signatures would be 3/4, 4/4, 6/8 and 12/8. Some odd time signatures would be 5/4, 5/8, 6/4, 7/4, 9/8, 11/8 etc.)

 

Math-Rock Embryo

In this stage, I'll list a couple of artists (out of possible many others) that employed early forms of mathematical attributes in rock music.

 

Frank Zappa: Certainly one of the most daring, original musicians to push rock into weirder territory. Mathematical example: "Toad of the Short Forest" from WEASELS RIPPED MY FLESH (1970) features two drummers: one drummer playing in 7/8, while the other drummer would be playing in 3/4, while the organ player would be playing a measure in 5/8 - simultaneously. That, of course, is known as a polyrhythm, or polymeter. 'Weasels Ripped My Flesh'

 

King Crimson: Another artist (out of quite a few) to push rock into daring territory. Also one of the first rock bands to use polymeters. Mathematical example: in the title track to RED, the band incorporate meters like 5/8, then 6/8, and possibly a 7/8 later (not to mention a 4/4 as well.) Some albums to check out: 'Red' and 'Discipline: 30th Anniversary Editions'

 

Rush: A band that some referred to as the "original math-rockers." Rush would go through a few transformations in their 30+ year career (not unlike King Crimson). Mathematical example: in "Jacob's Ladder," from PERMANENT WAVES (1980) there is an instrumental section that sounds like it's in 13/8, but it could simply be one measure of 6/8, and one of 7/8 (6+7 = 13.) I'm not sure if it's set up as 13/8, or if it's simply two separate measures of 6 and 7. Some albums to check out: 'A Farewell to Kings' and 'Permanent Waves'.

 

Math-Metal

This is probably where it becomes REALLY fun! Heavy artists, employing mathematical techniques into their music? Who knew? Here are some important artists of the math-metal pantheon:

 

Meshuggah: I have to start off with this band, basically because they are my favorite in this heading. Supremely heavy, intense, unique, cerebral and intelligent. Mathematical example: "Closed Eye Visuals" from NOTHING (2002) uses a mathematical equation-like technique that employs multiple time signatures in, and over a designated time signature. This is known as "revolving polymeter" or revolving time signatures. In a few sections, the drummer playing 4/4 (4+4+4+4 = 16 quarter notes), and the rest of the band playing two measures of 5/4, and one of 6/4 (5+5+6 = 16 quarter notes). Albums to check out: 'Destroy Erase Improve', 'Chaosphere' and 'Nothing'

 

Tool: A popular artist that employs mathematical techniques into their hypnotic, vast music. Mathematical example: On "The Grudge," the band plays a riff in 5/8, but later, they double it by playing in 5/4 (5/8 is basically the same signature as a 5/4, but twice it's speed - hence the difference between 4 and 8.) First, they use this polyrhythmically (the guitar riff remains in 5/8, while the bass plays in 5/4), and later, separately (e.g full band plays in 5/4.) In "Lateralis" the chorus moves from a rhythm in 9, then to 8, then to a 7 (employing one for each bar). These aforementioned tracks are from LATERALUS (2001). Albums to check out: 'Aenima' and 'Lateralus'.

 

Mudvayne: "These guys aren't real metal," "These guys are poser metal." Give me a break! Taste is in the eye of the beholder, and it's subjective. I find these guys to be brilliant musicians. Mathematical example: in "Trapped in the Wake of A Dream" the catchy (yes, catchy) chorus is in 17/8 (3+3+3+3+3+2?), while the verses are in 11/8. 17 doesn't necessarily sound as odd as it looks. If you were to say 4/4 was the equivalent of the 8-quarter note count (8 quarter notes = 16 eighths), just add a single eighth (1/8) to it, that's really all it is. To me, it doesn't sound as awkward, as say, an 11/8 rhythm does (at least in this case.)Albums to check out: 'Ld 50' and 'The End of All Things to Come'.

 

Dream Theater: Virtuosic musicians. Everyone knows this already. Mathematical example: in "The Dance of Eternity," off of SCENES FROM A MEMORY (1999), the band plows though numerous time signatures like 13/16, 14/16, 15/16, 17/16 (I believe) and several others. Some albums to check out: 'Awake' and 'Metropolis Part 2: Scenes from a Memory'

 

Other Math-Music

Most of these albums I don't own as of yet, but they still may be of interest to others.

 

Fredrik Thordendal’s Special Defects: 'Sol Niger Within, Version 3.33' - the guitarist of Meshuggah gets to experiment with his already weird guitar techniques. If this guy is from Meshuggah, then you already know to expect some mathematics, along with tons of bizarreness.

 

Liquid Tension Experiment: Side project featuring members of Dream Theater and King Crimson. I usually don't have deep interest in hyper-technical music, but, I can like this stuff when I'm in the right mood for it. Albums: 'Liquid Tension Experiment' and 'Liquid Tension Experiment 2'.

 

Dillinger Escape Plan: a mix of hardcore, punk, math and metal? Album: 'Calculating Infinity'.

 

Gorguts: A death/math-metal band. Album: 'Obscura'

 

Planet X: An instrumental album of jazz-fusion and metal, I guess. Album: 'Moon Babies'.

 

May your math-rock experiences be pleasant ones!

 

---------

 

I think this is about the best description for the music that I've seen, but I'm hardly a font of knowledge since I never got into the whole math thing

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Actually All Music does a decent job of covering the sub genre, I would link it but you have to be registered to use the site now. Worth a look if your a member.

 

Anyways, real math rock is stuff like Chavez and Polvo. Couldn't tell you alot about them since I never got into them that much.

 

I do however like Braid, who despite leaning more towards the Chicago post punk sound, actually dabble considerably in math rock.

 

Though they aren't really labeled math rock themselves, so called "post-rock" band Slint are very influential to math rock as well as mathcore.

 

I'm not sure if DEP list Slint as an official influence but some of their slower passages, especially the ones in "The Running Board" sound identical to Slint.

 

Botch, which I'm surprised haven't been mentioned yet, is another great mathrock influenced hardcore band. Much more cleaner melodies and gutiar work than DEP, though as result their not nearly as insane. David Knudson is one of the most criminally underrated gutiarist alive. Their song "Swimming the Channel vs. Driving the Chunnel" also suspiciously sounds very similar to Slint's work on Spiderland.

 

Of course, I would strongly recommened Botch to DEP fans and also Slint to mathcore fans. Slint aren't really heavy but their similar in more sublime ways.

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

I wouldn't suggest Agent check out any of the bands allmusic lists as math rock. That has nothing to do with my feelings towards them, however.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I wouldn't suggest Agent check out any of the bands allmusic lists as math rock. That has nothing to do with my feelings towards them, however.

That's what math rock pretty much is though, unless your confusing it with the math rock influenced hardcore or "matchcore" as it's put. I would still recommend Slint.

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

I know. I'm just saying Agent probably wouldn't go for any of those bands.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

I don't like nothin.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

AoO, I finally, got around to download some Mike Patton DEP, and I must say, how did I not like this in the first place.

I don't know what the hell your problem was there, especially as a metal listener, AND a guitar work snob. Miss Machine is even better, because Patton's not there to kill the rest of the band.

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

You're never gonna like any indie rock, dude. It's okay.

[PLAGIARISM! 0]

The square root of the chorus over X gives you the middle 8 which when multiplied by pi equals the xylophone solo.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Do you guys consider Cephallic Carnage to be mathcore?

They're stoners playing grindcore.