The Keltner List

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

 

No. This is the toughest standard, and anyone who answers "yes" is probably a Hall of Famer. Its not meant to analyze a single season. As part of a critique of Barry Bonds, Total Baseball created a list of the top five players of each decade. I am going to start using that as a reference, recognizing that most of the players I analyze are not on that list.

 

2. Was he the best player on his team?

 

No. He was probably the second best player on the Braves in the 1960s, behind Hank Aaron. He was also the best player on the St. Louis Cardinals in 1971.

 

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

 

Yes. From 1965-66, Torre was the best catcher in baseball. Before then, he was surpassed by Elston Howard, and afterwards, by Bill Freehan and then Johnny Bench.

 

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

 

None of Torre's teams ever made the postseason, but the 1971 and '73 Cardinals stayed close. Torre won an MVP for the '71 Cardinals.

 

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

 

Not really. Torre was out of baseball by 36.

 

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

 

No, that honor still goes to Ron Santo.

 

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

 

Two of Torre's ten most similar players are in the Hall, but none are considered truly similar. Oddly, most of Torre's comps are not catchers.

 

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

 

Not quite. Torre scores 12 on the Black Ink test and 71 on the Gray Ink test. He does meet 40.1% of HOF standards.

 

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

 

None apparent.

 

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

 

It is either Torre or Ted Simmons. There is a strong case that Torre is the best eligible catcher.

 

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

 

Torre won an MVP in 1971, and finished fifth in 1964.

 

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

 

Torre played in nine All-Star games, a good total.

 

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

 

Yes.

 

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

 

None apparent.

 

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

 

Yes. Torre, especially in his managerial days, is considered a team leader and a class act.

 

Conclusion: In 1995, Bill James wrote that Joe Torre should be in the Hall of Fame. Since then, Torre has won four World Series, six League championships, and seven division titles as manager as the New York Yankees. Torre was also a top player throughout the 1960s. When you take everything into account at this point, Torre is a Hall of Fame lock.

[Slayer 0]

I don't get it. Are you considering Torre the player or Torre the manager?

 

I've never heard anything about Torre the player, but Torre the manager is a lock

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Torre the player. Torre the manager is what will get him into the Hall.

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

Could they put him in as both?

[treble 0]

Something that might be interesting, once you get around to finishing all the names already in your hat, might be to look at someone who is a lock for the Hall at an earlier point in their career (Bonds just as a Pirate or Clemens just as a Red Sox, for example).

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Could they put him in as both?

Absolutely. Its a gray area for Hall voters, but the precident is there with such players as Frank Chance. You do have to excel at some area. Dusty Baker, for example, is not likely to make the Hall.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Player/Manager was common place in the early years of the game.

 

Al mentioned Frank Chance. Who is probably more deserving of making it has a manager than player. Another player/manager from the same time period is Fred Clarke. He was an excellent player, and one the best managers of is era. Arguably HOF worthy, in that category.