This Might Get Ugly

[Guest MikeSC]

It's also classless and amateurish to invite somebody onto a show to discuss one topic (BTW, her book is fascinating) and ambush them with something completely different.

              -=Mike

Hi there, would you like to appear on our debate show? You'll get promotion for your book if you appear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gee, do you expect to get involved in a debate if you go on the show? Likely so, and as Rob said, she started it.

Read the transcript.

 

HE brought up SVBT. Not her.

 

HE railroaded her. She knows about as much about them as you --- namely, not very much.

 

But, basic reading is a bit much to ask of you.

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Hey, if you're going to start throwing their accusations around (i.e. shrapnel,) you better be able to back them up.

 

This is why I don't bring up kooky Moore conspiracies that I don't know about and doubt the validity of.

[Guest MikeSC]

Hey, if you're going to start throwing their accusations around (i.e. shrapnel,) you better be able to back them up.

 

This is why I don't bring up kooky Moore conspiracies that I don't know about and doubt the validity of.

Doctor that threated and commanding officer have both signed affidavits saying that it appeared to them to be sharpnel.

 

Not good enough for you, though, huh?

-=Mike

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Read the transcript.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5765243/

 

HE brought up Svb script:

 

BROWN: He volunteered twice. He volunteered twice in Vietnam. He literally got shot. There‘s no question about any of those things. So what else is there to discuss? How much he got shot, how deep, how much shrapnel?

 

MALKIN: Well, yes. Why don‘t people ask him more specific questions about the shrapnel in his leg. They are legitimate questions about whether or not it was a self-inflicted wound.

 

MATTHEWS: What do you mean by self-inflicted? Are you saying he shot himself on purpose? Is that what you‘re saying?

 

MALKIN: Did you read the book...

 

The conversation basically went like this

 

Matthews mentioned some issues from earlier. Willie Horton gets mentioned. Malkin makes a false claim about Gore and Horton. We sorta go back to the "Bush asking them" thing. Malkin mentions Thurlow. They talk about Massachusetts politics. Malkin claims it's softball. Malkin claims that Kerry can't take the heat. Brown mentions Kerry's records. The quoted part. Malkin is the first to mention the book.

 

But, basic reading is a bit much to ask of you.

 

*chuckles*

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

I don't know why people are all shocked over this. Chris Matthews is the Stephen A. Smith of political commentary.

[Guest MikeSC]

Read the transcript.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5765243/

 

HE brought up Svb script:

 

BROWN: He volunteered twice. He volunteered twice in Vietnam. He literally got shot. There‘s no question about any of those things. So what else is there to discuss? How much he got shot, how deep, how much shrapnel?

 

MALKIN: Well, yes. Why don‘t people ask him more specific questions about the shrapnel in his leg. They are legitimate questions about whether or not it was a self-inflicted wound.

 

MATTHEWS: What do you mean by self-inflicted? Are you saying he shot himself on purpose? Is that what you‘re saying?

 

MALKIN: Did you read the book...

Read the FIRST thing he asked her --- namely:

What do you make of the president‘s—this campaign being run on behalf of the president, if not officially to try destroy John Kerry‘s war record?

So, again, HE brought the entire controversy up. Not Michelle.

Matthews mentioned some issues from earlier. Willie Horton gets mentioned. Malkin makes a false claim about Gore and Horton. We sorta go back to the "Bush asking them" thing. Malkin mentions Thurlow. They talk about Massachusetts politics. Malkin claims it's softball. Malkin claims that Kerry can't take the heat. Brown mentions Kerry's records. The quoted part. Malkin is the first to mention the book.

It's like talking to a wall.

 

SHE...WAS...NOT...THERE...TO...DISCUSS...THIS...AT...ALL.

 

And WHO brought up Horton? Why, it was Matthews. And, hate to break it to you, Gore DID bring up Horton in the Dem primaries that year. Brown brought up the shrapnel in his leg and she mentioned something in the book that, if Matthews had done the requisite five seconds of research, he would've asked THURLOW about -- instead of two people who know shit about it.

 

And, Matthews asked if MA politics was softball. Malkin simply agreed. Kerry can't take the heat --- which he CLEARLY cannot --- of a serious campaign.

-=Mike

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Read the FIRST thing he asked her --- namely:

What do you make of the president‘s—this campaign being run on behalf of the president, if not officially to try destroy John Kerry‘s war record?

And then the entire thing went downhill. *shrug* it happens.

 

And WHO brought up Horton? Why, it was Matthews. And, hate to break it to you, Gore DID bring up Horton in the Dem primaries that year.

 

http://slate.msn.com/id/1003919/

 

Introducing Willie Horton to American political discourse would not seem to be something to be proud of. Is it true that Gore did so? And if it is true, was Gore's 1988 campaign guilty of injecting cryptic racist messages into the debate? The answers to these questions are, respectively, yes and no.

 

Gore did ask Dukakis, in a debate right before the 1988 New York primary, about "weekend passes for convicted criminals." Here is how Sidney Blumenthal, now a Clinton White House aide but then a reporter for the Washington Post, wrote it up a few months later:

 

An uncomfortable Dukakis, after dispassionately reciting statistics, conceded that the Massachusetts furlough program for murderers sentenced to life imprisonment had been canceled.

 

The issue did not take for Gore, but the exchange attracted the interest of Jim Pinkerton, the research director for the then flailing Bush campaign. "That's the first time I paid attention," said Pinkerton. "I thought to myself, 'This is incredible' ...It totally fell into our lap."

 

In reviewing this history, it's important to make some crucial distinctions. Gore never mentioned that Horton was black; indeed, he never mentioned Horton by name. He merely drew attention, correctly, to the damaging fact that Dukakis had tolerated a furlough program for especially violent criminals in his state even after a horrific incident strongly suggested this was a bad policy.

 

Hmm.. but.. Al Gore brought up Willie Horton.. right?

 

Brown brought up the shrapnel in his leg and she mentioned something in the book that, if Matthews had done the requisite five seconds of research, he would've asked THURLOW about -- instead of two people who know shit about it.

 

Then again, the entire thing appeared to unhinge Matthews anyways.

 

And, Matthews asked if MA politics was softball. Malkin simply agreed. Kerry can't take the heat --- which he CLEARLY cannot --- of a serious campaign.

 

yeah, a serious campaign, where a group emerges to start questioning what you did 35 years ago.. that Kerry/Weld campaign was nothing.

 

John Kerry is unfortunately ending up like the Fonz and losing his cool. Ehhhhh.

[Guest Wildbomb 4:20]

I figured I'd put my two cents in while the iron's hot...

 

From Everyone's Favorite Local Right-Wing Rag...

 

WASHINGTON - Military records back John Kerry's account of his service in Vietnam and have backed at least two of his accusers into a corner.

Kerry this week was forced to defend himself against accusations by a group of fellow Navy veterans of Vietnam that he was a liar and a coward. The charges were made in a book and in an attack ad that polls show have chipped away at Kerry's standing with veterans in three critical states - West Virginia, Wisconsin and Ohio.

 

The long-ago Vietnam War has suddenly become a central issue in the presidential campaign. The attacks by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have called into account Kerry's conduct during the war, when he volunteered for one of the most dangerous duties - the so-called Brown Water Navy, which regularly penetrated Viet Cong-controlled territory via the maze of waterways in the sodden Mekong Delta.

 

Although the 15 veterans featured in the attack ad all state "I served with John Kerry," none of them served on the same boat with him. Those who did, such as retired Chief Petty Officer Del Sandusky, 60, of Clearwater, Fla., praise Kerry for his leadership and credit him with keeping them alive to make it home.

 

Kerry has said that members of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth lied when they said he inflated his role in various combat actions in the Mekong Delta in 1968 and 1969 and had manipulated the award of three Purple Heart medals for wounds and Bronze and Silver Star medals for valor in combat.

 

 

Records rebut charges

Kerry released a stack of his military records - including after-action reports, citations for his medals, boat battle damage reports and his officer efficiency reports. These records - and the military records of at least one of his accusers - cast serious doubt on some of the more inflammatory charges raised by the group.

It didn't help the cause of the Swift Boat Veterans group that some of them, including their leader, retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffman, were on the record praising Kerry for his service in Vietnam.

 

Kerry's commanding officer in Vietnam, George Elliott, said in an attack ad: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."

 

But during the Vietnam War, Elliott recommended Kerry for the Silver and Bronze Star medals for valor in combat and gave him the highest possible praise in his officer efficiency reports.

 

Another critic, Larry Thurlow, a fellow Swift boat commander in the Mekong Delta in 1969, disputed Kerry's claim that his boat and others in the five-boat patrol came under enemy fire during a March 13, 1969, mission that earned Kerry a Bronze Star.

 

Thurlow said that although one of the Swift boats was disabled by a mine explosion, there was no enemy fire from shore, as Kerry and others testified, and that Kerry's account was "a total fabrication."

 

 

Enemy fire noted

However, a citation for the Bronze Star with valor awarded to Thurlow for that same mission stated that his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which (Thurlow) completely ignored" while he provided assistance to the damaged Swift boat and the wounded aboard.

His account was further called into question by a battle damage assessment report on another Swift boat, PCF-51, involved in the March 13 action. The report listed three .30-caliber bullet holes in the superstructure of the 50-foot patrol boat.

 

The Swift boat veterans also have cast doubt on Kerry's account that a second mine explosion damaged his boat, PCF-94, and blew an Army Special Forces officer, Jim Rassmann, overboard. Kerry's Bronze Star was awarded for his rescue of Rassmann, who credited Kerry with saving his life.

 

Among the records was a battle damage report filed the following day, March 14, which stated that PCF-94 had three windows blown out, radios and radar inoperable, the boat's auxiliary generator inoperable, screws curled and chipped, aft helm steerage control not working.

 

Just a thought.

 

--Ryan

[Jobber of the Week 0]

SHE...WAS...NOT...THERE...TO...DISCUSS...THIS...AT...ALL.

It's a debate show. Get used to it.

 

And besides, there's a difference between that question and then bringing up the idea that he shot himself. And once you bring that up, you are in essence opening yourself up for the can of worms that follows.

[Guest MikeSC]

Read the FIRST thing he asked her --- namely:

What do you make of the president‘s—this campaign being run on behalf of the president, if not officially to try destroy John Kerry‘s war record?

And then the entire thing went downhill. *shrug* it happens.

So, you were wrong about that.

And WHO brought up Horton? Why, it was Matthews. And, hate to break it to you, Gore DID bring up Horton in the Dem primaries that year.

 

http://slate.msn.com/id/1003919/

 

Introducing Willie Horton to American political discourse would not seem to be something to be proud of. Is it true that Gore did so? And if it is true, was Gore's 1988 campaign guilty of injecting cryptic racist messages into the debate? The answers to these questions are, respectively, yes and no.

 

Gore did ask Dukakis, in a debate right before the 1988 New York primary, about "weekend passes for convicted criminals." Here is how Sidney Blumenthal, now a Clinton White House aide but then a reporter for the Washington Post, wrote it up a few months later:

 

An uncomfortable Dukakis, after dispassionately reciting statistics, conceded that the Massachusetts furlough program for murderers sentenced to life imprisonment had been canceled.

 

The issue did not take for Gore, but the exchange attracted the interest of Jim Pinkerton, the research director for the then flailing Bush campaign. "That's the first time I paid attention," said Pinkerton. "I thought to myself, 'This is incredible' ...It totally fell into our lap."

 

In reviewing this history, it's important to make some crucial distinctions. Gore never mentioned that Horton was black; indeed, he never mentioned Horton by name. He merely drew attention, correctly, to the damaging fact that Dukakis had tolerated a furlough program for especially violent criminals in his state even after a horrific incident strongly suggested this was a bad policy.

 

Hmm.. but.. Al Gore brought up Willie Horton.. right?

Yup, he did. Gore mentioned the furlough program. Hate to break it to you, but doing even RUDIMENTARY research on it would have brought up the Horton case, which was WIDELY and heavily reported in MA when it happened. It's not like this was an obscure story. Bush's people clearly didn't even KNOW about the furlough program. Thus, Gore did, in fact, bring it all up.

 

For what it's worth, Bush I didn't mention his race either. Bush I simply criticized the fucking idiotic policy.

Brown brought up the shrapnel in his leg and she mentioned something in the book that, if Matthews had done the requisite five seconds of research, he would've asked THURLOW about -- instead of two people who know shit about it.

Then again, the entire thing appeared to unhinge Matthews anyways.

Then why bash Malkin because Matthews is an idiot?

And, Matthews asked if MA politics was softball. Malkin simply agreed. Kerry can't take the heat --- which he CLEARLY cannot --- of a serious campaign.

yeah, a serious campaign, where a group emerges to start questioning what you did 35 years ago.. that Kerry/Weld campaign was nothing.

Yup. I mean, lord knows BUSH hasn't received questions about HIS service in spite of NO evidence, whatsoever, to indicate ANYTHING --- including NOBODY ever saying he went AWOL --- well, outside of McAuliffe.

John Kerry is unfortunately ending up like the Fonz and losing his cool. Ehhhhh.

He's melting down. When he loses, you'll point to this also.

It's a debate show. Get used to it.

And besides, there's a difference between that question and then bringing up the idea that he shot himself. And once you bring that up, you are in essence opening yourself up for the can of worms that follows.

Ah, beautiful. It's HER fault for not brushing up on EVERY POSSIBLE ISSUE under the sun, JUST IN CASE he wanted to mention it.

 

Yup, that sounds fair.

 

Brown mentioned shrapnel. Malkin responded to it by what the book flat-out states (repeatedly, mind you).

-=Mike

-=Mike

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Yup, he did. Gore mentioned the furlough program.

Yep. Care to mention any specific quotes mentioning Horton by name?

 

Hate to break it to you, but doing even RUDIMENTARY research on it would have brought up the Horton case, which was WIDELY and heavily reported in MA when it happened.

 

So.. you do have proof that he mentioned Horton, right?

 

It's not like this was an obscure story. Bush's people clearly didn't even KNOW about the furlough program. Thus, Gore did, in fact, bring it all up.

 

And using the Mike Math. Furlough Program = Willie Horton.

 

For what it's worth, Bush I didn't mention his race either. Bush I simply criticized the fucking idiotic policy.

 

And for reference, the ad is here http://livingroomcandidate.movingimage.us/index.php and the controversy with some is more in what's implied, not what's said.

 

But then again, with 16 years to really think about it, it's pretty obvious that the furlough program was a pretty bad idea. At least in the case of first degree murderers.

 

Then why bash Malkin because Matthews is an idiot?

 

I wouldn't exactly say idiot, loud is a good word for Matthews. He's not exactly adored by the left either.

 

Yup. I mean, lord knows BUSH hasn't received questions about HIS service in spite of NO evidence, whatsoever, to indicate ANYTHING --- including NOBODY ever saying he went AWOL --- well, outside of McAuliffe.

 

I've heard all sorts of things with that. *shrug*

 

I don't care too much either way.

 

He's melting down. When he loses, you'll point to this also.

 

There's nothing to suggest a meltdown. But maybe i'm being biased by waiting for more than a few days to declare a 'meltdown'

[Guest MikeSC]

Yup, he did. Gore mentioned the furlough program.

Yep. Care to mention any specific quotes mentioning Horton by name?

Care to mention when Bush I mentioned him by name? The only ad EVER dealing with the program from the Bush people was "Revolving Doors", which didn't mention names.

Hate to break it to you, but doing even RUDIMENTARY research on it would have brought up the Horton case, which was WIDELY and heavily reported in MA when it happened.

So.. you do have proof that he mentioned Horton, right?

He mentioned a program the conservatives weren't even aware of.

 

If they do even five seconds of research, Horton's name pops up.

 

Of course, Bush never uttered his name...

It's not like this was an obscure story. Bush's people clearly didn't even KNOW about the furlough program. Thus, Gore did, in fact, bring it all up.

And using the Mike Math. Furlough Program = Willie Horton.

Hmm, only the most prominent problem with the system ever. Yup, NO reason ANYBODY would name him.

 

Of course, the people naming him weren't Bush or his people...

For what it's worth, Bush I didn't mention his race either. Bush I simply criticized the fucking idiotic policy.

And for reference, the ad is here http://livingroomcandidate.movingimage.us/index.php and the controversy with some is more in what's implied, not what's said.

 

But then again, with 16 years to really think about it, it's pretty obvious that the furlough program was a pretty bad idea. At least in the case of first degree murderers.

Or, in simple terms, the controversy is what you're READING INTO the ad, not what is said.

 

The ad features NO names, NO specific incidents --- just facts and numbers.

 

Unless you mean the ad that Bush DIDN'T make on the bottom of the page --- but you couldn't mean that one, could you? You know, the one that he had NO part of?

 

Bush simply commented that the policy was fucking idiotic and showed a HUGE problem with Dukakis (who fought it for 12 years and didn't FINALLY agree to abolish it during that campaign --- hell, Dukakis could have at least said that a Republican Governor initially passed the bill).

Then why bash Malkin because Matthews is an idiot?

I wouldn't exactly say idiot, loud is a good word for Matthews. He's not exactly adored by the left either.

He's an idiot. O'Reilly sans the erudition.

He's melting down. When he loses, you'll point to this also.

There's nothing to suggest a meltdown. But maybe i'm being biased by waiting for more than a few days to declare a 'meltdown'

Not biased. Just slow on the uptake.

-=Mike