The Bret Hart Appreciation Thread

[Guest Loss]

One dimensional? Are you crazy? Working the shoot style, the US pro style and the Japanese style. Bret or Shawn never mastered anything outside of the US style.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Calling Vader one-dimensional is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. As Loss said, Vader mastered a number of diferent styles, and he had classic matches in each of those styles. Vader is also the best big man of the modern era, so I don't see how anyone can seriously call him one-dimensional.

[2GOLD 0]

Vader became One Dimensional for awhile, because the WWF forced him too. Just like they made him lose the mask and proceeded to fumble away one of the greatest heels in wrestling.

 

Vader is easily one of the best and could possibly be the greatest big man in wrestling history. I certainly have him top two of that list.

[Guest Rrrsh]

One dimensional? Are you crazy? Working the shoot style, the US pro style and the Japanese style. Bret or Shawn never mastered anything outside of the US style.

We are talking about during that time. He was working NA style, and within that style, he could only brawl. Shawn and Bret could brawl, have a technical match and have a faced paced match. Plus they can both work Face and heel very well. Vader, then, wasn't a good face.

[Guest shis]

He is indeed one of the best technical wrestlers in wwe history.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

I can't believe we are having a dicussion bout who is the best of our era and Benoit's name never gets mentioned. This is the Smartmarks fourm right?

 

Anyways, First of all...I always saw Bret and Shawn as near Equals. It's really almost impossible say one was better then the other because they each have an impressive catalouge of tremendous matches and were also each tremendous performers. I believe if anything, that's ultimately what sets Shawn above Bret. Performence.

 

I'm not talking about how Shawn was a superior interview or promoer but how they performed in the ring. Every Shawn match comes off feeling like a Broadway play and he sucks in the crowd and plays to the crowd as good as anyone and I believe he's a prototype of "the right way to use the crowd", Bret on the other hand wasn't as much a performer which admitedly wasn't his style or his persona.

 

One strong asset I like in Shawn is this, Variety. Most of Bret's matches along with Flair and Austin felt usually similar, while shawn could easily work a brawl and then a mat match then a high impact high risk match. I agree with the comment eariler about how Shawn made the little moves like a Elbow drop seem so signifanct.

 

I really think it's a shame we really have to debate "Who was better". I believe they are each among the greatest in this industry and each deserve our respects, maybe not for outside the ring antics but for the work they gave us.

[Guest Loss]

One dimensional? Are you crazy? Working the shoot style, the US pro style and the Japanese style. Bret or Shawn never mastered anything outside of the US style.

We are talking about during that time. He was working NA style, and within that style, he could only brawl. Shawn and Bret could brawl, have a technical match and have a faced paced match. Plus they can both work Face and heel very well. Vader, then, wasn't a good face.

I've never seen Shawn work the mat particularly well. Just because he tends to sit in a headlock for the first 10 minutes of most of his long matches doesn't mean what he's doing is good.

 

I think Bret and Vader could be argued, and I noticed you said "during that time", but "during that time", Vader was doubling in WCW and UWFI. Vader was an excellent brawler -- better than Bret or Shawn, wrestled plenty of PROPERLY paced matches (not just fast for fast's sake) and I don't know what type of "technical" match you're talking about, as Vader was doing more advanced stuff in UWFI and WCW than Shawn ever did in his career. Shawn was part of some great matches, and I'm not trying to downplay him at all, but he was also working an extremely easy and basic WWF style and Vader was doing something above and beyond that.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Seems like every Shawn Michaels match WWF stuck on tape from 1992-1993 of his were pretty boring. He only had a handful of stand out matches in those two years, and were with Bret Hart and Marty Jannetty, two people that were either very good workers or were very familiar with how to work a great match with Michaels.

 

On Coliseum Videos (and even on regular shows), Michaels had some pretty boring matches with everyone. Of course, it doesn't help most of the people he wrestled consisted of Tatanka, JTTS Virgil, Kamala, Jim Duggan, and Crush, but still, Michaels had a hard time getting anything out of a sub-par worker at the time. It wasn't until he got the "Big pushes" where he started busting his ass every night and over-selling like his name was Curt Hennig.

 

Bret Hart was no magician himself, as he couldn't possibly carry poor workers to good wrestling matches on a regular basis. Maybe in a brawl or "hardcore" enviroment, that would be different, but in a straight up match in 1992-1993 he's fought some pretty bad matches with people like Barry Darsow, Adam Bomb, Kamala (jesus he sucked), The Barbarian (he was OK, but was B-O-R-I-N-G), Skinner (way past his prime), The Berzerker and pretty much any heel that had a stupid gimmick.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Bret Hart carried a shitty Shawn Michaels to a good match at Survivor Series 1992.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Bret Hart carried a shitty Shawn Michaels to a good match at Survivor Series 1992.

Shawn was far from Shitty there, he just wasn't great yet. Mamoth diffrence.

[Guest Rrrsh]

One dimensional? Are you crazy? Working the shoot style, the US pro style and the Japanese style. Bret or Shawn never mastered anything outside of the US style.

We are talking about during that time. He was working NA style, and within that style, he could only brawl. Shawn and Bret could brawl, have a technical match and have a faced paced match. Plus they can both work Face and heel very well. Vader, then, wasn't a good face.

I've never seen Shawn work the mat particularly well. Just because he tends to sit in a headlock for the first 10 minutes of most of his long matches doesn't mean what he's doing is good.

 

I think Bret and Vader could be argued, and I noticed you said "during that time", but "during that time", Vader was doubling in WCW and UWFI. Vader was an excellent brawler -- better than Bret or Shawn, wrestled plenty of PROPERLY paced matches (not just fast for fast's sake) and I don't know what type of "technical" match you're talking about, as Vader was doing more advanced stuff in UWFI and WCW than Shawn ever did in his career. Shawn was part of some great matches, and I'm not trying to downplay him at all, but he was also working an extremely easy and basic WWF style and Vader was doing something above and beyond that.

Shawns matches with Bret were very technically sound. Plus Shawn's macthes with Mandkind and Deisel in 97 were awesome, and those were brawls.

 

Shawn and Bret can both be beaten on and beating people up. Vader blows at selling, therefor is always in control of the matches. There agian his his lack of variety in his matches.

 

Why I brought up faced paced match is that Shawn and Bret can both very their pace for matches. Vader just Cant wrestle a fast paced match. Its a limit he has.

 

Bottom line, there is just too much Vade didnt do well back then (Play Face, sell to make himself vunrable, Change his pace) to be considered teh best.

[Guest LooneyTune]

...Vader's aggression is all he needs. THAT WAS HIS GIMMICK. An ass kicking monster who couldn't be stopped. Why do you think McMahon totally ruined him? He nuetered Vader of ANYTHING remotely interesting and made him ball-less heel #583483.

 

Ricky Steamboat never worked heel and is considered one of the greatest workers ever, so being a heel and face has absolutely nothing to do with greatness, it's how well you excell at your role.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Ricky Steamboat was never turned heel, so I can't use that agiants him.

 

And being a no selling monster is fine for a gimmick. He was great at it, but the essance of the gimmick hindeers him from being the best wrestler in an era.

 

No matter who does it, The Undertaker gimmick will never produce a great wrestler. Its the way it goes.

[Guest nWoCHRISnWo]

Punching Vince McMahon out.

 

Giving us some, IMO, great and very underrated promos.

 

I also love how his matches had an epic feeling to them. Not too many wrestlers have that. And while some people have mentioned that Bret's matches are all too similar, I'll say that I like how his matches were DIFFERENT. Of most of his big matches, they're all much different from eachother and I can watch them back-to-back without feeling like I just saw the same performance.

[Guest krazykat72]

Seems like every Shawn Michaels match WWF stuck on tape from 1992-1993 of his were pretty boring. He only had a handful of stand out matches in those two years, and were with Bret Hart and Marty Jannetty, two people that were either very good workers or were very familiar with how to work a great match with Michaels.

 

On Coliseum Videos (and even on regular shows), Michaels had some pretty boring matches with everyone. Of course, it doesn't help most of the people he wrestled consisted of Tatanka, JTTS Virgil, Kamala, Jim Duggan, and Crush, but still, Michaels had a hard time getting anything out of a sub-par worker at the time. It wasn't until he got the "Big pushes" where he started busting his ass every night and over-selling like his name was Curt Hennig.

 

Bret Hart was no magician himself, as he couldn't possibly carry poor workers to good wrestling matches on a regular basis. Maybe in a brawl or "hardcore" enviroment, that would be different, but in a straight up match in 1992-1993 he's fought some pretty bad matches with people like Barry Darsow, Adam Bomb, Kamala (jesus he sucked), The Barbarian (he was OK, but was B-O-R-I-N-G), Skinner (way past his prime), The Berzerker and pretty much any heel that had a stupid gimmick.

I enjoyed the Virgil matches and I thought he worked well with Tatanka too.

There's also a Bret/Shawn match floating around where Shawn is working his ass off while Bret's kind of phoning it in. Sherri's his manager at the time. It ends up being pretty good and goes about 13 minutes. I forget which tape it's on though.

Finish is a roll up by Hart if anyone knows.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[MillenniumMan831 0]

IIRC, it's on Rampage 1992. I believe Sherri/Shawn collided to set up the finish.

[Guest Loss]

Shawns matches with Bret were very technically sound.

How so? Is laying around on the mat and counting the stars in the sky considered technical wrestling?

 

Define technical wrestling. Is it mat wrestling? If so, it's definitely not either Bret or Shawn's strong point. Benoit, Guerrero and even Angle are better in this area than both. Rudo and I have argued this before, but "technical" wrestling is a kayfabe term.

 

Plus Shawn's macthes with Mandkind and Deisel in 97 were awesome, and those were brawls.

 

Vader worked smarter, better matches that held up far better over time against Sting and Cactus than either of the Shawn matches you mentioned.

 

Shawn and Bret can both be beaten on and beating people up. Vader blows at selling, therefor is always in control of the matches. There agian his his lack of variety in his matches.

 

That is not a lack of variety. You're saying Vader should have played the underdog? That would have been really bad match layout, and it wouldn't have led to a good match, simply because he's so much bigger than his opponents typically. A great worker isn't a great worker because he can play any role, he's a great worker because he can master the role he does play. Vader did that quite nicely. The fact that he never played Ricky Morton is a feather in his hat.

 

Why I brought up faced paced match is that Shawn and Bret can both very their pace for matches. Vader just Cant wrestle a fast paced match. Its a limit he has.

 

Vader is capable of taking the skills he has and adapting them to any environment and producing a great match in any setting. That's a skill neither Bret nor Shawn ever had, as Bret wasn't all too impressive when working in NJPW and Shawn has never worked anything except a bastardized heavyweight style and the face-in-peril Southern tags.

 

Bottom line, there is just too much Vade didnt do well back then (Play Face, sell to make himself vunrable, Change his pace) to be considered teh best.

 

Vader was never in a position where he should have played the face in peril. Again, a great worker does what is needed of him in the situation at hand. Vader was certainly able to adapt, probably as well as anyone ever has been honestly, and to accuse him of being one-dimensional because he was never the underdog babyface blows my mind.

[Guest krazykat72]

Plus Shawn's macthes with Mandkind and Deisel in 97 were awesome, and those were brawls.

 

Vader worked smarter, better matches that held up far better over time against Sting and Cactus than either of the Shawn matches you mentioned.

 

The Cactus matches really don't hold up well at all, particularly the Halloween Havoc match. The Michaels/Foley match on the other hand is still really, really impressive today.

I actually think Michaels/Nash holds up very well, having watched the Mania XI and Good Friends matches last week.

 

Bret had a hell of a match with Sayama on his shoot tape circa 1982, but I haven't seen too much more of his NJPW stuff to judge him. I can say I haven't been blown away by a lot of the Stampede stuff I've seen him in though.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I just watched the Bret v Yoko cage match off the Inside The WWF tape, and I'd rate that ****. It was a very good cage match, and I thought Bret was very smart in working around Yoko's limitations in this one.

[Jericholic82 0]

I was at a WWF house show in white plains, NY in june of 93 and they had a pretty good yoko/bret regular match for the wwf title. I was on the edge of my seat, as a young mark who had no thought of hey this aint televised so nothing will happen

 

 

 

 

 

as for my Bret Fandom

 

 

I became a wrestling fan by watching survivor series 90. I remember Breat first a a tag wrestler. in 1991 as I became more of a fan, bret was rising to his first ic title . When he beat Mr Perfect at ss91 I was jumping up and down.

 

Breat was my fav wrestler, not because he was an excellent "worker" or had great matches, but because he was a true good guy wrestler who did everything for the fans. It sounds corny but when you are a young mark, thats all that matters,

 

I remember going crazy when I heard on superstars that bret had beaten flair for the wwf title.

 

and I was so nervous for him at wm 9, when I juct couldnt see him beating the monster yokozuna. then they go out and have a pretty good match, and it looks like bret might actually beat him. he lost and I was crushed but somewhat happy that hogan stuck up for him and won the title, though still sad for Bret

 

 

 

I remained a Bret fan from then on, but in 95 I stared liking Shawn and Diesel alot more, even rooting for HBK to beat my hero at wm 12-even though It was tough.

 

 

 

in 97 he rejuvenated his career with the hart foundation angle and I was thoroughly entertained by all this (although personally I found it offensive that he refused to turn heel in canada- his turn justification was he hated america-hell canadaians would have cheered him no matter what cuz they have tons of national pride)

 

 

about montreal, I actually side with Vince on this one, though I wish he would have handled it better

 

But I dont think that Bret would have betrayed him and went on nitro with the belt,even if he was mad about leaving at the time, because of his respect for the company that made him a star

 

 

 

I last saw Bret live at the WWA ppv in vegas.

 

 

We need a dvd set STAT

[Guest Rrrsh]

Vader has faced guy his size before and still couldn't fucking sell, so don't give me that bullshit that "he is so much bigger". Plus when lost to HBK at Summerslam, he didnt lose in a fluke fashion. He lost to the supposed better man. But he still sold like shit and made the match garbage because he could never make me think he was in trouble. It make the whole match look bad.

 

And, those Cactus matches are VERY boring and predictable now after the fact. No flow, lots of dead spots. Shawns matches that I mentioned smokes them.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Flair / Vader smokes Michaels / Nash, nuff said.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Since when is the unstopable monster who destroyed Michaels on TV twice leading up to Summerslam suppose to sell for a 200 pound twig like Michaels?

[Guest krazykat72]

Flair / Vader smokes Michaels / Nash, nuff said.

Flair/Vader is absolutely horrid compared to Michaels/Nash.

I don't always agree with jdw about things, but he wrote up a *great*

look at the best wcw matches of the 90's here

http://www.deathvalleydriver.com/Bestof90s/jdwwcwballot.html

 

Looking back, it's really no contest.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest Loss]

Vader has faced guy his size before and still couldn't fucking sell, so don't give me that bullshit that "he is so much bigger". Plus when lost to HBK at Summerslam, he didnt lose in a fluke fashion. He lost to the supposed better man. But he still sold like shit and made the match garbage because he could never make me think he was in trouble. It make the whole match look bad.

 

And, those Cactus matches are VERY boring and predictable now after the fact. No flow, lots of dead spots. Shawns matches that I mentioned smokes them.

Vader has never played that role. You're criticizing his selling when his job was to go out there and play the monster heel. That makes no sense. If anything, you should judge him on his offense and the focus of his work according to the role he's playing.

 

At Summerslam, you had a very game Vader facing a Shawn that wasn't all that interested in making him look good. The same story played itself out on house shows all over the country at the time.

[Guest LooneyTune]

You have to remember HBK and Nash are best of friends. If they CAN'T have a great match, then something is wrong.

 

Flair/Vader I doubt had that kind of relationship (if any), and the fact that Flair has never even wrestled Vader before (in TV land) makes it that much better.

 

Besides, if we're talking about the IYH match, don't compare are garbage brawl to an actual wrestling match. Two different types of matches with two completely different matches.

 

Diesel - shitiest wrestler on earth

HBK - injury faking and injury no-selling wonder

 

Flair - Wrestling technician and comedian

Vader - Super Monster Heel

[Guest JMA]

Bret's heel turn promo in '97 and the promo where he reconciled with Owen and Davey Boy are definitely two of my favorite Bret Hart moments.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Diesel - shitiest wrestler on earth

HBK - injury faking and injury no-selling wonder

 

Flair - Wrestling technician and comedian

Vader - Super Monster Heel

That proves how stupidly biased you are.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Vader has faced guy his size before and still couldn't fucking sell, so don't give me that bullshit that "he is so much bigger". Plus when lost to HBK at Summerslam, he didnt lose in a fluke fashion. He lost to the supposed better man. But he still sold like shit and made the match garbage because he could never make me think he was in trouble. It make the whole match look bad.

 

And, those Cactus matches are VERY boring and predictable now after the fact. No flow, lots of dead spots. Shawns matches that I mentioned smokes them.

Vader has never played that role. You're criticizing his selling when his job was to go out there and play the monster heel. That makes no sense. If anything, you should judge him on his offense and the focus of his work according to the role he's playing.

 

At Summerslam, you had a very game Vader facing a Shawn that wasn't all that interested in making him look good. The same story played itself out on house shows all over the country at the time.

I think that a handy excuse. Vader was never portrayed as a monster in that role. He was viewed much like Sid, and major threat, but a guy Shawn could Hang with. And Sid did a WAY better job than Vader did in that situation.