Kerry blames Bin Laden for election loss.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Essentially everytime people try to throw more funding at schools the Teacher's Union always ends up with almost all of the money. I have my doubts about any school programs at this point because the Unions will find some way of getting the money.

[Guest MikeSC]

Even if the money was there the Teachers Unions would suck it all right up and barely any of it would get into the classroom.

 

I don't really get what you mean here. The money wouldn't go to unions, it would go to schools.

Education spending has increased over 40%.

 

It isn't making it to the schools, apparently.

 

SOMEBODY is siphoning it off for their own use.

-=Mike

...That somebody isn't the President...

[Guest Loss]

Like any business, unions exist to make money. They served a purpose at one point before labor laws became as established as they are now. As it stands, in 2004, they hurt employees more than they help them. They act in their own best interests, not those of their members.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Even if the money was there the Teachers Unions would suck it all right up and barely any of it would get into the classroom.

 

I don't really get what you mean here. The money wouldn't go to unions, it would go to schools.

Education spending has increased over 40%.

 

It isn't making it to the schools, apparently.

 

SOMEBODY is siphoning it off for their own use.

-=Mike

...That somebody isn't the President...

How do you know it isn't making it to the schools?

 

I've never heard these criticisms of teachers unions. The main knocks on the unions that I know of is that they try to control public education too much, that they stifle change in the system, and that the contracts they impose are too restraining.

 

You guys seem to be suggesting that they are stealing money? I would like to hear more.

 

I'm ambivalent about the unions. Workers have the right to organize collectively, to unionize. But if the unions are impeding progress in education--that's a problem.

 

As Dubya so poignantly said, "the question we should be asking ourselves is 'is our children learning?'"

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Like any business, unions exist to make money. They served a purpose at one point before labor laws became as established as they are now. As it stands, in 2004, they hurt employees more than they help them. They act in their own best interests, not those of their members.

I know a lot of union guys that would argue with you on that one.

[Guest Loss]

I know quite a few who'd agree. I have an uncle who's a yardmaster at UP and is almost strong-armed into paying union fees every year, but doesn't really get anything out of it.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I know quite a few who'd agree. I have an uncle who's a yardmaster at UP and is almost strong-armed into paying union fees every year, but doesn't really get anything out of it.

Yeah I'm sure there are bad ones but I think you were generalizing a bit much. My stepfather is a union carpenter and he feels like his union has been very effective in fighting for his interests.

 

On the subject of the big teachers unions, I think they are probably a bad thing. They have all of this political influence and these massive budgets--yet they still can't secure reasonable salaries for teachers.

 

Unions are probably also the friend of the ineffective teacher. If you're a talented effectual teacher then you will command good working conditions and pay without the union's help.

[Guest MikeSC]

Even if the money was there the Teachers Unions would suck it all right up and barely any of it would get into the classroom.

 

I don't really get what you mean here. The money wouldn't go to unions, it would go to schools.

Education spending has increased over 40%.

 

It isn't making it to the schools, apparently.

 

SOMEBODY is siphoning it off for their own use.

-=Mike

...That somebody isn't the President...

How do you know it isn't making it to the schools?

You have to assume the teachers aren't all lying.

I've never heard these criticisms of teachers unions.  The main knocks on the unions that I know of is that they try to control public education too much, that they stifle change in the system, and that the contracts they impose are too restraining.

Oh, that is the least of their problems.

You guys seem to be suggesting that they are stealing money?  I would like to hear more.

The money is lost in one of two places: The teachers union or school district administration. I've heard far too many stories of teachers saying that nothing has changed that they have noticed, yet spending has skyrocketed.

I'm ambivalent about the unions.  Workers have the right to organize collectively, to unionize.  But if the unions are impeding progress in education--that's a problem.

It's even worse because --- well, let's just say that the children of union heads don't often ATTEND public schools.

 

In fact, that was a huge beef I had with Clinton. He vigorously opposed vouchers WHILE sending his daughter to an elite private school. If the public system wasn't good enough for his daughter --- why the hell is it good enough for other peoples' children?

-=Mike

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I know a lot of the new funding has gone to implementing the (ineffectual) NCLB testing and the like. But perhaps you're right about the unions, I don't know.

 

I agree about the hypocrisy of Clinton on this issue, but I'm not sure vouchers are the answer. It's essentially a lottery to see who gets a good education. It basically turns public schools into holding cells for losers of the voucher lottery. It's giving up on public education.

[Guest MikeSC]

I know a lot of the new funding has gone to implementing the (ineffectual) NCLB testing and the like. But perhaps you're right about the unions, I don't know.

 

I agree about the hypocrisy of Clinton on this issue, but I'm not sure vouchers are the answer. It's essentially a lottery to see who gets a good education. It basically turns public schools into holding cells for losers of the voucher lottery. It's giving up on public education.

At the risk of being mean, how is that any different than the present situation? At least with vouchers, more parents have the chance to take their kids out of the failing public schools and stick them in private ones.

-=Mike

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I don't think public schools in general are failing. I think that I got a good education in a public school, with AP and honors classes. There are also some very good public schools where I live in Lexington, KY. I think the problem isn't that public schooling as a whole has failed, but that schools are very unequal. Rather than throwing up our hands and giving up on public schools, I think efforts should be made to increase the quality of the public schools that are inadequate.

 

I think that public education is cornerstone of American democracy and should not be abandoned so quickly.

[Guest SP-1]

I bet Bin Laden is bent on his final showdown with Dubya. He reversed psychologied~! the American People into electing Bush for this purpose.

 

Dan Rather would approve.

[Gert T 0]

I agree with both sides on the educational issue. I pay 374 bucks per year for my teacher's union, and what has it got me, one day per quarter that the kids get out 2 hours early so we have planning time. Waste of my money.

 

Mike, the money is easily going to school administration. The problem is, the new positions created are "_______ supervisor", this person just oversees, but does not work with the students who need the extra help to be able to pass these tests. In Ohio now only 1% of your district's student body are excempt from taking these tests, including students with disabilities. Now the evaluation comes after a 3 year window so technically 3% is exempt from the testing, but still there is not enough personnel actually working with kids to get them to pass these tests.

 

And sadly I've seen this first-hand, but we are now mostly teaching kids how to pass tests and not necessarily teaching them the cirriculum so they remember it and can benefit from it later.

 

No Child Left Behind is a good idea, but has many holes. Bush has to take some of the blame for that, BUT like it has been mentioned before it passed through the legislative brnaches, so W. should not be villified by educators across America.

[Justice 0]

Like any business, unions exist to make money. They served a purpose at one point before labor laws became as established as they are now. As it stands, in 2004, they hurt employees more than they help them. They act in their own best interests, not those of their members.

I know a lot of union guys that would argue with you on that one.

Eh, from my experience with my mother and grandmother both being Detroit teachers, it's the top-heavy administrative part that eats up the most cash. Stuff like extra secretary and unnecessary advisors. Seriously, most areas have an decent amount of money per student (I know that Detroit is at least average) but the amount of administrative jobs can be obscene. If you want blame, don't put it on the Teacher's Unions or those darn Republicans, put it on useless buracracy.

 

At least, that's what my inside sources continually tell me.

 

Edit: Damn, Gert got it before me. *Shakes Fist*

[Gert T 0]

Hey as long as we agree, I'll give you credit for your thoughts. Because we all have to agree on everything here at TSM!!!

[2GOLD 0]

Ha ha

 

Oh John, you so crazy.

[Guest BDC]

I don't think public schools in general are failing. I think that I got a good education in a public school, with AP and honors classes. There are also some very good public schools where I live in Lexington, KY. I think the problem isn't that public schooling as a whole has failed, but that schools are very unequal. Rather than throwing up our hands and giving up on public schools, I think efforts should be made to increase the quality of the public schools that are inadequate.

 

I think that public education is cornerstone of American democracy and should not be abandoned so quickly.

Where in Lexington are you? Some areas are MILES better than others.

 

My dad has worked for KEA as a union rep in the past... and has been pissed as hell at the whole thing. Basically, his biggest gripe is that the one person he can't pretty much do anything about is the superintendent and THAT'S where the money goes. Dumbass ideas like redrawing bus routes and disbanding school programs only to remake them and such.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Where in Lexington are you? Some areas are MILES better than others.

 

I'm a student at UK. I live off Tates Creek Rd.

 

Yeah, when I was talking about inequality in public schools I was thinking about Paul Laurence Dunbar HS vs. Bryan Station HS.