Fairly new to Japanese wrestling....

[Guest Breakdancingbatista]

I'm fairly to new to Japanese wrestling so i was wodnering if you guys could tell rate the following wrestlers to give me an idea on how good they are and what style of wrestling they use.

 

Keji Muto

Bob Sapp

Hiroyoshi Tenzan

Heat

Tiger Mask

Yuji Nagata

Jyushin Liger

Kenta Kobashi

Genichiro Tenryu

 

and are TAKA Michunuku and Ultimo Dragon doing well back over in Japan?

 

Thanks for any feedback.

 

BB

[Internet Warfare 0]

Keiji Muto (great muta) was awsome back in his day and can still pull off a good match if he's motivated, which isnt very often anymore. He was at his best at around 1991-1995, you should check out his stuff against Hiroshi Hase and Masahiro Chono. I'm not good at stating styles...

 

Bob Sapp He isnt really a wrestler, just an MMA fighter that became IWGP champion because he was a major ratings draw i would guess. He's a terrible wrestler, which is understandable considering he's hasnt had many matches.

 

Jyushin "thunder' Liger This guy is fucking awsome, but he is getting up there. He's like around 40 yrs old. He's always been great but i would suggest 1993-1997 as his best years. His matches against Shinjiro otani and Wild Pegusus are classic.

 

TAKA Michinoku, started his own organization called KAIENTI DOJO. I've havent seen any of their shows, but heard good things about them. He's also working ALL JAPAN a lot now days.

 

Ultimo Dragon isnt doing anything right now, just waiting to go to WWE i guess.

[Guest JebusNassedar]

Keiji Mutoh, in my opinion, is only good in 2000, as well as his runs with The Great Muta before 2002. Otherwise, he's the drizzling shits. But, his runs with The Great Muta were FANTASTIC. His work nowadays is uninspired, and dull. He's killed his own finisher, the Shining Wizard.

 

Bob Sapp flunked the fucking Power Plant. That should say enough about his talent.

 

Tenzan is one of the few constants in puroresu, in that he's constantly getting screwed, although, he's not THAT good. Comparible to John Cena with submission work and a better finisher (Tenzan Tombstone Driver, or TTD.)

 

HEAT is awful. He was once good, but that was as Minoru Tanaka, back at BattlARTS. IF you want good, logical work with him, aim for his matches with BattlARTS, or when he first came in to New Japan.

 

Tiger Mask is an intruiging case. He's got good charisma, and is one of the only masked wrestlers where their identity is still a mystery. He's inconsistent in ring, but seems to be good in tag matches. Well, any tag matches without Taiji Ishimori. Fucking spotmonkey.

 

Yuji Nagata is one of the most overrated workers I've ever seen. He has a good physique, but most of his BIG MOVES are rather blatently stolen from Jun Akiyama. I can only name one good Nagata match, and that was last year, against Akira Taue.

 

Jyushin Lyger is probably one of the best wrestlers of all time. He's the most varied competitor I've ever seen. His only really lacking area is matwork, but that's only a small scratch in the armor. He came up with your pal Batista's powerbomb, even. His influence spreads far and wide.

 

Kenta Kobashi is an interesting case as well. He was a great worker, and in some respects, still is. But to say that his work hasnt deteriorated is rediculous. Kenta Kobashi is probably the most important man in Japan, and is the US equivalent to Samoa Joe, as far as titles go, as he is nearing year two as GHC Heavyweight Champion. You'll often hear Meltzer sing his praises, and while he's good, he has dropped off. The apex of his career was a tag match of him and Mitsuharu Misawa Vs. Toshiaki Kawada and Akira Taue in June of 1995 back in All Japan Pro Wrestling.

 

As a side note, if you want somewhere to start in puroresu, go to 1990 and get all the All Japan you can until the NOAH Split.

 

Gen'ichiro Tenryu is the Japanese Ric Flair. He's old, but he doesnt give even half a shit. However, unlike Ric Flair, he's still absolutely aswesome. He can pull out a good match every now and again, and has one of the most original movesets in pro wrestling history. Look into WAR and SWS if you want a body of his best work, or in 2002, when he and Satoshi Kojima fought for the Triple Crown titles.

 

Of course, this is all my opinion.

[Nevermortal 0]

Tenryu is the world's greatest old bastard. His soccer kicks to your face are cringeworthy, and if you dare stiff him out, he'll just look at you as if to say "Nigga please." He also possesses one of the most unique physiques in the industry with his lumpy body and saggy manboobs. But it's not like he gives a shit. If you make fun of him for it, he'll probably punch you right in the jaw, give you a brainbuster, and fuck your girlfriend up the ass for your troubles.

 

Do not step to him.

[Guest JebusNassedar]

*steals that for sig.*

[Guest Black Tiger]

Keji Muto: He's good on occasion. But he's not afraid to stink the joint up.

 

Bob Sapp: The complete and utter drizzling shit.

 

Hiroyoshi Tenzan: Booked worse that Benoit in WCW. Although hopefully that'll change, now that he's got the IWGP Title back.

 

Heat: Haven't seen much of him lately, but he's also not afraid to suck.

 

Tiger Mask: no comment

 

Yuji Nagata: Don't believe the hype.

 

Jyushin Liger: God. Not as good nowadays due to age and such. But he's still way above most others.

 

Kenta Kobashi: Has really regressed downwards. Doesn't have many great matches anymore.

 

Genichiro Tenryu: He's fun for his grumpiness. But from what I've seen out of him, he doesn't really try anymore.

[Guest Ray]

"Kenta Kobashi: Has really regressed downwards."

 

If "regressed" means "he's having ****1/4 matches instead of ***** matches" then yes, he's regressed.

[Guest JebusNassedar]

"Kenta Kobashi: Has really regressed downwards."

 

If "regressed" means "he's having ****1/4 matches instead of ***** matches" then yes, he's regressed.

Meltzer's influence is scary.

 

To call Kobashi on the same level he was in 94-97 is just craziness. He has detiriorated, but he knows how to hide it very, very well.

[Guest Ray]

"Meltzer's influence is scary."

 

Yeah, because I love Meltzer.

 

"To call Kobashi on the same level he was in 94-97 is just craziness. He has detiriorated, but he knows how to hide it very, very well. "

 

Did I say he is still as good as he was in the mid-90's? NO.

[Guest JebusNassedar]

"he's having ****1/4 matches instead of ***** matches"

 

He's not having ****1/4 matches. He's had one ****1/4 match this year, with Takayama. That's pretty much it. So yes, it is accurate to say that he's deteriorated over the years. By making that comment, you alluded to the fact that he is still consistantly good, which is where I came from with the comment about the craziness of assuming he's still at his peak and is still giving his all(94-97).

 

And whether you like it or not, some time in the past or in the future, you have had/will have an opinion influenced by the Observer.

 

 

It...is inevitable.

[Guest Spunk]

Don't worry about Ray, he is a kook.

 

Keji Muto - One of the most heralded stars in modern New Japan history. He was pretty interesting from like 88 - 92, the mid-90s he was 'fun' to watch, and then 2000 - 2001 he was all of a sudden a great worker. After that, well.. Its questionable. His knees and back are shit, and he just relies on his name to get him over now.

 

Bob Sapp - Guh. Failed the Powerplant, trained for MMA. Got over huge in PRIDE and K-1 for just being fucking huge. Wrestled a handful of times, and just sucked a lot. After his loss to Kazu Fujita he gave up on pro-wres it seems, and Japan in general for now.

 

Hiroyoshi Tenzan - A good tag worker.. Other than that, him in control of a match is near impossible to watch.

 

Heat - Lazy, lazy, lazy. Shows no emotion, and just sucks the energy out of a show. Funny thing is, if you asked me in 2001, I'd say he was a tremendous worker.

 

Tiger Mask - If you mean the current, IV, its a tale of a guy with great execution with no charisma. I know the Tiger Mask thing is to be 'stoic' and all, but this guy can't even show anything anymore.

 

Yuji Nagata - The Japanese Kurt Angle. When he gets confused, he just starts throwing out his huge moves at random, and really drags matches down. When being dominated, he can be good, but that is rare.

 

Jyushin Liger - One of the greatest of all time.

 

Kenta Kobashi - One of the AJPW 3, and one of the greatest heavyweights in modern history. He is pretty broken down now, to say the least.

 

Genichiro Tenryu - Old, grumpy, and was totally reborn in like 2001, throwing out a bunch of great matches from then until say 2003. Now he is kind of just old and grumpy, doesn't have much left in him.

[Guest Ray]

He's not having ****1/4 matches. He's had one ****1/4 match this year, with Takayama. That's pretty much it.

Kobashi vs. Akiyama was ****+. Kobashi vs. Chono last year was ****+.

 

So yes, it is accurate to say that he's deteriorated over the years.

He's deteriorated...from being one of the best wrestlers ever to simply being the best heavyweight in the world at the moment. Man, what a dropoff that is.

 

By making that comment, you alluded to the fact that he is still consistantly good

He is still consistently good.

 

which is where I came from with the comment about the craziness of assuming he's still at his peak and is still giving his all(94-97).

His "peak" was 1993. Just to say. And he certainly is still giving his all. His body is a mess but he still works harder than any of his peers.

 

And whether you like it or not, some time in the past or in the future, you have had/will have an opinion influenced by the Observer.

Yes....even though I don't even read it.

 

Don't worry about Ray, he is a kook.

Shouldn't that be "worry, about Ray, because he is a kook!" ?

[Nevermortal 0]

He's not having ****1/4 matches. He's had one ****1/4 match this year, with Takayama.

I still need to see that match.

 

Re Kobashi:

 

He's still fun to watch, despite not working smart matches like he did in the past. The fact that he puts himself through obscene amounts of punishment today after taking some of the more hellacious beatings in prowrestling history during the 90's is a testament to his dedication for the business. He's arguably the greatest champion in pro-wrestling today, too, with the IWGP title being passed around like a hot potato and All Japan being the #3 company.

 

I do believe he's running out of challengers for the GHC title, much like Samoa Joe is for the ROH title, simply due to the length of the reign. It'll be interesting to see who beats him for the title, just as long as it isn't Misawa.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Shouldn't that be "worry, about Ray, because he is a kook!" ?

 

No, because I'm pretty sure Dave meant to say "Don't worry about paying attention to anything Ray says. He's a kook". But just said it in a shorter version

 

Kobashi vs. Akiyama was ****+. Kobashi vs. Chono last year was ****+.

 

Here's quite the novel idea, instead of just tossing around snowflakes, like its winter time in Maine. Why not actually try discussing exactly *WHY* you think those matches are ****+. I'm sure the person who started this topic might apprecite it, with their being new to Puroresu and everything.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Or you could just be walking into a friendly joke and making it out to be more than it is Mike .

[Guest Contentious C]

"Kenta Kobashi: Has really regressed downwards."

 

If "regressed" means "he's having ****1/4 matches instead of ***** matches" then yes, he's regressed.

Another note about being "new" to puro - don't listen to the following people, ever:

 

Rob Edwards, Ray, or anyone else who calls Smarkschoice "home"

Anyone writing about the subject on this site at present or in the future

Anyone writing for Happy Wrestling Land

Anyone writing for Real in Memphis

 

It'll make life easier.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Or anyone who doesn't even follow the current product and brushes off Kensuke Sasaki's year as overrated based on one match like Chris here

[Guest Breakdancingbatista]

well cheers for the responses so far guys.

who r the best high flyers in japan at the moment?

 

and there was a guy on the first ever ECW pay per view who teamed with Gran Hamada and Great Sasuke against the Japanese BWO, does anybody know who he is and if he still wrestles?

 

BB

[Guest Contentious C]

Or anyone who doesn't even follow the current product and brushes off Kensuke Sasaki's year as overrated based on one match like Chris here

Yeah, because the 50-60 events I have from this year mean I don't follow anything.

 

Good old Rob, never knows when to think before speaking...reviews, posts, you name it...

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

and there was a guy on the first ever ECW pay per view who teamed with Gran Hamada and Great Sasuke against the Japanese BWO, does anybody know who he is and if he still wrestles?

That was Masato Yakushuji, and he retired a few years ago because of injuries.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Or anyone who doesn't even follow the current product and brushes off Kensuke Sasaki's year as overrated based on one match like Chris here

Yeah, because the 50-60 events I have from this year mean I don't follow anything.

 

Good old Rob, never knows when to think before speaking...reviews, posts, you name it...

Eh you said you'd only seen the Sapp match from Sasaki this year and that you felt in a position to judge his year based on it. Your words not mine.

 

The rest of your post isn't exactly worth dignifying with a response now is it?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Less of the pissing contest, more of the educating the guy who wants to learn.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

well cheers for the responses so far guys.

who r the best high flyers in japan at the moment?

If you're talking in terms of purely aerial moves, then the best of those are in Dragon's Gate, formerly known as T2P. Those guys do some sweet high flying moves, as well as some wacky submission holds.

 

If you're talking about the smaller wrestlers who are overall the most talented, then New Japan guys like Liger, Kanemoto, Gedo and Jado (purely for their heel tactics), as well as the latest crop of New Japan rookies, are the ones I think you should watch.

[Guest JebusNassedar]

If you want flyers that do crazy moves, go with Dragon's Gate, or in a few cases, Osaka Pro. Warning about the latter, though; it's crazy. Not, like, HUSTLE crazy, but crazy.

 

If you want a crisp, solid high flyer, look into Naomichi Marufuji. The man is stunning, in that he can not only fly like a monkey, but work a solid match as well. He wrestlers for NOAH, who, in my opinion, has the best junior division of the Big 3 (New Japan, All Japan, and, well, NOAH.)

 

EDIT: One other! If you happen to be like me and prefer solid working as well as flying, there's a wrestler out there named AKIRA who is probably one of my favorite juniors in Japan today. Best dropkick in the world, as well as a gorgeous top rope body splash.

[Guest Spunk]

Sweet Jesus man.. I know we are all entitled to opinions and all, but Kanemoto is pretty freaking bad. Kanemoto does not freaking sell, like at all. Gedo is *alright* at best, and Jado is just plain horrible. The young lions show very little so far, other than dropkicks, elbow strikes (FIREY~!) and boston crabs, so its hard to say if they have talent or not. They are just working the same formula matches in front of crowds so they can gain experience working in front of crowds.

 

Lyger on the otherhand, well yeah, he is Lyger. AKIRA, who is a freelancer right now is really quite good as well. But you've somehow missed out on like, one of the best wrestlers alive at the moment: KENTA. KENTA is like, one of the lone bright stars in the very dark world of puroresu right now.

 

Dragon's Gate was formerly known as Toryumon, T2P is "Toryumon 2000 Project" which was the Mexican gym of Ultimo Dragon, which pumped out Milano Collection AT, YOSSINO and like the Aagan guys. T2P then merged with Toryumon, and then Toryumon pushed Ultimo out and became Dragon's Gate. Toryumon X is the last class of Ultimo's gyms, and most of them are just working for Michinoku Pro right now.

 

Some good high flyers:

 

MIKAMI - From DDT. Really spotty, I mean, he is basically a mix between Jeff Hardy and Rey Misterio Jr. But can be really fun to watch.

 

Asian Cougar/Kappa Kazou - Um, he just owns your soul.

 

Tsubasa - From Osaka Pro. His team with Black Buffalo was one of the best junior tag teams in years (except for like KENTA/Marufuji).

 

Ok, and I'm just going to say this.. If you want to see good junior stuff, just hunt down any of the KENTA/Marufuji tag matches from the past 2 years. 'Nuff said.

 

If you want a crisp, solid high flyer, look into Naomichi Marufuji.

 

Don't listen to him! Marufuji is ok in tag matches, but tends to be very, very spotty. Me and a few people will watch Marufuji matches and play the "Count the Superkick" game. I believe 14 is the record. Like I said, Marufuji can be reigned in during tag matches, and be really fun, but in singles matches its like you are watching an in-ring abortion. Watch KENTA vs Marufuji for proof of this.

[Guest Contentious C]

You play "count the Superkick," I play "count the 'like'."

[Guest Spunk]

Are you, like, making fun of my valley-girl talk, Chris? If so, like, you are like such a looooser.

[Special K 0]

In regards to Tiger Mask, the first Tiger Mask, Satoro Sayama, had an incredible series of matches with Dynamite Kid. TM1 was not only a good flyer, but he was extremely crisp and graceful. Everything just looks perfect in these matches. I'm sure someone has a comp of their matches out there. They were revolutionary at the time, they're still great today.

 

P.S. My favourite Bob Sapp match is versus Cro Cop. (he gets KOed in under a minute, I believe.)

[Guest Contentious C]

In regards to Tiger Mask, the first Tiger Mask, Satoro Sayama, had an incredible series of matches with Dynamite Kid. TM1 was not only a good flyer, but he was extremely crisp and graceful. Everything just looks perfect in these matches.

Are you out of your gourd??????

 

???????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Guest JebusNassedar]

I said 'crisp', not 'OMGFANTASTIC.' The excecution of most (Spanish Fly withstanding) of Marufuji moves are very cleanly performed.

 

I didn't mention KENTA because he doesnt seem like that much of a high flyer to me, except for the Missile Dropkick. He seems like NOAH's answer to NJPW's shootwrestle types, like Naruse, Nagai, Kakihara, and those types. Although, the key difference is that KENTA can actually work pretty well.

 

Speaking of Kakihara, was anyone else laughing when he started trying to use the Headlock as a legit finisher?

 

For the New Japan Rookies, I think he was, sadly, talking about guys like Wataru Inoue, Naruse, and maybe Nakajima. And while the STAGGERIN' BLOW is a cool finisher name, over the last two years, he's mutated into probably the most boring young guy in NJPW. Naruse is the same case, only his push is excused by having legit (well, hopefully) MMA wins. I havent seen enough of Nakajima to make a case for him, though.

 

Triangle Lancer is still cool, though.