It's official

[Guest bravesfan]

The Spurs didn't get raped by the Lakers though, they bent over and let the Lakers have their way with them in the waning moments of each game.

Well, yes, but as I said before, only Duncan and Rose (and to a lesser extent, Parker) showed up in this series at all.

 

Duncan carries them to the 4th Quarter, where there the rest of the team folds like wet taco shells. While in the 4th Quarter w/the Nets and Kidd, there are no players on the team who do that. They play consistently throughout and prove a point: Kidd gets a whole lot more help from his team down the stretch then Duncan does.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Kidd has a little something to do with that.

[Guest alfdogg]

Btw, I've heard around that the Nets, in some people's opinions, look like the Showtime Lakers. I've heard of the Showtime Lakers but didn't see them play cuz I was too young. Can anyone bring any clarification to this claim? Are the Nets playing like the Showtime Lakers?

No.

 

Alfdogg - official property of the RAW brand.  You can stop jobbing me to HHH now.

[Guest bravesfan]

Okay, settle the argument here.

 

Take the "M.V.P." title and break it down...

Most VALUABLE Player....

 

TAKE THEM BOTH OUT:

If a Duncanless Spurs and Kidd-less Nets play in the SAME division, how would they fair?

 

VALUE IF STAR IS INJURED, BACKUP COMES UP:

Duncan's back-up is Danny Ferry (or Rose, however you look at it) who is a 13-15 year veteran who is constantly injured. Kidd's back-up is Anthony Johnson...you'll saw how he stepped in Kidd's absence during that incident in Charlotte...How far do you go from Duncan to Ferry? Compare that to how far Kidd is to Johnson...both downgrades are huge, but Duncan would be a little more missed by the Spurs, considering their ability to fold when the chips are high. I mean, even a no-passing Marbury took the Nets for a good ride last year...without Kittles or a steady Van Horn or Martin- which Kidd has now.

 

CONFERENCE/PLAYOFF COMPETITION:

 

DUNCAN....O'NEAL, GARNETT, WEBBER, NOWITZKI, MALONE

 

KIDD....B. DAVIS, E. SNOW, TINSLEY, ARMSTRONG, KENNY FRIGGEN ANDERSON?!?

 

On ANY GIVEN NIGHT, Duncan will face an All-Star power forward or center...I mean the Western Conference alone has 10-15 of them

 

Kidd has a mildly tough time with Davis, the only considerable talent on this list besides Tinsley...where's his competition where the stakes are high? Couldn't they just put Kevin Nash at PG against the likes of Eric freaking Snow?

 

I have a friend who resembles Snow in many ways- Snow's role on the 76ers behind Iverson, his shooting, passing and dribbling.

 

He's our ball boy.

 

DUNCAN=MVP

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Rod fucking Thorn won Executive of the Year. THe Nets don't get the MVP award or Coach of the Year award, they get Executive of the Year award, and that same man happens to work in the front office of the NBA. The Nets didn't get to the Conference Finals because Jason Kidd is the league's most valuable player. They didn't get there because Byron Scott was the best coach in the league this year. They got there because Rod Thorn did such a gret job. What did he do though? He brought in all of those great rookies? The main reason the Nets are still around is because Rod Thorn traded for Jason Kidd. I don't see how you can overlook Jason Kidd's contributions but give Rod Thorn an award for trading for him.

 

 

 

DUNCAN = Watching the playoffs

[Guest bravesfan]

I ain't overlooking shit. Rod Thorn only looks like a genius because he traded an although talented guard, but problematic selfish player in Marbury for another questionable guy in Kidd (at least to the Phoenix public).

 

Carlisle got the Coach Of The Year award over Scott because he took a bunch of fucking castaways and turned them into contenders. Heart is all that the Pistons have- no talents (except for Wallace and Stack) that have no business in the playoffs if it wasn't for Carlisle's drive and motivation. Need a example of this? 2002 New England Patriots.

 

The Nets HAVE talent. They've always had talent- it's just that the Nets has finally got HEALTHY support for a change and this in turn made Kidd look good to the voters.

 

If you're saying Thorn as NBA exec might've had support in his own win, wouldn't his influence bring Scott and Kidd their trophies?

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Rod Thorn doesn't look like a genius in my book. Jason Kidd was the biggest reason that the Nets had such a turn-around. If you trade one player for another and your team turns around, shouldn't the player get some credit instead of the guy who made the trade? Jason Kidd has been talked about as the reason why the NEts have turned around. He's clearly the leader of his tem and they appear to be headed to the finals. Hell, they're even running aricles about the guy's son. I don't see how he was less valuable to the league this year than Tim Duncan.

[Guest Ripper]

And once again, I have to say what bullshit it is to keep saying that the Nets got better because they are healthy this year.  Van Horn, Kittles and Martin played in a majority of the games together last year. They all got hurt near the end of the season (except Van Horn who missed the beganing)  They are the same team basically and now they are close to the finals after winning 26 games last year. What did Duncan do that he hasn't done every year in the league.  The Spurs had a better year last year.  They actually fell some, but for some reason he is the MVP and Kidd isn't?  

 

The West has 2 bad teams????? Are you kidding???  Golden State, Memphis, Houston, the Clippers,and (sigh) the Suns, were basically automatic wins this year.  The Jazz Timber wolves and Blazers had very few wins against teams with winning records.  There are a lot of teams to beat up on in the West.  Remeber, there were 4 teams in the West to not win 30 games...only 2 in the East.  The other lower teams like the Knicks(who split with the Spurs, Lakers this year), the Hawks(split with the Lakers and the Kings) and others all were copetitive and all basically swept the west coast bottom feeders.  

 

All the stats, all the arguing you want, you can't deny that Jason Kidd led a 26 game winning team to the conference finals.  Duncan took a 60 game winning team to a couple of more losses and a second round choke up.  All this with Steve Smith putting better Numbers than Anderson did last year, Ferry Putting up better numbers than Elliot did last year, and Rose putting up better numbers than Walker did and David Robinson STILL averaging a double double.  Every Single net is putting up basically the same numbers they did last year or less.  

 

Jason Kidd:   MY MVP

[Guest bravesfan]

2000-2001 Nets

              GP  GS  MIN    PTS  OFF  DEF TOT AST  STL  BLK

 

S. Marbury 67  67  38.2   23.9   0.8  2.3  3.1  7.6  1.18   0.07

 

Van Horn   49  47  35.4   17.0   1.6  5.5   7.1  1.7  0.82  0.41

 

Martin       68  68  33.4   12.0   2.0  5.4   7.4  1.9  1.15  1.66

 

Newman    82  17  25.0   10.9   0.4  1.7   2.1  1.4  0.77  0.12

 

Williams     82  25  28.5   10.2   2.6  4.6   7.2  1.1  0.72  1.38

 

Harris        73  50  28.4    9.4   1.0  3.0   3.9  1.8   1.0   0.22

 

TOTALS                        92.1  11.1 28.5 39.6 19.5 7.9   4.9

 

The rest of the bench was oft injured, these were the only players who appeared in more than 50 games....The next closest was Kendall Gill with 34 games. IMO, Look's like a HUGE ASSORTMENT OF TALENT TO CHOOSE FROM.

 

2001-2002 Nets

                   GP  GS MIN   PTS  OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK

 

K. Martin         73  73  34.3 14.9  1.5  3.8  5.3 2.6  1.23 1.66

 

K. Van Horn     81  81  30.4 14.8  1.7  5.8  7.5 2.0  0.78 0.52

 

J. Kidd            82  82  37.3 14.7  1.6  5.7  7.3 9.9  2.13 0.24

 

K. Kittles         82  82  31.7 13.4  0.8  2.5  3.4 2.6  1.59 0.38

 

T. McCulloch    62  61  24.2  9.7   2.5  3.6  6.1 1.3  0.39 1.44

 

R. Jefferson     79  9   24.3  9.4   1.1   2.6  3.7 1.8  0.81 0.61

 

L. Harris          74  0   21.0  9.1   0.7   2.1  2.8 1.6  0.72 0.08

 

Williams           82  13 18.9  7.2   1.4   2.7  4.1 0.9  0.35 0.93

 

Collins             77  9  18.3   4.5   1.7   2.2  3.9 1.0  0.3  0.61

 

TOTALS 82                 96.2 12.7 30.7 43.3 24.3  8.73 5.9

 

LOST: Marbury, Newman (missed alot this season)

GAINED: Collins, McCulloch, Jefferson, Kittles, Kidd

 

NOTHING IN STATS CHANGED.

Maybe +4 points a game as a team,

         + 4 rebounds a game as a team.

 

The Nets DID get over injuries, gained two great rookies, and added a actual BENCH.

 

Oh, and 49 of 82 is not the majority. Heck, he barely reached the halfway point last year.

[Guest]

FYI Risk:

 

The winning percentages of the top five Western Conference teams--Sacramento (.744), San Antonio (.707), L.A. (.707), Dallas (.695), and Minnesota (.610)--better or equal those of the top two Eastern Conference teams--New Jersey (.634) and Detroit (.610).  Portland, the sixth seed in the West, tied Boston, third seed in the East and conference semifinalist, in winning percentage at .598.  The remaining two seeds in the West--Seattle (.549) and Utah (.537)--better or equal the remaining five seeds in the East--Charlotte (.537), Orlando (.537), Philadelphia (.524), Toronto (.512), and Indiana (.512).  This means that a team swept, swept in three games by the Lakers had the same record as a potential Laker opponent in the finals.  If you need more proof that the West is better, just ask.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

If the Western Conference teams play each other so much, how come so many teams have such great records?

[Guest Ripper]

That is my point exactly..If the West is more competetive and has better teams, there would be more losses and it would be alot closer from the 1-8 seed.   Instead you have 4 dominant teams and the lower rungs beating up on the bottom feeders to stack their records.  The East, from top to bottom, have a better dispurement of talent and have more overall competitive teams.  the Bulls and Cavs are easy pickins, true, but basically all the other bottom teams can beat a top team when healthy.  The Rockets, Warriors, and others in the west can't win with the whole team there.  

 

And those 49 games that Van Horn played in, Martin, Marbury, and Kittles were all playing with him then.  The major part of the team was there and they couldn't win. A few years back when they had Marbury, Jayson Williams(NBA leading rebounder and allstar), Van Horn and Gill, they couldn't win(A healthy Gill is light years better than a healthy Kittles...believe it)  This team couldn't win until they added a MVP calibur point guard.

[Guest]

If the Western Conference teams play each other so much, how come so many teams have such great records?

Because their records against the east are very good.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Then who's beating up on the Western Conference teams? Didn't the Bulls sweep the Lakers this year?

[Guest bravesfan]

Well, it's obvious that both conferences have their share of crap... Bulls, Hawks, Knicks, Cavs, Grizzlies, Warriors, Rockets and Suns were all horrible, but it's the fact that the East has about ONE COMPETENT TEAM that could go out and beat the West...and they are the Nets.

 

But, until the day when the Nets get better competition in the East other than Tracy McGrady by himself, a Carter-less Raptors, the 3-Point Celtics (which, BTW, all 3 teams would be eaten alive in the West, but stand a fighting chance against the Nets in the East), you CAN'T SAY that the East is the better conference.

 

Competition only seems fierce in the East, because the bottom 10 teams BLOW. The West seems uneven in records, because the Grizzlies and Warriors ARE automatic wins... but so should a bunch of bums in the Pistons, who instead got a #2 in the East for their troubles, with only 1 credible all-star in Wallace.

[Guest Ripper]

But the Lakers haven't beaten the Celtics in nearly 3 years now...the Bucks(if they are on their I feel like playing tonight mood) beat the top west teams with ease...and they didn't make the playoffs.  The Hawks, despite how much they suck, manage to split with every top team in the East.  

 

The point is that the Bad teams in the East are more well rounded and are basically better teams than the bad teams in the west.  With the exception of 4 teams in the west, the East is a overall better conference.

[Guest]

Western Conference record vs. East: 232-188 (.552)

Eastern Conference record vs. West: 188-232 (.448)

 

source: espn.com

 

Before you start talking about how the West's own competition is easier, remember that both conferences are always .500 against themselves.  But the records against the opposing conference are indisputable.

[Guest Ripper]

WELLLLLLLL

 

MY mvp just AVERAGED a triple double in the conference finals...becoming the 3rd man in the history of the game to do so.  Just thought I might add that.

[Guest bravesfan]

2001-02 MOST VALUABLE PLAYER AWARD VOTING RESULTS

(source: NBA.com)

I left out the 4th and 5th Place Votes, for format purposes...

Player Team                      1st  2nd 3rd    Pts

Tim Duncan San Antonio       57  38   20     954

Jason Kidd New Jersey         45   41   26     897

Shaquille O'Neal L.A. Lakers   15  38   40     696

Tracy McGrady Orlando         7   5     28    390

Kobe Bryant L.A. Lakers        1    1     4      98

Gary Payton Seattle             1   1      1      54

Chris Webber Sacramento      0   1     1      37

Dirk Nowitzki Dallas               0   0     1      31

Allen Iverson Philadelphia       0   0     1      29

Ben Wallace Detroit              0   0     2      24

 

Out of 126 votes cast by Hall Of Famers, radio personalities and respected journalists and writers, 57 of them were for Duncan. That's 45.2% of the vote.

 

I ain't disputing Kidd's worth to his team, but hell, Duncan got more votes than Kidd and THAT's what counts...Case closed.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

It's not like you gave any jaw dropping knew evidence, I think everybody knew that's how the process went. If people were arguing about the Hesiman Trophy winner, you could say the same thing. Every fan poll that I saw had Jason Kidd kicking Tim Duncan's ass. I think the opinion of the fans is more important in a case like this. Since the league is for the fans and the fans felt that Jason Kidd was most valuable to the league, what criteria did the voters use?

[Guest bravesfan]

To say that the Fans deserve to vote in a case like this, is RIDICULOUS. Fan votes are idiotic, for several reasons.

 

--The bigger markets would just stuff the ballots for their favorite or nostalgic players... you don't think Shaq or Kobe wouldn't have gotten the MVP considering the following there?  

 

--Any 10-18 year old voting probably thinks Michael Jordan is the MVP by their logic. No kid in their right mind will think..."HEY, Duncan had ___ double doubles", or "Well, Kidd did alot for his team"... that stuff never occurs in any kid's head. You go by POPULARITY when you're young, not by contributions.

 

--Chris Webber in this year's All-Star Game. Elton Brand wasn't. Enough said.

 

Writers, who intensely cover the League EVERY DAY, deserve the vote. They are not biased in voting (most of the time) and have no reason for voting for the status quo (MJ, Shaq, Kobe) than a player, in that certain year, who really deserves it.

 

(sorry to dodge around your criteria question...)

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I never said the fans should determine the MVP. I just think the voters should consider the fans since the league is for the fans. Jason Kidd is in the NBA Finals and Tim Duncan is at home.

[Guest bravesfan]

Not that I'm trying to bash you or anything, but...

 

Considering the fans? How should they consider them?

If you feel that success might play a larger factor, consider that men like Karl Malone and Charles Barkley got it in years, when players like David Robinson, Magic Johnson and Patrick Ewing were having better years. Are those travesties? Yes.

Both Malone and Barkley made it to the Finals in their respective years, the rest went out early, but they were not the biggest contributors by a long shot. The writers learned from this and decided to base it on worth.

 

This year, Tracy McGrady got more votes than guys like Paul Pierce, Dirk Nowitzki and Allen Iverson, teams who made it farther

 

It should NOT be about success, as much as it is about your CONTRIBUTIONS. McGrady means a lot more to his team than Nowitzki and Pierce, even if they're more talented than T-Mac.

[Guest Ripper]

Are you trying to sugest that the Nets would be the same place without Kidd??

 

Kidd this year was second in double doubles(behind duncan but keep in mind he is a point guard) led a 26 win team to the finals, averaged a triple double in the conference finals...all I'm saying is that in the playoffs Kidd has proven who should've gotten the MVP.

[Guest bravesfan]

Oops. Read my reply below...

[Guest bravesfan]

Are you trying to sugest that the Nets would be the same place without Kidd??

 

No. But Kidd to Nets, or Duncan to Spurs...which team would do worse without their respective players?

 

Kidd this year was second in double doubles(behind duncan but keep in mind he is a point guard) led a 26 win team to the finals, averaged a triple double in the conference finals...all I'm saying is that in the playoffs Kidd has proven who should've gotten the MVP.

 

The playoffs don't mean anything in this case.

 

The voting was done before the postseason started. Same as NFL. Same as MLB. The NHL takes little consideration. If you added playoff performance to MVP voting, the MVP award would go to Kobe Bryant or Shaquille O'Neal, not Duncan or Kidd.

 

Oh, if you want to start that "led his team from 26 to __ wins" argument again, read the thread above this. I have proved over and over again that:

 

--Kidd's competition is far inferior than Duncan's.

--The Atlantic Conference is the worst in the NBA.

--Last year :26 wins with 5 guys who played 40+ games

--This year:50-55 wins with 9 guys playing 50+ games...

--Lack of team support for Duncan, while 2 All-Star season performances from Kenyon and Van Horn, with a HUGE surprise from the center McCulloch.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

If the league is for the fans, and the fans think that Jason Kidd was the most Valuable to the NBA this year, I think the voters should have considered it. The league isn't for writers or ex-players, the league is for the fans.

[Guest Ripper]

Ok, forget the Nets last year, look at the year before that..and before that.  Van Horn played better 2 years ago, Gill gave them better numbers than Jeffereson, Kittles gave teh same numbers, and they still were at the bottom of the league.

 

I know that the playoffs don't go into the figuring, but my point is that Jason was the MVP and he is still showing it.  The league only cares about the point catagory in my opinion.  I don't think a great defensive player, a great passer, will ever get the MVP again. The fact Malone has 2 MVPs and Stockton never got any realistic votes says volumes.  I still believe that the only reason Duncan won the MVP was because of the points column.  Can we please realize that Kidd is was 2.7 rebounds and .1 assist away from averaging a triple double this year?? AVERAGING A TRIPLE DOUBLE FOR A NBA SEASON.  

 

all that east west crap has nothing to do with it.  41 of Jasons games were against the competition that Duncan plays against.  Yeah, Duncan has to go against Garnett, Wallace and Webber, Brand, and..um...well thats about it, but they are all great players.... But Andre Miller, Baron Davis, Jamal Tinsley, Jason Terry, , Eric Strickland, Chucky Atkins, Sam Cassell, Troy Hudson and others aren't exactly easy to cover for 94 ft. night in and night out.  PLUS Kidd takes the best offensive player in the 4th quarters and the Paul Pierce, Jerry Stackhouse, Ray Allen, and other matchups aren't exacly a walk in the park.  The east is stronger in the skill posistions anyway and having to cover that for 82 games is just as impressive as Duncan taking on the scoring PFs in the west.

[Guest bravesfan]

Yeah, Duncan has to go against Garnett, Wallace and Webber, Brand, and..um...well thats about it, but they are all great players

 

How about Malone, Nowitzki/ Lafrentz, Jamison, Fortson, Gasol, Horry (when on offense, Horry is a awesome defender), McDyess....oh and that Shaq guy, since D-Rob admitted that his injured back could not stand the constant weight put on him.

 

Duncan was put on Shaq and contained him for the first 3-4 games of their playoff series, drawing charges and putting Shaq in foul trouble- that is until Robinson came back and was punished again in the clinching games.

 

PLUS Kidd takes the best offensive player in the 4th quarters and the Paul Pierce, Jerry Stackhouse, Ray Allen, and other matchups aren't exacly a walk in the park

 

Yeah, those Malones, Brands, Garnetts, Gasols, Jamisons Wallaces, O'Neals, Nowitzkis...THEY'RE NOT THE GO-TO-GUYS ON THEIR TEAM. Each and every one of those guys WILL CARRY their teams when asked to, only making it harder for Duncan to average 20 points and 10 rebounds night in and night out.

 

Hypthetical question:

I'll agree that Kidd is a GREAT defender, but how we can compare the defense of a PG to a PF? Any honest suggestions or stat categories?

 

But Andre Miller, Baron Davis, Jamal Tinsley, Jason Terry, Eric Strickland, Chucky Atkins, Sam Cassell, Troy Hudson and others aren't exactly easy to cover for 94 ft. night in and night out

 

Well, okay, you had to mention Erick Strickland....damn.

 

C'Mon, Kidd had better competition in the West LAST YEAR, took his team to a #6 seed last year... a#6 SEED?!? With Marion, Rogers and Robinson? The Phoenix team is not much different than the Nets are, Kidd has never gotten higher than a #4 seed in the West... so doesn't that say how strong the West is?

[Guest Ripper]

Well, see thats where you are wrong.  I am a Suns fan..not a little overnight fan, I have been a suns fan since 1987 and know every team that they have put on the court since then.  Jason Kidd just had a carrer year, lets put that first.  Jason Kidd has a team with a inside and outside presense while in Phoenix, he never had a a guy with a game with his back to the basket short of Antinio Mcdyess and headed for the hills after a pathetic showing in his only playoff series.  His 2 guards while he played for phoenix were all pretty pathetic or injured (Mario Elie, Penny Hardaway) and the best one he had was Kevin Johnson in his final year.  I give you that Shawn Marion and Cliff Robinson are basically Kenyon Martin and Keith Van Horn, but the Phoenix team is one without a Kerry Kittles or a Todd Mcullah or a bench.  

 

Stats never show real defense.  You can look at him being number 2 in steals, and thats a stat. But things like denying the ball, drawing charges, pressuring that ball...they all are things that don't show up in stats and Kidd is great at all of them.  And it is harder to play defense on a point guard than a front court player anyway(at least it takes alot more energy and alot more work).  Kidd is all defensive 1st team...Kidd has had to check Miller, Davis, Wesley, Anderson, Pierce so far in the playoffs and look at where they are.  

 

You still can't attest to these things...Kidd averaged nearly a triple double in this year.  A team that won 26 games last year is in the finals.  

 

Duncan put up impressive numbers BUT the Spurs had a better year LAST year.  He didn't do anything special this year that he didn't do last year or the year before.  If this was teh Most Consistant Player award, then go ahead Tim. But it is who was most valuble to thier team.  THere is a reason Jersy has picked in the top 5 of the draft for like 3-4 years in a row.  There is a reason noone wanted to play there.  Now they are in the finals.  Forget last year, what is the only thing that changed between this year and the team that won only 20 something games 2 years ago? What about the same team that plays this year that played a good chunk of their year together and only won like 5-10 games.  WHAT CHANGED?