Warned terrorist attacks before 9/11

[Guest ant_7000]

I kind of knew that terrorist were making threats before 9/11,and the FBI were giving the information to the government that a lot of muslims were enrolled in flight school, and Bin Laden were sending letters saying that something was going to happen and the government didn't do nothing.So my question is that if Bush and the government didn't sit on their hands and "Let them kill each other off" attitude could this terrorist attack could have been prevented?

[Guest Ripper]

They probably see 1000's of threats a week, and in hindsight, there might have been some signs, but there was noway that they could have prevented it.  

 

And as much as I loathe the Bush administration, you can't put all the blame on him.  Bin Laden was a known danger during the Clinton Administration.  They were known to be gaining power during the Bush Sr. administration.  You can't put the blame on the on the new administration.  It is moreso on the Clinton administration if anything. And coming from someone that liked the Clinton administration, that says a lot.

[Guest Some Guy]

If teh Gov't inspected flight schools based on large Muslim enrollment the Muslim groups would have been screaming "Racism" at the top of their lungs.  Our "Let them kill each other off" attitude is good, but it's not "let them kill us off".  If Bush could have prevented this attack he would have.  It's that simple.  bin Laden and his terrorist buddies had probably been planning this for more then teh 8 months that Bush was in office on 9/11, so maybe it was the Clinton administration sitting on their hands and strip mining the CIA and the military that *MIGHT* have been able to prevent teh loss of 3,000 lives.

The problem with the investigating these types of things is that 99% of all terrorism of this kind is done by Muslims, but it is considered racist to investigate a non-white.  teh one big terrorist act done by a white guy is used as evidence to contradict the fact that all the rest have been doen by Islamic radicals and people buy into that goofy logic. So rather than solving or prevetning a crime Police and Gov't have to spend much of their time dealing with accusations of racism, because Lord knows that all the white American men who dominate the Gov't are evil imperialist racists.

[Guest Ripper]

"The problem with the investigating these types of things is that 99% of all terrorism of this kind is done by Muslims, but it is considered racist to investigate a non-white.  teh one big terrorist act done by a white guy is used as evidence to contradict the fact that all the rest have been doen by Islamic radicals and people buy into that goofy logic."

 

Uh, no... that is not the case.  White men are responsible for quite a few acts of terrorism not just one.  

 

"So rather than solving or prevetning a crime Police and Gov't have to spend much of their time dealing with accusations of racism, because Lord knows that all the white American men who dominate the Gov't are evil imperialist racists."

 

You are basically trying to take away some americans freedoms because some of them are crazy.  Racial profiling is a racist measure.  It takes absolutely nothing but someones race and says that it makes them more of a criminal.  Whites committ most bank robberies...should all whites be investigated before they can make a deposit.  More whites are serial killers.  Should we just start taking all white men between the ages of 21-40 and put them under scrutiney??? It is ignorant.  And saying, "hey, some muslims are taking flying lessons, lets get em."   is not a way to solve the problem.  

 

Like I said, everything is clear in hindsight.

[Guest]

Racial profiling is a racist measure

No. Not at all. Not today. It is a fact that no member of al Qaeda will be a white female Jew in her 60s, or a middle-aged Japanese Shinto monk. We are under attack by a specific religious and ethnic group, and refusing to racially profile people according to such criteria is not just stupid but suicidal.

I have no problems with young Middle Eastern Moslem men being subjected to extraordinary scrutiny by the FBI if they act in a suspicious manner. I have no problems with their persons being more thoroughly searched and their identification being double-checked at airports. In fact I insist on it.

And I personally know a young Middle Eastern man who feels exactly the same way.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<"The problem with the investigating these types of things is that 99% of all terrorism of this kind is done by Muslims, but it is considered racist to investigate a non-white.  teh one big terrorist act done by a white guy is used as evidence to contradict the fact that all the rest have been doen by Islamic radicals and people buy into that goofy logic."

 

Uh, no... that is not the case.  White men are responsible for quite a few acts of terrorism not just one.  >>>

 

 

When it comes to hi-jacking planes, white guys don't have an illustrious history of doing that.

 

 

<<<"So rather than solving or prevetning a crime Police and Gov't have to spend much of their time dealing with accusations of racism, because Lord knows that all the white American men who dominate the Gov't are evil imperialist racists."

 

You are basically trying to take away some americans freedoms because some of them are crazy.  Racial profiling is a racist measure.  It takes absolutely nothing but someones race and says that it makes them more of a criminal.>>>

 

 

It absolutely is not racist. It's concentrating one's resources on people who will probably commit the crimes.

 

Remember the hue and cry over "Racial profiling" on NJ interstates over speeding?

 

Guess what? Blacks SPEED more than any other group on the NJ interstates. It was not racist to "target" them.

 

 

<<<Whites committ most bank robberies...should all whites be investigated before they can make a deposit.>>>

 

 

No---but if a bank robbery occurs, cops would be idiots to not focus on white males more than any other group.

 

 

<<<More whites are serial killers.  Should we just start taking all white men between the ages of 21-40 and put them under scrutiney???>>>

 

 

If the crime is committed, then again, the cops would be idiots to not focus on white males.

 

 

<<<It is ignorant.  And saying, "hey, some muslims are taking flying lessons, lets get em."   is not a way to solve the problem.  >>>

 

 

Well, that they weren't interested in learning how to LAND should have raised eyebrows---but the U.S gets thousands of threats a day. You can't go after all of them.

                      -=Mike

[Guest Ripper]

I'm sorry, but let me make sure I have this right.  Scrutinizing a person due to thier skin color or religious background ISN"T  racism.  How do you guys figure?  Wait...it isn't...it is using stereotypes which isn't better by any account.   It is easy for a white male or female to be all for racial profiling.  In all liklihood, you will never have to experience it.  Opening the door for racial profiling on Arab americans would open it for racial profiling for all ethinicitys and reliegions.  And you guys would have no right to be against it then, because you are saying it is cool to do it to Arab americans.  

 

And while white men don't have a history of hijacking planes, Mike, they do have a long history of simply blowing shit up.  Be it pipe bombs, mail bombs, explosive wired vehicles, churches, what ever, if something blows up in this country, we all know what race is usually ends up responsible.  When was the last time you had a hard time sending a package, renting a car.  How many hardware stores have the white customers being scrutinized when they buy items that could be possibly used for a bomb.  If they did,  they would be up in arms about how freedoms are being comprimised because a small percentage is breaking crimes.  Well, the exact same thing is happening here.  A minute about of Muslim/Arabs are extremist that want to use violence to make a statement. You are saying its ok to put them all under wraps because of the few.  Are you willing to be put under the same scrutiny?? If you are, then fine, you have  abasis for argument, but I find it highly doubtful that you would enjoy being the subject of racial profiling.  

 

And Mike...how do you know that blacks speed more.  You know that the blacks were being pulled over more, which is kinda the basis for the whole racial profiling outcry.  The stats might be there, but the argument is that they were gotten through the profiling...you can't really be sure.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

And saying, "hey, some muslims are taking flying lessons, lets get em."   is not a way to solve the problem

 

Judging by the way the terrorist acted at the flight schools should of been suspicious. The flight school in Minnesota thought Moussai was trouble and he was in custody before 9-11.

[Guest]

I don't agree with racially profiling motorists and deliberately pulling over black men. That is racism, because it discriminates against and penalises people based solely and unfairly on the colour of their skin.

 

Subjecting young Middle Eastern men to greater scrutiny than that endured by Chinese grandmothers is not racism. It is eminently sound policy. Being black doesn't make one more likely to speed or steal a car. Being an Arab, being young, being male, and being Moslem DOES make one more likely to be an al Qaeda terrorist.

A minute about of Muslim/Arabs are extremist that want to use violence to make a statement.

This is true. The overwhelming majority of young Moslem Arab men will not commit suicide attacks on the United States.

BUT no other nationality, religion, age group, or gender will. Whatever the proportion, this is the ONLY group we need to scrutinise in the hunt for al Qaeda terrorists. Scrutinising other groups is a complete waste of time.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I'm sorry, but let me make sure I have this right.  Scrutinizing a person due to thier skin color or religious background ISN"T  racism.  How do you guys figure?>>>

 

 

You figure out who is most likely to commit a crime. Thus, you focus your resources on the most likely culprit.

 

Let's say somebody murders somebody via strangulation---the cops would be idiots to look for women.

 

 

<<<Wait...it isn't...it is using stereotypes which isn't better by any account.>>>

 

 

Of course, profiling WORKS---and it's not like we have waves of INNOCENT people getting arrested.

 

 

<<<It is easy for a white male or female to be all for racial profiling.  In all liklihood, you will never have to experience it.>>>

 

 

Of course, whites commit, by ratio, fewer crimes than other minorities.

 

 

<<<Opening the door for racial profiling on Arab americans would open it for racial profiling for all ethinicitys and reliegions.>>>

 

 

Yup, it would.

 

 

<<<And you guys would have no right to be against it then, because you are saying it is cool to do it to Arab americans.  >>>

 

 

That's right. If they start having mass arrests of innocent people, I MIGHT be more concerned.

 

 

<<<And while white men don't have a history of hijacking planes, Mike, they do have a long history of simply blowing shit up.>>>

 

 

Which, when discussing the current profiling at airports, means squat.

 

 

<<<Be it pipe bombs, mail bombs, explosive wired vehicles, churches, what ever, if something blows up in this country, we all know what race is usually ends up responsible.>>>

 

 

True. By the same token, if there's a crack dealer out there, you can rest assured you have a good idea what they look like. And if you have a child complaining that some guy in a black suit molested him, you can guess where the guy can be found.

 

 

<<<When was the last time you had a hard time sending a package, renting a car.>>>

 

 

Wow, hitting irrelevancy now. Why do I have no problem sending packages? Because the post office looks for suspicious packages with specific criteria.

 

 

<<<How many hardware stores have the white customers being scrutinized when they buy items that could be possibly used for a bomb.  If they did,  they would be up in arms about how freedoms are being comprimised because a small percentage is breaking crimes.  Well, the exact same thing is happening here.>>>

 

 

Well, except that you'd have to do that at every store because you can make bombs out of most everything.

 

Let's remember what is being discussed here: Airport security focusing on young Arab males to CHECK FOR WEAPONS. Not exactly Bull Connor and his street dogs.

 

An inability to recognize that there are DEGREES of everything kills your attempts at debate.

 

 

<<<A minute about of Muslim/Arabs are extremist that want to use violence to make a statement.>>>

 

 

Minute? Hate to break it to you, but it isn't THAT rare.

 

 

<<<You are saying its ok to put them all under wraps because of the few.>>>

 

 

Yup. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying.

 

 

<<<Are you willing to be put under the same scrutiny??>>>

 

 

Absolutely. If I fly (I never do that, mind you) and a security guy asks to check my luggage, I won't bitch and moan. I'll do it.

 

 

<<<If you are, then fine, you have  abasis for argument, but I find it highly doubtful that you would enjoy being the subject of racial profiling.  >>>

 

 

Again, you're discussing the cops looking closely at certain groups.

 

You're not discussing mass arrests of totally innocent people.

                              -=Mike

 

...Who wonders what Rep. McKinney will say about this. Probably something that a not-too-bright rock could say better.

 

And Mike...how do you know that blacks speed more.  You know that the blacks were being pulled over more, which is kinda the basis for the whole racial profiling outcry.  The stats might be there, but the argument is that they were gotten through the profiling...you can't really be sure.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I don't agree with racially profiling motorists and deliberately pulling over black men. That is racism, because it discriminates against and penalises people based solely and unfairly on the colour of their skin.>>>

 

 

However, Marney, what if they really were speeding? What is wrong with punishing wrong-doers. To use the NJ example, if the police were completely color-blind, blacks would STILL be pulled over more than anybody else because they sped more than anybody else.

 

 

<<<Subjecting young Middle Eastern men to greater scrutiny than that endured by Chinese grandmothers is not racism. It is eminently sound policy. Being black doesn't make one more likely to speed or steal a car. Being an Arab, being young, being male, and being Moslem DOES make one more likely to be an al Qaeda terrorist.>>>

 

 

Heck, they complain about them checking out young Arab men who bought one-way tickets with cash---that is as big a red flag as I can imagine.

              -=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

And Mike...how do you know that blacks speed more.>>>

 

 

WELL, as luck would have it, the NJ Dept. of Transportation was doing a study of driving patterns and their results were released when the uproar hit.

 

 

<<<You know that the blacks were being pulled over more, which is kinda the basis for the whole racial profiling outcry.  The stats might be there, but the argument is that they were gotten through the profiling...you can't really be sure. >>>

 

 

When the gov't runs these studies, they do a good job of factoring in the variables.

               -=Mike

[Guest]

However, Marney, what if they really were speeding? What is wrong with punishing wrong-doers. To use the NJ example, if the police were completely color-blind, blacks would STILL be pulled over more than anybody else because they sped more than anybody else.

No problems there, Mike. I'm with you on that one. If a specific group gets pulled over more often because members of the group speed more often, fine. If they're getting pulled over more often because the police ignore white speeders, not fine. I haven't read the study, and I don't know how credible it is, so I have no real comment here. I just don't see it as comparable to the security checks on young Arab men - which, as you said, aren't very burdensome anyway. I fly quite a lot, and my bags have been thoroughly searched more than once. What's the problem? If you don't have anything to hide, you shouldn't care.

[Guest Ripper]

Mike, mass people wouldn't be arrested, but mass people having their freedoms taken is the same thing.  You are all for it because you will never have to go through it.  I have been racially profiled and it is alot more than annoying.  It takes away everything this country is suppose to be about.  

 

 

"<<<A minute about of Muslim/Arabs are extremist that want to use violence to make a statement.>>>

 

 

Minute? Hate to break it to you, but it isn't THAT rare."

 

WHAT!!! Mike, you are kidding right.  Are you saying that you really believe that there are more Arab extremist than there are non violent Arabs.  You can't really believe that.  

 

"An inability to recognize that there are DEGREES of everything kills your attempts at debate."

 

And you aren't seeing that once you allow freedoms to be lifted, you are opening the doors to alot more.  If you are saying that racial profiling should only be used at airports, then fine, but how much would that have really helped in the 9-11 incidents.  No, you would have expand racial profiling even more to have affects in something like the 9-11 thing.  once you do that, you are just letting the flood gates open.  And once again, none of this would matter to you because chances are you wouldn't be subjected to what other minorities are subjected to.

 

Its kinda disturbing how quickly this country is willing to take away a entire race of peoples rights as long as it really won't affect them.

[Guest ant_7000]

Oh believe me racial profiling is so annoying, sometimes me and my friends get stop for nothing, like this one time me and my friends where going to the liquor store we were underage at the time true enough its illegal, but anyway my friend was driving getting ready to park, but the cops drove past us so we decided not to park and just go to another store, so were at the different liquor store up the street about a mile and the same cops we saw at the previous store followed us and one of my friends just went in the store the cops thought they had us caught up but my friend comes out of the store with a bag full of candy. Since the cops couldn't get us on underage drinking so he smells smoke and we were smoking cigarittes but the cop claims he smells weed which we didn't have and tells us to get out of the car searched us and then had the nerve to call the K9 unit but didn't us them. I can tell other stories how I or someone else of minority get profiled and harassed over nothing sometimes, thats why I am so against it.

[Guest]

btw, any, you last post was the dumbest most ignorant piece of shit I ever read in my life.  If commit crimes such as underage drinking or smoking weed or anything, and you get caught, you have no right at all to bitch.  You are the reason are judicial system is fucked up.  You call that shit racial profiling, I call that you being a fuckin idiot.  you do the fuckin crime you do the fuckin time thats it.  How in the world can you complain in the least when you admitted you were trying to score some liquor?  I can see if you were just minding your business, but no, you were BREAKING THE FUCKIN LAW.  your an idiot that is it.  Next time you want to complain, complain about how the education system  didn't teach you to think properly and left you to be a stupid asshole.

 

--Rob

[Guest Crazy Dan]

Rob, I really think you should at least edit your postings before you post them, because you kinda come out looking just as dumb as the person your are ripping on.  Just an observation.   Learn how to use proper grammer.

[Guest]

"Proper grammer?" Heh.

[Guest TJH]

The true ignorant view is supposing that people like Congressmen and old ladies should be stopped and searched before entering planes. The fact is some people are more likely to commit crimes than others. Statistics prove that minorities are more likely to commit crime. It is an absolute fact.

[Guest goodhelmet]

"Statistics prove that minorities are more likely to commit crime. It is an absolute fact. "

 

Actually, that's NOT a fact. The fact is minorities are more likely to be CONVICTED for a crime than a white counterpart. That's a fact jack!

[Guest Ripper]

Well, rip on ant all you want.. i have been stopped while walking, riding in cars and plenty of other things and harrased.  I have been stopped at the train station, had guns drawn on me because I "fit the discription of a person they were chasing"  while they were holding me, they were periodically taking other black males out of the crowds and searching and detaining them.  Funny thing is, i am 5'6" with afro, the guy next to me was abou 6'0 feet with a bald head, another was abou 5'7' with cornrows, and all of our skins tones were amazingly different.  The only info they had was a young black male wereing a t-shirt and jeans.  What crime did I committ.  

 

I don't smoke, don't drink and don't committ crimes, but I have been stopped because they thought I was selling weed, I've been stopped because I was seen coming from a liquor store(with no liquor stores anywhere around mind you) and stopped for so many crimes, sometimes I have to wonder if I was guilty.  It is ridicuolus.  And approval of racial profiling to me is saying that its alright to comprimise the rights of a large group so that you MIGHT find the one.

[Guest]

I was not trying to say that minorities don;t get shitted on with the racial profiling.  I was just stating that if you are breaking the law, and then the shit happens, you deserve what you get cause you shouldn't have been doing it.  

 

--Rob

[Guest ant_7000]

Hold on Rob, True enough we were getting liquor but point is we didnt go inside the first store that time and the cops didn't have nothing else to do so they FOLLOWED us a mile and a half to another store so we decided not to get any liquor when we arrive to the second store and when the cops check our bags we didnt have any liquor on us so the cops tried their hardest to get something on us, so they accused us of having weed and then they searched us and called K9 unit for backup. They search us for weed and liquor that we didn't have which was bullshit. Here's another story me and a friend were walking up the street, and a cop pulls up in front of us and accuse me of breaking someone's window when I was nowhere near the area where the window was damaged, and say I fit the discription so he search me and calls backup thinking me and my friend going do something to him, which was riduclous because we were corperating and wasn't acting hostile. But anyway you wouldn't understand because it doesn't happened to you so thats why your so upset at me but thats how it is.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<Mike, mass people wouldn't be arrested, but mass people having their freedoms taken is the same thing.>>>

 

 

Checking somebody for security reasons is not taking away their "rights". It's protecting EVERYBODY else's right not to have some monkey blow up their plane or plow it into a building.

 

The rights of the many SHOULD supercede the rights of the few.

 

 

<<<You are all for it because you will never have to go through it.  I have been racially profiled and it is alot more than annoying.  It takes away everything this country is suppose to be about.  >>>

 

 

In what way? You say you've been profiled---how do you KNOW this?

 

 

"<<<A minute about of Muslim/Arabs are extremist that want to use violence to make a statement.>>>

 

 

<<<Minute? Hate to break it to you, but it isn't THAT rare."

 

<<<WHAT!!! Mike, you are kidding right.  Are you saying that you really believe that there are more Arab extremist than there are non violent Arabs.  You can't really believe that.>>>

 

 

I FIRMLY believe that. When you have a hard time finding ANY Arabs who will say, outright, that homicide bombing is WRONG---then you have a group of people with some serious problems.  

 

 

<<<"An inability to recognize that there are DEGREES of everything kills your attempts at debate."

 

And you aren't seeing that once you allow freedoms to be lifted, you are opening the doors to alot more.  If you are saying that racial profiling should only be used at airports, then fine, but how much would that have really helped in the 9-11 incidents.>>>

 

 

How much? Hmm, a bunch of Middle Eastern males---most with one-way tickets and many paid for in cash.

 

Gee, MIGHT have derailed the plan altogether.

 

 

<<<No, you would have expand racial profiling even more to have affects in something like the 9-11 thing.  once you do that, you are just letting the flood gates open.  And once again, none of this would matter to you because chances are you wouldn't be subjected to what other minorities are subjected to.>>>

 

 

See, when I get pulled over by a cop for speeding--I don't ASSUME it's anyting racial. I assume it's because they THOUGHT I was speeding.

 

I don't choose to condemn people for doing their job to the best of their abilities.

 

 

<<<Its kinda disturbing how quickly this country is willing to take away a entire race of peoples rights as long as it really won't affect them. >>>

 

 

Again, what rights are being denied them? You can't really explain which right is NOT being protected.

                     -=Mike

[Guest RetroRob215]

<<<WHAT!!! Mike, you are kidding right.  Are you saying that you really believe that there are more Arab extremist than there are non violent Arabs.  You can't really believe that.>>>

 

 

I FIRMLY believe that. When you have a hard time finding ANY Arabs who will say, outright, that homicide bombing is WRONG---then you have a group of people with some serious problems.

Mike, exactly how many Arabs have you spoken to about homicide bombings?  You know what is funny?  I have spoken to an Arab about the topic and they are FIRMLY against it, but you just said that there are HARDLY ANY Arabs who feel that way.  

 

Judging from the posts you have made in this thread, you seem  like the kind of person who makes generalizations and is fast to judge someone based the way they look, not based on the kind person they really are.  Am I right in thinking that?

[Guest Some Guy]

Oh believe me racial profiling is so annoying, sometimes me and my friends get stop for nothing, like this one time me and my friends where going to the liquor store we were underage at the time true enough its illegal, but anyway my friend was driving getting ready to park, but the cops drove past us so we decided not to park and just go to another store, so were at the different liquor store up the street about a mile and the same cops we saw at the previous store followed us.

That is suspicious behavior.  A car with a few young kids who pull into a Liquer Store parking lot and then immediatly pull out of the lot and drive down the street at the site of a Cop.  He probably thought you were going to rob the place or at the least try to illegally buy beer.

 

Guess what? I'm white and I've been followed around a store many times because they thought I was going to steal something, I've been pulled over for no reason other than being young and out at night, I've been searched on the side of the road for just being a kid with a soemwhat unfounded bad reputation.  Do you know why?  It's because males my age (18-25) commit the most crime and black males of that age group commit the majority of that crime, that's why they are harrassed more and it doesn't only happen to just minorities.

 

Blacks make up about 12.5% of the population of America and commit over 50% of the violent crime and over 40% of all murders.  Those statistics suck but they are pretty acurate.  There is why profiling is important.  The police can compile stats and then they know who are the most likely suspects.

[Guest]

I have spoken to an Arab about the topic and they are FIRMLY against it

The simple fact that you've spoken to the Arab yourself indicates that you spoke to an Arab in the United States, ie, an Arab who is likely to be at least moderate in his religious and cultural prejudices. I get the strong impression that Mike is talking about Arabs in the Middle East. I've lived in that region, and in the context of its inhabitants Mike is absolutely correct. Even in America, many of the supposedly representative Moslem groups refused to condemn outright the 9/11 attacks, instead using hedging, general statements like, "We deplore all violence everywhere" - the equivalent of, "In some sense you deserved it." If Arabs and Moslems as cultural and religious groups condemn suicide bombings, where are the fatwas calling for Osama bin Laden's death? Or Yasser Arafat's? In every corner of the Moslem world, the silence is deafening.

At most, Moslem religious leaders will say, "Yes, the attacks were terrible, BUT..."

And at that point I don't care what else they have to say. When you're dealing with terrorists, there is no "but." There is only evil, and the destruction of evil.

[Guest RetroRob215]

Yes, she does live in the United States now, but she was with family in the Middle East for the entire summer.  I'm not positive, but I think she did live in the Middle East about 2 to 4 years ago.

[Guest]

There ya go, Rob. Also, women tend to be far more sensible than men. That holds true for Arabian women too.

[Guest Some Guy]

There ya go, Rob. Also, women tend to be far more sensible than men. That holds true for Arabian women too.

Huh?