Why must they always do this to Jericho . . .

[zyn081 0]

Hope I am not going to get flamed for this or in trouble, cause maybe I should have informed a mod before I did this but well, I will learn for next time.

 

Ive been following the essential DVD thread and think that it has moved off topic with respect to Jericho. I was thinking of starting up a thread on Jericho's character yesterday, so Ive take bits of that thread and the rest is viewable here:

 

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...0entry1910430

 

To make my point I am going to talk a bit about the wrestlers who are similar in terms of physique to Jericho and some of those with whom he has had major programmes with.

 

despite his carreer supposably being killed, notcie how chris jericho has been able to stay one of the most over guys on the roster.  Yes he should have won at wm 19, but I don't think that hurt him any more. if anything was to have killed him it would be his loss to trips at fully loaded 2000, but he stayed over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hes over because I personally perceive him as being a reasonable wrestler in the sense that he is plausable and is somebody that I could relate to. Hes not some over grown comic book manster on roids. Eddie and Benoit fall in the same boat. People can relate to them and say, Im his height, could be his build, he doesnt do way over the top things in the ring, hes an underdog.

 

A word on Benoit before I go. His career was shafted as soon as he stepped foot on WWE property. He was the unofficial WCW Champion. The E should have made a huge deal about this, and had him wrestle a prolonged story line with the WWE Champion at the time (out of curiousity, was it HHH?. If yes, then that explains why not).

 

I think the E have been very good to Eddie. Hes never got this much time and gold, and they have always has his back. I think Eddie is a pleasure to work with and really loves what he does, hence him always being near the top of the card and having good feuds.

 

But I digress.

 

Chris Jericho gets loud pops, yes. Doesn't mean he's over in the sense of being able to draw. People get those two things confused all the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He was never given a chance to draw. Even as the champion they had other things going on that was more focused on than him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Jericho in the E has always been made to look like somebodys bitch. People say The Rock put Jericho over. Yes, he did, kind of. But he did so the second time. IIRC, he squashed Jericho when he 1st came to the company. Also, Jericho was made to look like HHH's bitch and a slut gf of Steph. Backstage politics cutting him off at the knees, being made to look like a coward, never being put over, walking stephs dog or buying her cream or whatever he used to do, I mean come on. The only thing HHH ever did for him and remarkably so, was letting him take credit for injuring him. At WM 18, one of the poorest of all time IMHO, the main attraction was Hogan-Rock and not Jericho-HHH. The latter was a foregone conclusion of a squash.

 

Benoit and Eddie have also been the victims of being used as doormats, but Eddie to a much lesser extent. HHH has remarkbly be good to Benoit on the whole. Apart from what I said before about Benoit, Austin should have done the job for him when he came back, and not them having to concut him blaming and turning on Flair. Austin should have done the job to Eddie too. Hopefully, UT and JBL will make Benoit look credible on SD now. On a side note I think were going to get JBL, OJ & Orton vs Benoit, Hardcore & UT which isnt that bad and Eddie & Freinds vs Rey & Friends what with with Super Crazy, Psicosis, Juvi, Chavo, RVD and London being possibly involved. Makes sense IMHO for Batista as Champ to now go to SD.

 

who "draws" anymore? fans go to a wwe show to see the wwe, not one wrestler. its been a while since one guy was able to bring them in (IMO the last guy to effectively do that was Austin and you can argue rock to a lesser extent) and even then the hwole expereience is probably what sold tix.

 

and if you do believe this career death stuff, then the botched undisputed title reign and lame wm match was probably the final nail.

 

Though I enjoy him as a performer, I am not going to sit here and whine about how the guy I like isn't pushed enough, that's what makes me hate being a so called smark sometimes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

who "draws" anymore? fans go to a wwe show to see the wwe, not one wrestler.

 

For Smackdown, at least until he got drafted, Cena drew. Batista drew on Raw for a while, but then got the customary treatment, and that has probably stopped now.

 

(IMO the last guy to effectively do that was Austin and you can argue rock to a lesser extent) and even then the hwole expereience is probably what sold tix.

 

Make no mistake about it, Austin and Rock were the primary draws.

 

Though I enjoy him as a performer, I am not going to sit here and whine about how the guy I like isn't pushed enough, that's what makes me hate being a so called smark sometimes

 

So, you just want to sit there and take it, without voicing your displeasure?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree, no 1 single person draws any more. Austin and Rock were the last people to do that. Jerichos career was botched prior to the Undisputed Reign. Nobody saw him as being credible for the WCW Championship, let alone the Undisputed Title. In fact, the angle they ran was Jericho would never win the big one. But at WMX19 Jericho was ressurecting his career, and HBK nipped it again. HBK ruined Jerichos career for 3 years just as he did Harts for good. The only reason HBK let Benoit and Angle go over was because the company has more faith in them and it resulted in prolonged angles for him and the chance to go over later. HBK is bulletproof. It would have done nothing to him to let Jericho get the big WM win and then get his win or 2 back within 6 months down the line. He could have given Jericho a boost, instead of Jericho looking lost for most of that of year.

 

Regarding Cena and Batista HTQ, I hope your joking. I hope your not serious.

 

Like Jericholic82, I am a disgruntled Jericholic. And the point of this thread is this. Given his past in the WWE, why must the E always portray Jericho as a whiney heel for him to take a smell of a title shot. Why cant we have the fan loving over the top promo guy that the people love. Its only in this character that Jericho is really alive IMHO and credible. Jericho wont win at Vengence and I know that. Its too soon. But Jericho should have stayed face. Batista goes to SD as WHC and HHH gets the WWE Championship from Cena or whoever (come on guys, we all know that HHH just wanted a different belt over his shoulder and its only a matter of time). Then HHH should have done the right thing and done what he should have done ages ago and put Jericho over in the right way.

 

Jericho, the whiney heel as Champion. No thanks. And if I were you Jericho, I wouldnt accept such a deal either, cause youve got 3 years of nothing after it. He just wont be handle in the right way as so. Whiney heels never are unless their name is HHH or they are huge or 1 of Vinces creations. To give credit were credit is do, Eddie is being portrayed in the right way IMHO, as a sadistic heel. Jericho is the whiney lame ass heel who at the end of the day means chump.

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

Ah, you must of forgotten. Jericho was a whiny Cruiserweight champ in WCW and that's the way I liked him. Let's face it. There is hardly any competition in US for wrestling organizations and if you want to make money, you go to the WWE and if you want more freedom as a wrestler (I guess) TNA. Jericho like most of the rest of the roster is probably phoning it in right now. He'll collect his money and remember his brief run at the top.

[AndrewTS 0]

As long as Jericho's barely at the 6' mark, he's going to be playing the whiny Honky heel.

 

I think it's a moot argument anymore, since even Jericho's accepted that he's never going to be more than a upper midcarder, and despite all the "Jericho is bulletproof" claims, I don't feel anybody would ever view him as a legitimate title threat anymore.

[Guest Fook_Theta]

They would view him as a credible champ just like they viewed JBL, Deacon Batista, and I'm presuming both Edge and Christian. He just needs a new spin on his character and a major push. He definitely needs some creative juice which is the thing that kills him in the long run.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Maybe Jericho can't play anything else?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Jericho has been established as a fluffer for bigger stars, he can't be a main event guy any more. That's why the HBK WM 19 match is significant - it was his last 'big' feud that could have raised him to bigger and better things, but he lost it and went back down the card and back to being meaningless. He's been jerked around the card too much for too long; if he were to win the big title fans would expect him to lose it and go right back down to the midcard fighting for the IC title. If the fans expect him to lose it, then they can't be invested in his reign. They will have their guard up, and rightly so.

[Angle-plex 0]

Jericho right now is beyond stale because his character has been the same since 2000. His finisher, entrance, music, attire - nothing has changed. WWE seems to realize that he's stale, but they don't know why, so they turn him face/heel every couple of months thinking it will freshen up his character. It won't. I franky wouldn't WANT to see a Chris Jericho World Title run at the moment. His in-ring work isn't good enough to justify his stale character.

[AndrewTS 0]

That's a lie, Angle-plex. They remixed his music about 3 times! Plus he's gotten different ring and entrance attire! He wears more purple these days and has more purple in his entrance video.

 

...seriously though, he's not as bad as the Dudleys, but it's either the whiny heel character or the goofy face character, and WWE isn't going to let him do anything much different than those.

[Guest JMA]

That's one of the reasons I liked Jericho's match at One Night Stand, he wrestled a totally different style (his old style). I'd love to see the return of "Lionheart" Chris Jericho and the Liontamer.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I love how people can claim he he so stale and would never draw now when he CONSISTANTLY out pops 90% of th3 roster and is always Top 5 in th3 comapny for most over. Despite the fact he has never had a 1 on 1 Title match on a PPV since he lost his belt, th3 fans still cheer him. You give Jericho 3 weeks of build and a win over HHH, see what happens.

[tekcop 0]

I love how people can claim he he so stale and would never draw now when he CONSISTANTLY out pops 90% of th3 roster and is always Top 5 in th3 comapny for most over. Despite the fact he has never had a 1 on 1 Title match on a PPV since he lost his belt, th3 fans still cheer him. You give Jericho 3 weeks of build and a win over HHH, see what happens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rudo's already coverd this. Fans like him, but they don't expect him to win, and if he does they expect him to lose right afterwards. He'll never be taken seriously as a main eventer again.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I love how people can claim he he so stale and would never draw now when he CONSISTANTLY out pops 90% of th3 roster and is always Top 5 in th3 comapny for most over. Despite the fact he has never had a 1 on 1 Title match on a PPV since he lost his belt, th3 fans still cheer him. You give Jericho 3 weeks of build and a win over HHH, see what happens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rudo's already coverd this. Fans like him, but they don't expect him to win, and if he does they expect him to lose right afterwards. He'll never be taken seriously as a main eventer again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Rudo didn't cover anything, he just stated his unfounded opinion with no backing at all.

 

You don't know if the fans would buy him as a winner since they havn't given him a chance. Once they do that, fine. But untill then, its pure specualtion with no backing.

 

Ditto with the ME thing. Build him like they build anyone else, and we will see. There is no earthly reaosn why he SHOULDNT be given the chance.

 

My opinion is based on what is actually true right now. Yours is assumptions with no prior examples for it being true.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

They gave him a title reign, it sucked. It sucked for the same reasons it would suck today:

 

1) Jericho would be the #4 guy even with the title.

2) Everyone would expect Jericho to drop it to someone bigger and be a transition champion.

3) Jerichos character isn't strong enough to hold the title for long periods of time.

4) After the title reign, Jericho will drop down the card immediately as he always does when put in a high spot on the card.

 

Being in the "top 5" of the most over guys isn't a plus for Jericho, it's just a minus for everyone else. The WWE is in rough condition and hasn't created stars to get the crowd excited. So the crowd attaches itself to the guys who were once exciting back when wrestling was popular. Scotty 2 Hotty got huge pops when he returned and still gets people on their feet despite not doing anything for 5 years. Why? Because he was over in 2000. Besides Canada, Jericho's pops aren't at the level a top guys should be. Not even close. It's only because we have been accustomed to a lower-level of popularity over the past 3 or 4 years that he is in the top 5 of most over guys. Put his response in 2000, and he wouldn't be in the top 10 or even the top 15. Wow, he outpops Rosie, GIVE HIM THE TITLE AND WATCH HIM SOAR!

 

Even Once Red-Hot Batista couldn't get much from beating HHH because everyone knows HHH will get it back, so I doubt Jericho would get much from a 3 week build and a win from Trips.

 

Oh, and does ANYONE think Jericho will take the title from Cena?? Anyone? Anyone? Rrrsher? Hmm, I wonder why that is???

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I love how people can claim he he so stale and would never draw now when he CONSISTANTLY out pops 90% of th3 roster and is always Top 5 in th3 comapny for most over. Despite the fact he has never had a 1 on 1 Title match on a PPV since he lost his belt, th3 fans still cheer him. You give Jericho 3 weeks of build and a win over HHH, see what happens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Answer: Dick all.

[Guest Rrrsh]

No, of course I don't think he will win. He got a hot-shot build and he is obviously their to add star power to the match. As for your points.

 

A: With two brands, your dreaming.

B: With a proper build, that can easily be washed away

C: Your dead wrong

D: That is not a Jericho-Only thing, that can be said for anyone. So thats not a valid reason to push Wrestler A over him, if Wrestler A can fall to that fate.

 

 

As far as the Top 5 thing, Jericho is just plain entertaning. He dosn't always have hsi A game, but always has that potential. And when you switch from face to heel as much as Jericho has, the 2000 thing is weak.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Switching from a heel to a face for no reason, specifically when your new gimmick dictates that you don't care about anything, is pretty weak.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Yah, they better explain that. Or its just stupid.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

When people are giving a comedy character like Christian a better shot in the WWE Title match coming up than Jericho, it speaks volumes about how credible he is.

 

Now I know Rudo will disagree with me on this, but Benoit hasn't been treated as badly as people think. No, he's not booked to be at the level of HHH or Taker, but who is? Even Cena is taking a back seat to HHH at this point, and he's the only true star that the company has. But Benoit is booked as being credible in the ring, which is a huge advantage over someone like Jericho and it is why he's not seen as the jobber that Jericho is. Benoit has held his own against HHH, Angle, HBK, Austin, Rock and even Taker since coming into the company in 2000. He's not booked as a loser so much as he just gets screwed over a lot. He's had some bad periods (like spring 2003), but fans still buy him as a legitimate threat. He's not at perma-main event level, but he's the top wrestler in the next tier. People believe that Benoit can beat JBL, whereas nobody would give Jericho a chance against him. He's done well all things considered. Look at what happened to Dean Malenko.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

No, of course I don't think he will win. He got a hot-shot build and he is obviously their to add star power to the match.

 

And yet 3 weeks with HHH would??? Jericho is there simply because they have nothing else for him.

 

As for your points.

 

A: With two brands, your dreaming.

 

See Benoit, Chris. 2004. HHH, HBK, Kane, BENOIT.

 

B: With a proper build, that can easily be washed away

 

You'd have to get rid of every "name" on the roster for that to happen, to the point to where Robert Conway is the next in line for a title shot. Not easy at all. We're talking about 5 years of history to "wash away".

 

C: Your dead wrong

 

Why does Chris Jericho wrestle? What's his motivation? Why would he even want to carry the title anymore?

 

D: That is not a Jericho-Only thing, that can be said for anyone. So thats not a valid reason to push Wrestler A over him, if Wrestler A can fall to that fate.

 

It doesn't happen to Hunter. It didn't happen to Rock, Austin, Brock. Hell, even HBK and Angle to a point. The mark of a true star isn't that they hold the title, it's if they manage to stay in the spotlight _after_ they lose the title. Jericho, on SO many occasions (rising up in 2000 until Fullyloaded, then shot back down the card, rising up after WM 17 w. Benoit and against Austin at KOTR, then shot back down the card, rising up to win the undisputed title at Vengeance, shot back down the card after WM 18 (wasn't even on the next PPV!), HHH needed to fill the void for a HIAC and tossed Jericho around, shot back down, then against Michaels at WM 19, shot back down afterwards... and that's been about it in terms of high profile feuds) went up and back down the card. Actually, I think more than ANYONE, Jericho has done this (maybe Benoit and Angle...hmm). Going into a title match, who is more likely to be shot back down the card - Jericho, who has done it numerous times, or say Chris Masters, who hasn't done it once. Or Hassan. You can say it with anybody, but with most guys there's a chance -even if it's 1%- that they could stay up the card. With Jericho, it's a guarantee.

 

The reason to not push him is because the fans would have their guard up moreso with Jericho than anyone else.

 

As far as the Top 5 thing, Jericho is just plain entertaning. He dosn't always have hsi A game, but always has that potential. And when you switch from face to heel as much as Jericho has, the 2000 thing is weak.

 

So you admit that Jerichos pop isn't that strong?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Benoit hasn't been rendered sterile like Jericho when it comes to believability, but I'm someone who believed the guy could have actually carried the company and been the #1 star, and any potential of that was killed in 2004 when he went to RAW. I think, if they continue on doing what they have been doing since Summerslam 04 with Benoit (having him put over all the "newer" guys, something that Taker, Austin, Rock, and HHH should have done 5 years ago) he'd be Jericho'd by fall or winter. Benoit needs a lil more "protection", IMO. He hasn't really had a good feud since... um... ??? If they don't give him anything interesting (and being on Smackdown certainly limits that, at least on RAW he had Sheldon Benjamin) and if his ring work continues to suffer, then I see the crowd interest diminishing for him.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Should I be surprised that people still confuse a someone getting a pop with someone being over?

 

Nah. I should just consider the intelligence of the person getting confused, and feel sorry for them.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Hey come on now. Hogan got huge pops in 2002 and his title run was great for business.

[CanadianChick 0]

If you're Vince though, how do you tell the difference between being over and getting big pops? Because sometimes, I wonder how he decides who gets pushed, especially when the said person has no evidence backing them up that anyone gives two shits about them...

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Vince usually pushes the guys he wants to push. There is the odd occasion where Vince hears the pop of the crowd at a certain time and place and will be motivated by it - especially if it catches him off guard. How you tell the difference between the regular pop and the money pop? Well, there is the intensity of the pop, the context of the pop, and the guy himself, not to mention the secondary things like Merch sales, Autograph turnout, signs, etc.

 

Hulk Hogan was near 50 when he was the most over guy on the show, the fans loved to see him, but it was clear that the fans didn't necessarily pay to see his PPV's as champ or tune into the television shows with him as champ. So, in that case, the fans wanted to see him but they didn't want to see him as the top guy.

 

Jericho may be in the "top 5" of over guys, but the intensity of the pop he gets isn't really there. Watching the 10 man tag from Texas in 2000, you really notice how there's a big difference between the crowd heat then and now. You just don't get people jumping up and down for him any more. You don't get that for most, if not all, of the guys now. I think Cena had something when he went into the crowd, his chain gang, and got them all going, but for some reason he stopped that. If the crowd goes bonkers for a guy, there is a good chance they'll pay to see him.

 

But they went bonkers for Eugene and I don't think anyone would really pay to see him. So the guy in question does matter. You can't just look at one thing and make the call, you actually *gasp* have to think. Which is why what Rrrsh was saying was funny to me, because he's just going by "top 5 over" when the realities of the situation aren't being factored in.

 

And you know what? Vince has a marketing team. They can easily to market research and find out which guy is the right guy. I, personally, don't think the WWE does enough Market Research (that goes for most, if not all, wrestling companies out there, actually) especially with the resources they have. After every show they should be gathering fans together to get a clear picture of what is working and what isn't. They should be looking at patterns, they should be finding correleations, they should have crowd reaction down to a science and they clearly aren't doing that because they rely on cheap heat so much.

 

But, in the end, Vince pushes the guys he wants and thinks will get over most based on his past experiences. "Big guy with muscles" = "Hulk Hogan", and he just throws guys out there hoping something will stick.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Even if Vince did do a big market research survey, chances are if it didn't agree with his point of view, he'd just bin it and go his own way anyway.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It's not just about a "big market research survey" because they did that before, it's about a constant survey. It's about continual feedback. The WWE doesn't do that. They have feedback on their website, and they already dismiss the internet fans' opinions already so what does it matter? What I'm talking about means a change in perspective, which I know is unlikely, but if they started to take the approach of kaizen (oooh RRR bustin it out), then going their own way wouldn't even be an option.

 

Did I say "unlikely"? I meant impossible.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

They're going to go their own way anyway, and whatever feedback they get that didn't jive what their own mindset would just get dismissed as the people not knowing what they're talking about. They're so insular right now, and have been getting more and more so, that unless someone inside the bubble suddenly 'gets it', then nothing is going to change.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

"Hey come on now. Hogan got huge pops in 2002 and his title run was great for business."

 

Are you a fucking idiot?

 

Seriously, Hogan's title win was "good" and "received a good pop" at Backlash, but look at this:

 

1) The HHH/Hogan match was awful.

2) Once the fans realized they'd be getting awful Hogan matches, they groaned. Uh, Regal Vs. Hogan Raw main event? :::piss break:::

 

Hogan's "nostalgia run" would've worked just as well without the ridiculous notion of him winning the title. It devalued the title, and made WWF/E look like hypocrites. JR and Lawler went from bashing WCW's "washed up old men in a cage" fighting for a title to BLOWING THEIR LOAD over Hogan some 5 years later doing the same thing.

 

The WWE Title scene from January 2002 - Vengeance 2002 was absolutely awful. Perhaps the best thing to come from that, which I can't believe I'm saying, would be Jeff friggin' Hardy and Taker's ladder match, which was medicore, but holds a place in some people's hearts due to the awful nature of everything else in the title scene at that time.

 

To summarize:

 

Hogan's pops were huge when HE PLAYED A HEEL a month BEFORE his title win. You putting the title win and his pops together is silly.

 

And good for business? Prove this. By the time the next "BIG NAME" PPV (SummerSlam 2002) rolled around, Hogan was kicked to the curb...guess why? Because they wanted to *Gasp* PUT ON A GOOD SHOW...and...*GASP*...get a good buyrate!

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

I thought the ECW PPV was a good step in listening to your audience especially if it got 800K buys. I think if the draft is a bust and nothing changes, that's when the company will hit rock bottom

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yeah, they're retarded, BUT, if they _did_ do what I say, then it would show they already "got it", because a continual commitment to improvement (through customer feedback..oh god, I'm sounding like my Quality teacher) is something that they'd -in the current stupor- would never do. They do shit like hiring "consultants" and then doing a 2 week survey, and then ignore everything (including the consultants giving up because the show is such a mess) because their initial investment was so low that they could afford to ignore it. If they did a 6 month survey, or a year-long survey, or a ever-evolving survey, then they'd be committing lots of time and money towards something that they would _have to_ use. It would be the Mark Henry/Big Show of market research .

 

It's great how the only discussion we can have is on the degree of how stupid the WWE brass are.