Is Shawn Michaels this generation's Ric Flair?

[Guest JMA]

The only "Shawn bias" on here is coming from you and the other HBK-fanboys.  You're simply too blinded in your fandom that you won't listen to reasonable discussion about him and his many flaws as well as his strenghts.

 

Therefor, i'm going to give up even attempting to get through to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good call. I'd recommend putting ALL fanboys on ignore (not just the HBK ones). It'll make reading threads like these a lot easier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I swear the collective IQ level of the board drops with each post people like that make. I don't know how they manage to type anything at all from the pain they have to be in from their knuckles scraping along the ground.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't argue with you there. But it's not just the HBK fanboys--it's the fanboys in general. These are the people who get hostile even if you offer a minor critique of their favorite wrestler. I find it easier to just not respond to them at all.

 

For the record, I think Shawn is a great worker. I just don't think that he's the best like some fans like to claim. I look at both Austin and Bret (his contemporaries) as being better.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The only "Shawn bias" on here is coming from you and the other HBK-fanboys.  You're simply too blinded in your fandom that you won't listen to reasonable discussion about him and his many flaws as well as his strenghts.

 

Therefor, i'm going to give up even attempting to get through to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good call. I'd recommend putting ALL fanboys on ignore (not just the HBK ones). It'll make reading threads like these a lot easier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I swear the collective IQ level of the board drops with each post people like that make. I don't know how they manage to type anything at all from the pain they have to be in from their knuckles scraping along the ground.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the record, I think Shawn's a great worker. I just don't think that he's the best like some fans like to claim. I look at both Austin and Bret (his contemporaries) as being better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To me, Shawn is a good worker, whose ego gets in the way of him being a great worker. As a performer he can be one of the best, but as a wrestler, and there is a big difference, he's below average.

[Guest JMA]

The only "Shawn bias" on here is coming from you and the other HBK-fanboys.  You're simply too blinded in your fandom that you won't listen to reasonable discussion about him and his many flaws as well as his strenghts.

 

Therefor, i'm going to give up even attempting to get through to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good call. I'd recommend putting ALL fanboys on ignore (not just the HBK ones). It'll make reading threads like these a lot easier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I swear the collective IQ level of the board drops with each post people like that make. I don't know how they manage to type anything at all from the pain they have to be in from their knuckles scraping along the ground.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the record, I think Shawn's a great worker. I just don't think that he's the best like some fans like to claim. I look at both Austin and Bret (his contemporaries) as being better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To me, Shawn is a good worker, whose ego gets in the way of him being a great worker. As a performer he can be one of the best, but as a wrestler, and there is a big difference, he's below average.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking of that, I thought it was kind of weird how he put Hogan down the night after their match. Why would he shake Hogan's hand if we was just going to put him down the next night? It makes no sense in terms of the storyline.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The only "Shawn bias" on here is coming from you and the other HBK-fanboys.  You're simply too blinded in your fandom that you won't listen to reasonable discussion about him and his many flaws as well as his strenghts.

 

Therefor, i'm going to give up even attempting to get through to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good call. I'd recommend putting ALL fanboys on ignore (not just the HBK ones). It'll make reading threads like these a lot easier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I swear the collective IQ level of the board drops with each post people like that make. I don't know how they manage to type anything at all from the pain they have to be in from their knuckles scraping along the ground.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the record, I think Shawn's a great worker. I just don't think that he's the best like some fans like to claim. I look at both Austin and Bret (his contemporaries) as being better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To me, Shawn is a good worker, whose ego gets in the way of him being a great worker. As a performer he can be one of the best, but as a wrestler, and there is a big difference, he's below average.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking of that, I thought it was kind of weird how he put Hogan down the night after their match. Why would he shake Hogan's hand if we was just going to put him down the next night? It makes no sense in terms of the storyline.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't done for storyline. It was done for ego.

[Guest JMA]

The only "Shawn bias" on here is coming from you and the other HBK-fanboys.  You're simply too blinded in your fandom that you won't listen to reasonable discussion about him and his many flaws as well as his strenghts.

 

Therefor, i'm going to give up even attempting to get through to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good call. I'd recommend putting ALL fanboys on ignore (not just the HBK ones). It'll make reading threads like these a lot easier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I swear the collective IQ level of the board drops with each post people like that make. I don't know how they manage to type anything at all from the pain they have to be in from their knuckles scraping along the ground.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the record, I think Shawn's a great worker. I just don't think that he's the best like some fans like to claim. I look at both Austin and Bret (his contemporaries) as being better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To me, Shawn is a good worker, whose ego gets in the way of him being a great worker. As a performer he can be one of the best, but as a wrestler, and there is a big difference, he's below average.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking of that, I thought it was kind of weird how he put Hogan down the night after their match. Why would he shake Hogan's hand if we was just going to put him down the next night? It makes no sense in terms of the storyline.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't done for storyline. It was done for ego.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what I thought. It's too bad he didn't stay heel.

[Guest Ray]

God, this topic is awful. It's as if you gathered up every inane criticism of Shawn Michaels from the last five years and regurgitated them just for the hell of it. Get some original ideas or debate something new for fucks sake.

 

The idea that Shawn Michaels doesn't know how to sell is laughable. Do you know how WWF-style matches are worked? He's a babyface. Faces start out hot, lose control and get beat up, then make a fiery emotional comeback. They all do it. It's a trademark of the style. He doesn't just "no-sell" out of the blue, he teases comebacks leading up to it and hits a series of moves before it. He's not "no-selling," he's fighting his way back into the match and getting the crowd ready for the finish. That's what good workers do.

 

Why is it bad? Realism? Pro wrestling - especially the WWF - is inherently unrealistic. A nip-up is no more unrealistic than an irish whip, and I don't see any of you complaing about the latter. Selling should suit a wrestler's character. Shawn Michaels isn't stupid. He knows exactly what he's doing. He knows what his character is (as a face: a fiery athlete who will never quit because he's full of heart, and as a heel: a cocky asshole who nips-up out of arrogance) and he knows his job is to get the fans involved.

 

And Steve Austin (who is my favorite wrestler, by the way) was never better than decent as a "technical wrestler." His strengths were storytelling and characterization in brawls, not matwork. Austin also has no longevity. He has two great years - 1997 and 2001 - that's it.

 

The person who reminds me the most of Flair is Angle, but that's not exactly a compliment. They both have a lot of the same traits - loads of bumping, predictable transitions, excessive comedy stooging, signature spots that are used in every situation (eg Flair always getting caught on the top rope and Angle always 'playing possum' and hitting the top rope belly-to-belly), letting everyone and their mother counter their finishing hold to get a pop, etc...

 

And I don't really give a damn about Shawn Michaels, so don't dare label me an "HBK mark/fanboy."

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

blah blah blah blah blah

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Ignore list grows.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The person who reminds me the most of Flair is Angle, but that's not exactly a compliment. They both have a lot of the same traits - loads of bumping, predictable transitions, excessive comedy stooging, signature spots that are used in every situation (eg Flair always getting caught on the top rope and Angle always 'playing possum' and hitting the top rope belly-to-belly), letting everyone and their mother counter their finishing hold to get a pop, etc...

 

Um, that's describes Michaels too.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The person who reminds me the most of Flair is Angle, but that's not exactly a compliment. They both have a lot of the same traits - loads of bumping, predictable transitions, excessive comedy stooging, signature spots that are used in every situation (eg Flair always getting caught on the top rope and Angle always 'playing possum' and hitting the top rope belly-to-belly), letting everyone and their mother counter their finishing hold to get a pop, etc...

 

Um, that's describes Michaels too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quiet. You'll expose the flaws in his argument.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

At least Ray attempted to provide logic in his arguments. That's better than "LOLZ BRET DREW THE LOWEST PPV NUMBER!"

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It's great, though, cause I was about to write something very similar (stooging, overselling, lack of offense, repetative moves, same transitions) when I first saw this thread, but opted not to because this is an argument that I have long since retired from.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

At least Ray attempted to provide logic in his arguments. That's better than "LOLZ BRET DREW THE LOWEST PPV NUMBER!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just a shame his logic and argument had more than a few holes.

 

It's great, though, cause I was about to write something very similar (stooging, overselling, lack of offense, repetative moves, same transitions) when I first saw this thread, but opted not to because this is an argument that I have long since retired from.

 

It's threads like this that make it hard to care enough to educate people when you have people who can't seem to grasp very simple concepts.

[Guest *KNK*]

This is just too nonsensical to even address. I would suggest going through the years you mentioned and comparing matches, then tell me if HBK was involved in the MOTYs in each of those years.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

1993- vs Marty Jannety

 

1994- Ladder match with Ramon

 

1995- vs Jeff Jarret

 

1996- vs Bret Hart, vs Mankind (both were big contenders)

 

1997- vs Undertaker (Bad Blood), vs Austin (king of the ring)

 

2004- vs Benoit/HHH

 

2005- vs Kurt Angle, vs Benjammin

 

You don't think those are arguable? Please list your MOTYs for those years. I know PWI voters at the time had him win in 93/94/96/97

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1993 - Shinobu Kandori vs. Akira Hokuto (04/02) or Kenta Kobashi vs. Stan Hansen (07/29) Both of these in a compete walk. The Jannetty match isn't even in the same universe.

 

1994 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (06/03) This might be the best match ever. Again, this kills the ladder match. Absolutely kills it.

 

1995 - Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (06/09)

 

1996 - Misawa & Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue (12/06)

 

1997 - Misawa vs. Kobashi (01/20)

 

2004 - Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (12/04)

 

2005 - Angle vs. HBK would be at or near the top of my list. The Benjamin match wasn't even as good as Angle-Jannetty or Angle-Benjamin.

 

Now, it's not meant to be a slight against HBK. The 1993-1997 matches are probably 6 of the top 10 matches ever, so it's pretty tough competition. But based on the criteria I use, none of HBKs matches are even arguable from 1994-2004. That criteria being selling/stiffness/execution/story(which includes build, body-part work, etc). Then again, I'd imagine you and I have different criteria for what makes a match good, so it might not even be worth arguing (and that isn't meant to be insulting).

 

 

 

Angle/HBK doesn't even rank in the top ten North American matches this year already and it's only September.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Question: Who was the better worker, Bret Hart or Ric Flair? It's been established that repetitive moves are not that good and you know Flair has his trademarks and Bret has his Five Moves...

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Question: Who was the better worker, Bret Hart or Ric Flair? It's been established that repetitive moves are not that good and you know Flair has his trademarks and Bret has his Five Moves...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd say Bret, if only because he at least 'got his shit in' in a different order from time to time. Not to mention his non-five moves stuff looked credible, and he didn't do comedy bumps that made it impossible to maintain the illusion of legitimate competition.

[The Mandarin 0]

Flair's comedy stooging is much better than Angle's comedy stooging, but that's another story.

[Guest JMA]

Question: Who was the better worker, Bret Hart or Ric Flair? It's been established that repetitive moves are not that good and you know Flair has his trademarks and Bret has his Five Moves...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bret wins in terms of pure in-ring work. That's not an insult to Flair, though. He has the advantage when it comes to mic skills.

[Guest *KNK*]

Question: Who was the better worker, Bret Hart or Ric Flair? It's been established that repetitive moves are not that good and you know Flair has his trademarks and Bret has his Five Moves...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why does every "worker? who was better?" only revolve around Flair, Hart and Shawn?

 

Here's a MORE fun diccusion, Who has a better body of work?

 

Chris Benoit, Dynamite Kid or Bryan Danielson?

 

Let's stop debating endlessly about Flair/Hart/Shawn and open our minds and examine other equally good workers who always get neglected for those three egomanaics when it comes to their "work" ability.

 

 

To answer the question however, I have to say Bret Hart is the slight winner if only because not every match with Bret felt the same, While Flair more times then not, felt like a repeat.

 

That's not to slight Flair because Flair has an incredibly strong body of work equal to Bret's body of work.

[World's Worst Man 0]

This is just too nonsensical to even address. I would suggest going through the years you mentioned and comparing matches, then tell me if HBK was involved in the MOTYs in each of those years.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

1993- vs Marty Jannety

 

1994- Ladder match with Ramon

 

1995- vs Jeff Jarret

 

1996- vs Bret Hart, vs Mankind (both were big contenders)

 

1997- vs Undertaker (Bad Blood), vs Austin (king of the ring)

 

2004- vs Benoit/HHH

 

2005- vs Kurt Angle, vs Benjammin

 

You don't think those are arguable? Please list your MOTYs for those years. I know PWI voters at the time had him win in 93/94/96/97

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1993 - Shinobu Kandori vs. Akira Hokuto (04/02) or Kenta Kobashi vs. Stan Hansen (07/29) Both of these in a compete walk. The Jannetty match isn't even in the same universe.

 

1994 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (06/03) This might be the best match ever. Again, this kills the ladder match. Absolutely kills it.

 

1995 - Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (06/09)

 

1996 - Misawa & Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue (12/06)

 

1997 - Misawa vs. Kobashi (01/20)

 

2004 - Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (12/04)

 

2005 - Angle vs. HBK would be at or near the top of my list. The Benjamin match wasn't even as good as Angle-Jannetty or Angle-Benjamin.

 

Now, it's not meant to be a slight against HBK. The 1993-1997 matches are probably 6 of the top 10 matches ever, so it's pretty tough competition. But based on the criteria I use, none of HBKs matches are even arguable from 1994-2004. That criteria being selling/stiffness/execution/story(which includes build, body-part work, etc). Then again, I'd imagine you and I have different criteria for what makes a match good, so it might not even be worth arguing (and that isn't meant to be insulting).

 

 

 

Angle/HBK doesn't even rank in the top ten North American matches this year already and it's only September.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wouldn't doubt it. It's probably #4 on my US list right now, and as for ROH, I've yet to see past their May 7th show. And there's supposed to be a bunch of real good stuff after that. Any recommendations on what WWE stuff was better? I've seen HBK/Benjamin, Angle/Benjamin and Angle/Jannetty and didn't think any were quite as good.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Question: Who was the better worker, Bret Hart or Ric Flair? It's been established that repetitive moves are not that good and you know Flair has his trademarks and Bret has his Five Moves...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why does every "worker? who was better?" only revolve around Flair, Hart and Shawn?

 

Here's a MORE fun diccusion, Who has a better body of work?

 

Chris Benoit, Dynamite Kid or Bryan Danielson?

 

Let's stop debating endlessly about Flair/Hart/Shawn and open our minds and examine other equally good workers who always get neglected for those three egomanaics when it comes to their "work" ability.

 

 

To answer the question however, I have to say Bret Hart is the slight winner if only because not every match with Bret felt the same, While Flair more times then not, felt like a repeat.

 

That's not to slight Flair because Flair has an incredibly strong body of work equal to Bret's body of work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But but, Flair is the best in-ring worker of all time! Dave Meltzer says so, so it must be true

 

But yea, I definitely get annoyed by Flair and HBK constantly being brought up, considering there's a truckload of a guys who were better.

[Guest Ray]

blah blah blah blah blah

The Ignore list grows.

 

Quiet. You'll expose the flaws in his argument.

 

Just a shame his logic and argument had more than a few holes.

 

It's threads like this that make it hard to care enough to educate people when you have people who can't seem to grasp very simple concepts.

Yeah, don't even attempt to debate any of the points I made. Just be a jackass.

 

"The Ignore list grows."

 

Right back at you, kiddo.

[Guest *KNK*]

This is just too nonsensical to even address. I would suggest going through the years you mentioned and comparing matches, then tell me if HBK was involved in the MOTYs in each of those years.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

1993- vs Marty Jannety

 

1994- Ladder match with Ramon

 

1995- vs Jeff Jarret

 

1996- vs Bret Hart, vs Mankind (both were big contenders)

 

1997- vs Undertaker (Bad Blood), vs Austin (king of the ring)

 

2004- vs Benoit/HHH

 

2005- vs Kurt Angle, vs Benjammin

 

You don't think those are arguable? Please list your MOTYs for those years. I know PWI voters at the time had him win in 93/94/96/97

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1993 - Shinobu Kandori vs. Akira Hokuto (04/02) or Kenta Kobashi vs. Stan Hansen (07/29) Both of these in a compete walk. The Jannetty match isn't even in the same universe.

 

1994 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (06/03) This might be the best match ever. Again, this kills the ladder match. Absolutely kills it.

 

1995 - Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (06/09)

 

1996 - Misawa & Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue (12/06)

 

1997 - Misawa vs. Kobashi (01/20)

 

2004 - Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (12/04)

 

2005 - Angle vs. HBK would be at or near the top of my list. The Benjamin match wasn't even as good as Angle-Jannetty or Angle-Benjamin.

 

Now, it's not meant to be a slight against HBK. The 1993-1997 matches are probably 6 of the top 10 matches ever, so it's pretty tough competition. But based on the criteria I use, none of HBKs matches are even arguable from 1994-2004. That criteria being selling/stiffness/execution/story(which includes build, body-part work, etc). Then again, I'd imagine you and I have different criteria for what makes a match good, so it might not even be worth arguing (and that isn't meant to be insulting).

 

 

 

Angle/HBK doesn't even rank in the top ten North American matches this year already and it's only September.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wouldn't doubt it. It's probably #4 on my US list right now, and as for ROH, I've yet to see past their May 7th show. And there's supposed to be a bunch of real good stuff after that. Any recommendations on what WWE stuff was better? I've seen HBK/Benjamin, Angle/Benjamin and Angle/Jannetty and didn't think any were quite as good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Completely, ROH really had an incredible summer with 6-10 matches that will easily be secured into a top ten of 2005 already, I don't think HBK/Angle will even fall in the top 20.

 

I strongly urge you to get caught up with the ROH summer stuff because it was just great.

 

Just for a frame of reference, 8/12-Gibson/Punk/Daniels/Joe is 2005's MOTY thus far.

 

As for WWE? I would say I enjoyed Flair/Angle but simply on a entertainment level but they weren't no better then each other as far as quality work was concerned.

 

2005 has been pretty lackluster when it comes to any potential MOTYC's, even TNA has a better body of work for 2005 so far.

 

I guess if I was forced to select something for WWE's MOTY, It would have to be HBK/Angle but that's just goes to show how weak 2005 has been for WWE.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

KNK, I'd contest that Chris Benoit had a bigger body of work. I'd rate DK ahead of him if I saw more of his work, but from what I've seen, it's Benoit.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I prefer Benoit over DK, but I don't know that I'd call Benoit better without watching a bunch of DK stuff first. I like Danielson too, and he is really good, but I think he's just a little below Benoit and DK.

[Guest *KNK*]

KNK, I'd contest that Chris Benoit had a bigger body of work. I'd rate DK ahead of him if I saw more of his work, but from what I've seen, it's Benoit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am in the same boat, My DK material is rather limited to only a handful of matches.

 

Personally speaking, I just think Danielson's body of work at his young age (24) is almost as impressive as Benoit's career body of work.

 

Danielson isn't even near his prime and that's incredible to think about.

 

I can only hope American Dragon and The Crippler can someday face each other.

[World's Worst Man 0]

I'd have to take Dynamite over Benoit. I guess comparing them directly, they're pretty equal. But relative to each guy's time period, Dynamite was better compared to the typical trend at the time he wrestled. To me, him doing the things he did in 1982 is more impressive than Benoit doing more or less the same things in 1992.

 

As for Danielson, I'd say he's too young to be talked about in that same class. He certainly has the talent, and unless something happens to ruin his body of work (ie. stagnating in the E), I believe he'll equal Dynamite and Benoit before it's all said and done.

[Guest *KNK*]

I'd have to take Dynamite over Benoit. I guess comparing them directly, they're pretty equal. But relative to each guy's time period, Dynamite was better compared to the typical trend at the time he wrestled. To me, him doing the things he did in 1982 is more impressive than Benoit doing more or less the same things in 1992.

 

As for Danielson, I'd say he's too young to be talked about in that same class. He certainly has the talent, and unless something happens to ruin his body of work (ie. stagnating in the E), I believe he'll equal Dynamite and Benoit before it's all said and done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, I agree that Danielson is too young to really be added to that class.

 

I just saw American Dragon as the closest modern example of the style that DK and Benoit are.

 

Although some could argue Gibson should be the next name in that pattern.

[Fro 0]

Benoit's better than DK, although DK was much more innovative.

 

Michaels is the heir to Ric Flair, pretty easily. Michaels is a little better in the ring and is below Flair on the mic. Flair is always godly on the mic and Michaels only is in flashes (usually when he's the prick heel character).

 

Bret Hart is very overrated as a wrestler just because Canadians like him. He's pretty boring and I think doing the same five moves at the end of his matches is as business-exposing as the Flair Flip and Flop or Michaels nipping up or overselling.

 

Comparing puro to US matches is comparing apples to oranges. I could care less how good of a match Jumbo and Misawa had in 1992 or how good All Japan was and how that somehow makes what guys are doing in the states (where they couldn't work that style) 13 years later worse.

[cabbageboy 0]

Why is doing the same 5 moves all THAT bad? It's his traditional setup stuff for the Sharpshooter. It at least has a point in the context of a match, unlike the Flair Flip (which is still fun). Every wrestler has his trademark spots so it's pointless to criticize that.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Why is doing the same 5 moves all THAT bad?  It's his traditional setup stuff for the Sharpshooter.  It at least has a point in the context of a match, unlike the Flair Flip (which is still fun).  Every wrestler has his trademark spots so it's pointless to criticize that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm still trying to work out how Bret Hart is overrated because Canadians like him.