Who is the best person to be wwe champion?

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

I'd have to say Austin as well. Jericho is damaged goods, HHH just came off a bad reign, Hogan just did the same, and Angle's locked in comedy heel for the moment until his next persona switch, so basically, Austin's the only choice as far as I can see.

[Guest]

I say Angle... yeah yeah I know he is going to the Olympics but that's not going to be until Winter. I say give the title to him soon, push him as a monster heel, and then build up a new face challenger to take the title off of him in a "loser leaves WWE match" when it comes time for him to go to the Olympics

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

I think the WWE (and the fans) have got to get off the mentality that the only way to push people now is to give them runs with the belt until they get over, like they did with HHH. They should be trying to push guys the way they did with Austin and the Rock, i.e. finding the next true superstar instead of trying to manufacture him. Because at the end of the day, while a guy like HHH (I don't like to pick on him but he's a good example) is over due to being pushed and pushed and given good title reign after title reign, he'll never be at the level Austin and the Rock reached because the fans made them the biggest stars around. Look at Austin. Under most peoples current ideas about how to push new wrestlers (just give them the belt after they beat a main event guy and *poof* they will be over), Austin was a star a full year before he was given the WWF title. Over that perioded he feuded with the Harts, won the IC title, and feuded in the midcard with the Rock. By the time he won the title, he was so over that winning catapulted him into superstardom.  Now consider the Rock. His feud with HHH, while being a totally midcard feud, was the best of 1998 IMO. The blowoff match was superb and both guys came out looking like stars. But it was the Rock that took off almost immediately, while HHH had to wait almost 2 years until he was even close to the level the Rock reached in about 2 months. And that's why the Rock is a true superstar of pro wrestling, while HHH is star, but not super, as they say. What this comes down to is that it's really the writers/bookers that have to step up. Two midcard guys can become stars fighting each other, they don't need main eventers to job to them and "elevate" them. They just need the right storyline, the right set of matches, and the right circumstances, just as Austin had in 1997, and the Rock did in 1998.

[Guest cabbageboy]

I am not sure I get all the Austin support.  He's having an atrocious year wrestling wise, and frankly has gotten insanely stale on the mic.  I actively grimace during his interviews in fear of this "what" bullshit.  I can only see giving the title to Austin again if he makes some radical change in his gimmick, drops the what crap, etc.  Right now most people can't take him seriously, he's become a parody of himself.

[Guest goodhelmet]

HoganMadeWrestling, I agree with your assessment that they can't be manufactured ala HHH. That is why I believe RVD has just as good a chance as anyone else as carrying the company. Love him or hate him, he gets genuine fan support and ,regardless of his circumstances, remains over. That is why a push for Brock Lesnar is doomed to fail. People recognize his "monster" status is manufactured and is a cheap Goldberg gimmick. He's already receiving a public backlash.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

I agree about Brock Lesnar, just calling a guy the "next big thing" doesn't make it so. You brought up another great example of what I was talking about as well: Goldberg. As for RVD, I agree with your assessment, but I don't think the solution is to give him the title. I think the better thing to do (in an ideal situation) is to find someone who is compatible with RVD, set up a feud between them, and keep it going. Make some stables around them if you have to. In other words, push two midcarders against each other so they can both get over. This worked for Rock-HHH, and not only that, but once they were both main eventers their history with each other let them slide seamlessly into a main event feud when the time came for that. Some people don't like this philosophy since it leads to guys fighting many times, but I think a drawn-out feud over many years can be the best kind (Rock-HHH, Sting-Vader, etc.). Of course, all this puts the onus on the writers/bookers, which might not be the best route at this point.

[Guest the 1inch punch]

Booker's problems would seem to stem (and oppose me if u want) from the fact thats he's black, and Jr isnt.

 

RVD's problems are that he has that darn ECW tag on him

[Guest Anglesault]

I would say Angle, but he has NO cred anymore (Thanks his interminable "Makin' Midcarders" run which featured a two month Edge Feud * with Edge and looks to be on the berge of and Edge Feud with Maven) So RVD

 

 

*Edge feud: Long, boring feud that has horrible comedy and does severe damage to one of the wrestlers involved. Edge is usually, but doesn't have to be in the feud.

[Guest cabbageboy]

I don't think that Booker is being held back due to race or anything.  It is more of the twisted enjoyment from Vince in humiliating a former WCW champ.

 

The ECW thing isn't much of an excuse for not pushing RVD either since Foley and Austin were both in ECW before getting to the WWF.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The ECW thing is why RVD would ineveitably lose out in a choice between Edge and himself.

 

Edge got over because Vince made it so.

 

RVD got over on his own. (seriously...what was it...5 seconds into the invasion match that he became the new "thing")

[Guest]

RVD needs to turn heel and get the title.

 

And for all of you "RVD wouldn't make a good heel" people, let me remind you he was a heel during his ECW TV Title run. RVD being a heel lets him use his cockiness much better and he will be able to cut better promos. Hopefully, he won't keep saying "I'm Rob Van Dam" either.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

He needs a manager for that.

 

maybe they could turn Brock face and he can beat the shit out of Heyman...then Heyman could join up with RVD.

[Guest]

maybe they could turn Brock face and he can beat the shit out of Heyman...then Heyman could join up with RVD.

 

That's a good idea. WWE probably won't use it, and have Steph or Shane come back to be RVD's manager.

[Guest]

From a business & publicity perspective: The Rock, Goldberg or Russell Crowe (hey, he's on the outs with Hollywood and could have a big moviestar showdown with Rocky at next year's WrestleMania.  A tad more believable than David Arquette, to boot.)

 

From a product perspective: Rob Van Dam (although he needs more time to be built up.  The comparison with Bret Hart being given the belt in 1992 bears some water, but Bret had been super-over for 18 months since entering the singles ranks and headlined the pay-per-view prior to being handed the ball.  So far this year, RVD was a non-factor in the Rumble, had a meaningless fued with Goldust, a meaningless I-C title-win over William Regal, and jobbed to Eddie Guerrero for two straight PPV's.  Giving him the title now would be insane.  By SummerSlam at the earliest, if then.)

 

From a product perspective part II: Chris Benoit.  My personal choice.  Have him beat Taker in his first match back and be a bad-ass lone-wolf fighting machine.  It would shake things up, 2000-2001 era fans would tune back in, and main event match quality would go through the roof.

 

But they're all moot points really, because we all know they are going to go back with Triple-H.  And at least he's better than Hogan or Undertaker.

[Guest Dangerous A]

I agree with almost all of what you said there Deputyhawk. The only thing I am not in total agreement with yet is RVD. I think he needs a little, and seriously just a little tweaking of his style. His transition forearm smashes, while unique because they are not the traditional punches and kicks, are weak as hell. I am not trying to be funny, but they need intensity behind them. Especially because he is a babyface. When he starts making a comeback against his opponent, the crowd wants to get behind a thunderous comeback. A fiery comeback. Case in point, when RVD was coming back against UT this monday, I thought the crowd wasn't as live as they could've been. His lack of fire is one of the things that I believe hold him back from that illustrious ME spot. That and he is not a McMahon creation so don't expect the reigns to be given to RVD until it's too late. The rest of RVD's style needs to be kept intact. That's what I think is a large part of his appeal. He just happens to have horrible looking kicks and punches. But if he does start to do them where they look good, he ends up hurting people. Looks like a long climb up the ladder for Mr. Van Dam.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Again I'd like to remind everyone that the last three champions are:

 

Undertaker

 

Hulk Hogan

 

and

 

a very different from 2000 HHH.

 

keep that as a frame of reference when judging what kinds of "style" can make it to the top right now.

[Guest Human Fly]

RVD can try and turn heel again. But will it work? He was a heel when he came into the WWF he was still more over as a face then everyone but the Rock. He has to have a manager (Heyman was mentioned) but even then his spots will still get cheers from the crowd.

[Guest]

It's usually good if a heel is so over he gets face pops. It's better than him coming out to no reaction *cough*taker*cough*.

[Guest Dangerous A]

"Again I'd like to remind everyone that the last three champions are:

 

Undertaker

 

Hulk Hogan

 

and

 

a very different from 2000 HHH.

 

keep that as a frame of reference when judging what kinds of "style" can make it to the top right now."

 

 

Good call. However I think they can get away with lesser intensity offense because they are so big in physical stature, whereas RVD has to hit hard or give the illusion of hitting hard or else it ruins the credibility. That or those lugs have to sell for him and although it looks like HHH and Taker have looked a little better in selling for their opponents, Hogan can't and/or won't. My point is RVD has a wonderful real kick and punch, but looks atrocious when he has to pull them.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Oh I don't disagree.

 

See my post in the what is the flaw in your favs thread.

 

All I mean is...with the deadweight that has carried the belt...I don't think that anyone is too far away from getting to the top...no matter their faults.

[Guest alfdogg]

Well if they're going to get serious about giving him a monster heel push, why not Brock?

 

Yes, I know he hasn't quite "earned" it yet, but had Yokozuna?  Big Show?  David Arquette?  VINCE MCMAHON????

In the modern world of pro wrestling that we live in, no prospective champion is too unrealistic.

 

P.S.  If any of you try to add HHH's name to that list, you can swallow my dongstick like a naughty schoolgirl.

Okay.

 

Then YOU explain how HHH "earned" his last title reign.

 

REAL mature thing to say, man.

[Guest alfdogg]

I think the WWE (and the fans) have got to get off the mentality that the only way to push people now is to give them runs with the belt until they get over, like they did with HHH. They should be trying to push guys the way they did with Austin and the Rock, i.e. finding the next true superstar instead of trying to manufacture him. Because at the end of the day, while a guy like HHH (I don't like to pick on him but he's a good example) is over due to being pushed and pushed and given good title reign after title reign, he'll never be at the level Austin and the Rock reached because the fans made them the biggest stars around. Look at Austin. Under most peoples current ideas about how to push new wrestlers (just give them the belt after they beat a main event guy and *poof* they will be over), Austin was a star a full year before he was given the WWF title. Over that perioded he feuded with the Harts, won the IC title, and feuded in the midcard with the Rock. By the time he won the title, he was so over that winning catapulted him into superstardom.  Now consider the Rock. His feud with HHH, while being a totally midcard feud, was the best of 1998 IMO. The blowoff match was superb and both guys came out looking like stars. But it was the Rock that took off almost immediately, while HHH had to wait almost 2 years until he was even close to the level the Rock reached in about 2 months. And that's why the Rock is a true superstar of pro wrestling, while HHH is star, but not super, as they say. What this comes down to is that it's really the writers/bookers that have to step up. Two midcard guys can become stars fighting each other, they don't need main eventers to job to them and "elevate" them. They just need the right storyline, the right set of matches, and the right circumstances, just as Austin had in 1997, and the Rock did in 1998.

Well said.

 

And one thing about Brock...I remember someone drawing a comparison to Bull Buchanan about how everyone was going apeshit because he could do such a good legdrop off the top at his size, and some thought HE would be the next big thing.  And look at him now.  He's in OVW, and I haven't even heard that much about him there.  I'm not saying that will happen to Brock.  I think he'll have more success than Bull.  But just something to ponder.

[Guest papacita]

I agree that RVD should be turned heel before being given a World Title run. And if the fans cheer him...fuck them. Too many good heel runs have ended because of the fans, and 9 times out of 10 a face turn ends up taking away everything likeable about the guy in the 1st place. Make him a loud mouth,  cocky heel like he was in ECW and program him with a no-nonsense Austin to get him over. I think it'd work out great, and maybe later on, when the time is right, they can turn him face again.

[Guest cabbageboy]

RVD's run in ECW was one of the most unique things I have ever seen in wrestling.  Virtually everything he did was heelish when he held the TV title.  He cut promos badmouthing his opponents, put over smoking weed, made fun of his tag partner Sabu, etc.  He even had a heel manager like Bill Alfonso who blew his annoying whistle and interfered in matches.  

 

Yet somehow Van Dam was the biggest face in the company!

 

I've never seen that in wrestling.  Sure, the Rock had a few people giving him a face pop when he was in the Nation but he was hardly the most popular guy in the fed at that point.  

 

I don't know if RVD needs to even turn heel as in like attacking someone type turning.  Just give him some mic time and let him call himself the Whole F'N Show, Mr. PPV, all that stuff.  Let him run down his opponents:

 

"Austin, you know you can't beat me, these people know you can't beat me...that's why they'll be chanting 'RVD, RVD' when I'm kicking your ass."

 

"Hey Goldberg, at least no one had to pipe in my chants...... mine were so loud they had to drown them out."

 

RVD would be cool as hell if he went back to that persona.  Well, he's cool as hell now but he'd be even better.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

What's needed is a change. Something the WWF hasn't tried yet. And as it has been said already, there is a way to do this.

 

Give the title to one of two up-and-comers.

 

Edge or RVD.

 

Edge is over as hell. Third most over person on SmackDown!, Edge is prime right now to be pushed up into a fued for the World Title, I think this is the more risky of the two and could either flop, or completely go over the top. I think if they jobbed UT out to him, he could get to Rocks level of heat. He's gotten over the old-fashioned way; working good matches, looking pretty and making a fool out of the badguy. He's gotten the rub, and now he just needs the Title to carry the WWF out of the rut.

 

RVD is the more safe choice, though I know he simply doesn't have the potential to be as over as Edge could be (though he is the better wrestler). RVD, if given the title, will be a strong Champ but I'm not really sure if he'll be able to grasp the intrest of the fans, or get over that significantly just because of the title. His mic work simply isn't good enough.

 

But that's just me.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"RVD is the more safe choice, though I know he simply doesn't have the potential to be as over as Edge could be (though he is the better wrestler). RVD, if given the title, will be a strong Champ but I'm not really sure if he'll be able to grasp the intrest of the fans, or get over that significantly just because of the title. His mic work simply isn't good enough."

 

 

Considering the fact that fans were chanting his name and not the Rocks when they wrestled during the alliance angle (when their was a somewhat commited RVD push for a month or two)...I'd say RVD has the potential to reach levels of being over that Edge could never approach.  

 

Something RVD does that Edge, HHH or many other top scan't always do is get the fans into the match.  Austin and Rock can do it...and there is a reason that they are the top 2 guys.  Watch an RVD match against anyone...Regal, Test, Goldust...anyone...the fans are into it completely.  Edge doesn't have that (compare his matches with Regal).  That is a HUGE plus in the RVD column.  He already brings to the table something that the WWE is dying to find.

 

"His mic work simply isn't good enough"

 

Bullshit.  Just because some people on this board say that doesn't make it true.  The fact of the matter is anyone who is over can cut good enough promos WHAT?  the point is to pop the crowd and to make them care about whatever it is you are talking about (match/opponent/angle/feud).  Everytime RVD does get to talk he pops the crowd. (Point 1...check).  And fans already care about what RVD does/who he wrestles and the match.  The fact that Edge has to cut his promos every feud (and these promos dont exactly light the world on fire...hes only got 1 generic one) is an indication of his inability to draw constant match heat.  

 

When you talk about Edge and RVD there is a major crossroads you are looking at.  Edge at the top?  We've seen other forms of that before.  There is nothing that really distances Edge from...well...everyone else.  But RVD is a complete contradiction to pretty much everything else they've tried.  The guy got over the second he started wrestling...no work needed...new most over face in the company. (ANd in July of 2001 until the Rocks return...that was pretty much the case without question).  How many other people can lay claim to being over based almost completely on their in ring work?  

 

Now some people may not like his "flippy-flop" style...but whatever.  Edge is same book...different chapter.  RVD is a whole new ballgame.  And the WWE needs a change IMO...not a slight correction.

 

When Hogan came up in the 80s it was a change in direction...cartoony over the top good guy vs. bad guy.

 

When Austin came up in the mid to late 90s it was a change in direction...antihero is king.  The Attitude era featured a whole new host of top guys.  Austin, Rock, HHH and DX.

 

Edge?  just like elavating Jericho...only without as much A: Talent and B: Mic skills.

 

RVD isn't as good in those categories either...but hes a whole new animal.  the bottome line is that the fans have wanted him non-stop for almost an entire year.  The WWE uses him to main event house shows (both now in the Raw brand and prior when RVD vs. Raven or Tazz for the HC title would ME all over the country on the "B" shows).  He has victories of some sort over Austin, Rock, Jericho, Taker and Angle (while Edge has Angle).  He was counted on to be in the main event of 2 ppvs just a few months in to his tenure.

 

The WWE has been using RVD like a superstar...selling him like a superstar...so isn't it about time they gave him what they give other people who have been playing his role?

 

If nothing else...a title reign by RVD would probably sell them more merchandise...and more tickets to those shows that they sell on the sholders of a guy who's never held a world title.

 

 

EDIT:  Oh yeah...they also are going to use him as a cover guy to sell the Gamecube WrestleMania X8.  He appears on the cover with Ausitn and Hogan.  3 guys...18 world titles...1 guy has 0.

 

There is alot to compare between the WWE careers of RVD and Jericho thus far.  (initial push.  burial.  fake title wins...etc.) but they've never tried so hard (house shows, advertising...etc.) to make money off of someone without pushing him to the top.  

 

Given all of that.  He deserves it.

 

Like I said.  Fans have wanted him non stop for almost a year.   Its about that time.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

Considering the fact that fans were chanting his name and not the Rocks when they wrestled during the alliance angle (when their was a somewhat commited RVD push for a month or two)...I'd say RVD has the potential to reach levels of being over that Edge could never approach.

 

Now that you put it that way; I can see where your coming from.

 

I'm not so positive you're right, though.

 

 

Bullshit.  Just because some people on this board say that doesn't make it true.  The fact of the matter is anyone who is over can cut good enough promos WHAT?  the point is to pop the crowd and to make them care about whatever it is you are talking about (match/opponent/angle/feud).  

 

This may interest you; I actually formed my own opinion about the fact he's dull on the mic. Given the right material, Edge is better.

 

Now some people may not like his "flippy-flop" style...but whatever.  Edge is same book...different chapter.  RVD is a whole new ballgame.  And the WWE needs a change IMO...not a slight correction.

 

RVD isn't a whole new ballgame. He just works more of a lightweight style. RVD is of comparable stature to the Main Eventers, also. And the fact he works a different style also stacks the odds against him I think; no one else in the main event works that style. The overall quality of the matches would sink (though they would be better than UT/HHH).

 

When Hogan came up in the 80s it was a change in direction...cartoony over the top good guy vs. bad guy.

 

When Austin came up in the mid to late 90s it was a change in direction...antihero is king.  The Attitude era featured a whole new host of top guys.  Austin, Rock, HHH and DX.

 

There is a major difference between those examples and RVD. Hogan and Austin were amazing on the mic, and provided something completely different outside of the ring. RVD doesn't provide anything new outside of the ring (neither does Edge). RVD just works a style that has already proven to get over on it's own (Tajiri, Hurricane... though he had a bit of a push). His "Style" isn't brand new, it's just new for a guy his size. Now I realize that Edge isn't Hogan or Austin, either, but I'm not saying that he'll revolutionize the sport.

 

Edge?  just like elavating Jericho...only without as much A: Talent and B: Mic skills.

 

Except Edge is A. Is more over and  B. Actually has credibility.

[Guest]

Except Edge is A. Is more over and  B. Actually has credibility.

 

Jericho is the top heel in the company.  Taker may be the champ, but no one is as hated by the fans as Jericho, not even Angle.

 

As for credibility, that's the one thing Edge lacks.  I hate HHH of course (I'm an internet fan, so that's a given ), but when Edge confronted him backstage a couple weeks ago when Edge made the "sleeping to the top comment", I remember distinctly thinking that Edge completely lacked credibility standing next to HHH, even before HHH punked him out with the "win a couple titles" comment.  I like Edge actually, so I was embarrassed for him in that spot.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

If you argue that RVD is just a spot wrestler, or that Edge is far better suited to the "WWE style" of rasslin', or even that Edge is better at promo's(though that's debatable), that's fine.  But there is just no way that you can say that Edge is more over than RVD without having people go "what in the world did he just say?"

 

Its understandable.  Edge is on Smackdown, where the WWF tends to pump in crowd noise after the fact.  To the untrained, Edge could very well appear to be more over than RVD.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"Bullshit.  Just because some people on this board say that doesn't make it true.  The fact of the matter is anyone who is over can cut good enough promos WHAT?  the point is to pop the crowd and to make them care about whatever it is you are talking about (match/opponent/angle/feud).  

 

 

This may interest you; I actually formed my own opinion about the fact he's dull on the mic. Given the right material, Edge is better."

 

Right then...your wrong...and the statement I replied with tells you why.

 

 

"Now some people may not like his "flippy-flop" style...but whatever.  Edge is same book...different chapter.  RVD is a whole new ballgame.  And the WWE needs a change IMO...not a slight correction.

 

 

 

RVD isn't a whole new ballgame. He just works more of a lightweight style. RVD is of comparable stature to the Main Eventers, also. And the fact he works a different style also stacks the odds against him I think; no one else in the main event works that style. The overall quality of the matches would sink (though they would be better than UT/HHH)."

 

 

The difference is he works a cruiser style (one that the WWE doesn't even let the cruiser USE...) and he is the only one to use that style who can be excepted in the main event...how is that NOT a whole new ballgame?  In fact...he could open the door to a whole new class of main event style.  I'd say thats pretty important.

 

 

"When Hogan came up in the 80s it was a change in direction...cartoony over the top good guy vs. bad guy.

 

When Austin came up in the mid to late 90s it was a change in direction...antihero is king.  The Attitude era featured a whole new host of top guys.  Austin, Rock, HHH and DX.

 

 

There is a major difference between those examples and RVD. Hogan and Austin were amazing on the mic, and provided something completely different outside of the ring. RVD doesn't provide anything new outside of the ring (neither does Edge). RVD just works a style that has already proven to get over on it's own (Tajiri, Hurricane... though he had a bit of a push). His "Style" isn't brand new, it's just new for a guy his size. Now I realize that Edge isn't Hogan or Austin, either, but I'm not saying that he'll revolutionize the sport."

 

 

Hogan sucked on the mic...same promo everytime...word for word.  Besides that though...I'm talking about someone who can be pushed to the point of carrying a company and a change of direction.  Edge doesn't have near the potential to do that as RVD does.  Like I said....Edge is just like everything else the WWE has pushed since 1997.  

 

 

"Edge?  just like elavating Jericho...only without as much A: Talent and B: Mic skills.

 

 

Except Edge is A. Is more over and  B. Actually has credibility."

 

 

Edge more over than Jericho?  Comparing them as faces is no contest for Jericho...go watch some 2000.  And Edge has yet to prove that he can play a heel outside of a tag team scene.

 

Credability?  I must have missed who he's beaten outside of a fluke rollup against Angle on his second try.