What seperates the 2 Bret vs Austin matches as well as others

[Guest wildpegasus]

Just a bunch of thoughts that were going through my mind which I wanted to type down.

 

 

This was commented on in the DVDVR messageboard but it was buried deep within some other post. Basically, it was about the Bret vs Austin matches. The Bret vs Austin matches are often debated on which one is better. The two matches in question are Bret vs Austin from Survivor Series 96 and of course Wrestlemania XIII. Of course you will find people favouring both sides.

 

However, one very interesting thing I'm noticed (and I hope I'm not wrong on this) is that people who believe SSeries is better don't really think of that match as being one of the best of all time but people who think the Mania is the better of the 2 will be more likely to favour that match as one of the best of all time. I never did put SS96 in the DVDVR poll I mad a little while back on the best matches ever which is too bad but I did put WM13 as an option. To say it did better than I thought it would do would be an understatement. It easily held its own/pulled off a ton of "upsets" and confirmed my belief that the bigger fans of the match truly did think of it as one of the best matches ever. I of course am one of those people though I don't think I voted for it in the poll.

 

So why are the WM13 fans more in love with their match as compared to the SS96 fans? Well, I think as commented in the DVDVR thread that it comes down to this. Feeling. SS96 is a great experience and leaves you with feeling that "Man, I just watched a terrific match" but WM13 leaves you with the feeling that you just skydived out of the air while losing your virginity at the same time (if that was possible) It knocks you over, picks you back up again and than knocks you out cold. That right there is the reason I believe WM13 is the better match of the 2 and one of the better matches of all time. It leaves me with the feeling "I just watched one of the best matches of all time". Of course, I guess for whatever individual reasons the fans of SS96 don't get the same kind of rush that the big fans of WM13 do. That's why they don't think WM13 is one of the better matches ever.

Basically, it all comes down to feeling when we judge a match. If I ever say a match is one of the best ever or is overrated it's pretty much because it left me with a super endorphin rush or it gave me a feeling of nothingless.

 

Really, when it comes down to it this is the only true and tested way you can judge a wrestling match for yourself. Judging for the fans is a little more tricky but as for yourself this is what it boils down to for every single person who's ever watched a wrestling match.

Yes, people cite dangers thinking this way. What if you're depressed while watching a match or what if you were feeling terrific while watching the exact same bout? What if you're more emotionally attached to a bunch of wrestlers as compared to another group? What if you're more tired of one style as compared to another and this is affecting your feelings and henceforth judgement on a match?

 

Well, I've never really had a problem with this. You got to kind of keep all factors like this inside your head but from me now being a veteran wrestling viewer/fan I'm able to decide what I truly think is great and what is not through this very easy analysis:

 

Did the match leave me with a feeling of being terrific such as Atlantis vs Villano III?

 

or

 

Did the match just leave me flat?

 

That's what it all boils down to. Like I said, I believe it's why several of the WM13 fans think of Mania as being one of the best matches ever while the big fans of SS96 tend not to from what I've seen. They don't get the same feeling that the WM13 fans do. Enough rambling for now.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I'm not a big fan of either Bret/Austin match or Bret in general. I find myself enjoying stuff like Hogan/Race and Lawler/Dundee far more these days.

 

I recall the first was pretty good for what it was, though not on par with Bret/Henning KoR 93 or Bret/Owen Wrestlemania. It's an interesting one man show for the most part with Bret rolling out all of his trademark spots and bumps to carry Austin through it, especially with some great selling during the peril, going out of his way to make things like Vertical Suplexes and Abdominal Stretches much more capitvating than they had any right to be.

 

Of course the Wrestelmania match didn't hold up at all last time I watched it. Bret's performance was terribly lacking in emotion and purpose, despite the brilliant "he's lost it" angle on the previous Raw. Austin gave a much better performance though he was too injured or possibly just too incompetent to fill his time well at this point. The match climaxes during the Ring Post Figure Four and Austin's following chair transition, far too soon before the finish which is still stellar.

 

 

Of course it's about feeling but the best reviews are the ones where people can coherently explain what inspired their feelings or what they found so damn interesting.

[Naked Snake 0]

McMahon's commentary for the WrestleMania match lifts it up a few notches for me.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I'm not a big fan of either Bret/Austin match or Bret in general. I find myself enjoying stuff like Hogan/Race and Lawler/Dundee far more these days.

 

I recall the first was pretty good for what it was, though not on par with Bret/Henning KoR 93 or Bret/Owen Wrestlemania. It's an interesting one man show for the most part with Bret rolling out all of his trademark spots and bumps to carry Austin through it, especially with some great selling during the peril, going out of his way to make things like Vertical Suplexes and Abdominal Stretches much more capitvating than they had any right to be.

 

Of course the Wrestelmania match didn't hold up at all last time I watched it. Bret's performance was terribly lacking in emotion and purpose, despite the brilliant "he's lost it" angle on the previous Raw. Austin gave a much better performance though he was too injured or possibly just too incompetent to fill his time well at this point. The match climaxes during the Ring Post Figure Four and Austin's following chair transition, far too soon before the finish which is still stellar.

 

 

Of course it's about feeling but the best reviews are the ones where people can coherently explain what inspired their feelings or what they found so damn interesting.

 

I've got this same thread on smarkschoice and newmilleniumblues which now has a new location so if anyone's interested they can check out the threads there too.

 

Have you seen what I thought about the Bret vs Austin Mania match before?

 

I loved Bret's charactor in the match and how he portrayed it. I'm guessing here but I think the way you wanted Bret's charactor in the match would've been the wrong route to go down. I thought he did it just right. Brilliantly in fact. Austin did as well.

See, I also never thought the match climaxed where you say it does for you. It's been awhile since I watched it though.

 

 

The one match where I have the hardest time describing why I like it so much is the Benoit vs Kanemoto match from 95. Well, actually both of them. They're excellent preformances from Benoit and among the best of his career but I have a hard time describing why I have those feelings.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

The build-up to Austin/Bret was extremely well done, and the ring psychology, in additon to the post match seeds planted.

 

I think, and this is not a shot at either, is that Austin/Bret from SS is so well received is that it was the first time anyone had seen Bret in close to 7 months.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Have you seen what I thought about the Bret vs Austin Mania match before?"

 

If you haven't seen what I thought I'll dig my old post up on Smarkschoice.

 

 

"I loved Bret's charactor in the match and how he portrayed it. I'm guessing here but I think the way you wanted Bret's charactor in the match would've been the wrong route to go down. I thought he did it just right. Brilliantly in fact. Austin did as well. "

 

My problem is that Bret had NO character during the match. Let's please not build strawmen here and pretend my criticisms stem from the wrestlers not doing what I wanted them to do. Remember I love subtle performances and I don't find anything being conveyed during a great deal of Bret's work, he's exactly what prime Misawa is often unfairly bashed for being.

 

 

"See, I also never thought the match climaxed where you say it does for you. It's been awhile since I watched it though."

 

 

The crowd seemed to agree with me.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

And here it is:

 

 

Bret Hart vs. Steven Austin Wrestlemania 13

 

I re-watched this for the first time in ages as kind of a rubber match to help determine my final placement of Bret on my list.

 

Something that troubles me is how vague Bret's performance is, he's always been subtle but here he drifts into all out stoic territory. Odd since I recall he had a complete breakdown on the Raw leading up to Wrestlemania. Not once in this match did I get the impression that he was a man driven over the edge or even the excuse making whiner that Vince keeps billing him as, he doesn't even look to have a chip on his shoulder. A funny moment is when Jr is ranting about how "Bret is an out of control animal" when he actually looks very much focused and in control as he indifferently puts the chair to Austin's leg.

 

The spots are here such as Bret attempting Austin's ankle break chair stomp but he just doesn't commit to them. The manner in which Bret goes about setting up the spot conveys nothing about his mindset, is he giving Austin a taste of his own medicine, is he frustrated, is he over the edge? His performance leaves too many questions you have to fill in for yourself. The crowd seems to buy it as a "taste of own medicine" spot or perhaps their just popping because it's considered a death spot in the promotion.

 

There are however some very effective segments, such as the early leg work. While Bret doesn't tell us much about himself with his assault , it does give Austin the opportunity to get the crowd behind by playing up to his most likable characterstics. He may be a rule breaker and a punk but he's not coward or a quitter, and this is perhaps the best instance of them building to the climatic finish during the actual match. As always Austin seems to nail his character perfectly, especially during the bloody finish. However he tends to lose momentum after the hot transitions and have trouble moving the match foreward, often falling back on the standard Bret bumps to fill his time. Of course the match is an overall success and the as the fans are cheering Austin and booing Bret at the end but I'm left wandering if that would be the case if not for the great finish and post match antics. Of course they do get the most basic points across and most of the time, Austin is effectively protrayed as the character to get behind which is essential to the match's success. ***1/2.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Where was it written that Bret had to act that way in the match? Maybe he was able to control his emotions and focus on beating/hurting Austin. That's why I don't like making assumptions which lead to specific expectations. Just because Bret does the crybaby act outside the ring, doesn't necessarily mean he'll to act that way during a match. Maybe he realizes that to win the match, he has to keep things in check. Unless Bret Hart explicitly showed that his actions outside a match would translate to how he acts during a match, I don't see that criticism as being applicable.

 

To draw a parallel, it'd be the same as expecting a monster heel vs. smaller face match to be a one sided beatdown. Except it was never shown that the heel would be able to do that, because they've never had a match before, or even met face to face. How can you expect the heel to dominate, and criticise the match for not doing it, if there wasn't any reason to expect it? It's just an assumption based on "Well the heel is big, so he should dominate the face". But what if the face is more "skilled" and is able to wrestle evenly? So along those lines, "Bret has been acting like a crybaby in interviews and started acting crazy recently, so he should act like that in the match." But what if it's also part of Bret's character that he is able to keep his head together "when it counts", during a match? I guess the best way to sum it up is that there are variables when considering the logic of a match. The variable here is that a wrestling match itself is different than an interview or run-in. Just because Bret Hart bitches and violently goes after Austin outside the ring, doesn't mean he'll act that way in a wrestling match, where there are rules to follow.

 

So I really don't see that criticism. Both guy's acted like they didn't like each other, Bret tried to hurt Austin and the post-match stuff just furthered all that. That's I would really expect in the context of a wrestling match.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Let's please not build strawmen here and pretend my criticisms stem from the wrestlers not doing what I wanted them to do."

 

"My problem is that Bret had NO character during the match"

 

"Something that troubles me is how vague Bret's performance is, he's always been subtle but here he drifts into all out stoic territory. His performance leaves too many questions you have to fill in for yourself. "

 

 

"But what if it's also part of Bret's character that he is able to keep his head together "when it counts", during a match?"

 

If Bret actually protrayed that in the match, I certainly wouldn't complain.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Being stoic, having a cool head, whatever, is a character trait. Besides, Bret's actions made it somewhat clear what his character was. He hated Austin, and that was that.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Being stoic, having a cool head, whatever, is a character trait."

-Yes but it's a problem if your character becomes too cryptic, especially in a match with such complex booking.

 

 

"Bret's actions made it somewhat clear what his character was. "

 

-The spots are here such as Bret attempting Austin's ankle break chair stomp but he just doesn't commit to them.

 

 

Anyway:

 

"Well the heel is big, so he should dominate the face". But what if the face is more "skilled" and is able to wrestle evenly? So along those lines, "Bret has been acting like a crybaby in interviews and started acting crazy recently, so he should act like that in the match." But what if it's also part of Bret's character that he is able to keep his head together "when it counts", during a match? I guess the best way to sum it up is that there are variables when considering the logic of a match. The variable here is that a wrestling match itself is different than an interview or run-in. Just because Bret Hart bitches and violently goes after Austin outside the ring, doesn't mean he'll act that way in a wrestling match, where there are rules to follow."

 

Bad analogy firstly. Interviews and set ups are designed to build expectations, set the mood if you will and it is odd to have Bret "Goddamn You All!" promo on the big Raw before the match lead to such a stoic performance if not flat out misleading.

 

Also there were no rules in the match. wink, wink.

 

edit-that should read Goddamn

[World's Worst Man 0]

"But what if it's also part of Bret's character that he is able to keep his head together "when it counts", during a match?"

 

If Bret actually protrayed that in the match, I certainly wouldn't complain.

 

Touche. That's usually why I don't really care much about characters in the context of an overall feud. I just look for the characters/story to be established in the context of the wrestling match. There's too many little explanations one can come up with to explain why a wrestler is acting different than how he was during the buildup to the match, but if they establish the characters in the match itself, there's no need to fill the logic gaps.

 

"Being stoic, having a cool head, whatever, is a character trait."

-Yes but it's a problem if your character becomes too cryptic, especially in a match with such complex booking.

 

 

"Bret's actions made it somewhat clear what his character was. "

 

-The spots are here such as Bret attempting Austin's ankle break chair stomp but he just doesn't commit to them.

 

Fair enough. I'll have to watch it again sometime, as I've only seen it once since it originally aired (and at that time, I was hardly "smart"), and I usually look at things a fair bit closer the second time around.

 

Also there were no rules in the match. wink, wink.

 

I was more referring to Ken Shamrock being the ref.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

That's all fair enough. Again I thought they got the most basic points across and ***1/2 is very generous from somebody as stingy as me.

[Special K 0]

So, WP, to sum up your first post:

 

Whether you like a match or not is decided on whether you like a match or not.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Basically, this was a special time where you could see both excellent workers work two completely styles in 2 separate occasions and this is a perfect example of the endless Sports Vs. Entertainment argument to see which one you like better, its all about taste.

 

If you love technical wrestling, then SSeries is for you. However, if you prefer a nice, bloody brawl then BAM! WM 13, there you go.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I loved how Bret protrayed his charactor in this match. In fact, if he did it any other way it would've been detrimental to the match and especially Austin who got over so, so much with this bout.

 

Some might think Bret should've been an out of control maniac in this match similiar to a guy who plays Texas hold'em constantly with raises and bets the whole way through no matter what cards he has. Yeah, that can be scary but for my money there's nothing scarier than a ticked off calculated "heel". Now that is someone I would never want to encounter.

Bret is never completely out of control. He never was as a lot of his gimmick was that he was the best wrestler ever. A lot of that was from brainpower. Bret's not going to over the edge even if he's being tempted to do so.

 

Going into the match Bret is frustrated at things and doesn't like how things are going. Little breaks in his good guy armor are appearing. His integrity is not all there. Meanwhile Austin is a bad guy but he is showing good guy traits as well as one big likeable one. The big one being his honesty. Yeah, he's bad but at least he's honest about it. He's "not a deciever like Bret".

 

Bret himself is torn internally. I think he himself didn't even know what he was anymore and that scared him. He's fighting the dark side of himself with the good that remains inside. But the heel colours start to show in the bout as Bret succumbs to Austin's level. In a very important bit he goes into the crowd and brawls with Austin, he seems more of a jerk than ever before and in one of the best spots if not the best spot in the history of wrestling nails Austin with a ring bell showing that A)When desperate he shows he's no better than Austin which is something Bret did not want to admit to and B)does the thing that Rowddy Roddy Piper would not do against Bret at WM VIII. The kick at the end of the match was beyond awesome charactor storytelling as well. I don't know if I've ever seen a charactor played better in a match before.

 

I also want to point out to those who thought that Bret should be more of an insane physco is that it would've taken all the heat off of Austin's turn. If Bret is as rebellious as Austin is than why should we as fans cheer for Austin as well? Why would we care about the match as much if there is no distinct side to cheer for? Perhaps the coolest thing about the bout is watching Bret try to stop his descent into madness. To see him battle what he wants to be against at least to a degree of what he (and the fans suspect) is. If we do not see that battle unfold before our eyes than Bret's struggle becomes weak. We can not emphasize with it as much and the storyline situation becomes weaker as well. A lot of the reason Austin is being cheered is because of Bret's suspected charactor flaws. If Bret's charactor is hurt than it in turn hurts Austin as well. This would than curtail Austin's over momentum which was the main purpose of the bout.

The most fun wrestling is to be had when we see what charactors do in desperate situations. To see their true colours. This match is as good as any at portraying that.

[Naked Snake 0]

Anybody can pick the flaws in a match 9 years later. That's what it looks like is happening here...

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Some might think Bret should've been an out of control maniac in this match similiar to a guy who plays Texas hold'em constantly with raises and bets the whole way through no matter what cards he has."

 

"I also want to point out to those who thought that Bret should be more of an insane physco is that it would've taken all the heat off of Austin's turn. "

 

-I don't understand your continued implied insistence that I wanted Bret to wrestle like Brody on a coke binge when I thought I done cleared this up.

 

-The commentary and Bret's Raw promo were the ones that tried to establish Bret as an out of control crybaby lunatic, not me.

 

"A lot of the reason Austin is being cheered is because of Bret's suspected charactor flaws."

 

-No. Austin was being cheered because people identified with his "kick ass and take names" character. If anything he was a return to the glory days of the early 80s with faces like Lawler and pre-cartoon Hogan. Something that had been missing in the early 90s WWF with humble faces like Bret and the crowds loved it. The Bret angle was to capitalize off this trend, not create it.

 

"Going into the match Bret is frustrated at things and doesn't like how things are going. Little breaks in his good guy armor are appearing. His integrity is not all there."

 

-Hard to say really. Bret was never above paying back heels(pulling Henning's hair and crouching him or even dropping Austin's neck on the ropes at SS 96). I also recall him taking a chair to Nash and getting a bigger negative reaction than he ever got here.

 

"Bret himself is torn internally. I think he himself didn't even know what he was anymore and that scared him. He's fighting the dark side of himself with the good that remains inside. Perhaps the coolest thing about the bout is watching Bret try to stop his descent into madness. To see him battle what he wants to be against at least to a degree of what he (and the fans suspect) is. If we do not see that battle unfold before our eyes than Bret's struggle becomes weak."

 

-I'm afraid I don't see with the same depth perception as you. I simply don't see any of this. Now HBK's performance against Angle at Wrestlemania actually displayed an inner conflict before our eyes with HBK's expressions and second guesses. You don't have to read into spots and do guesswork.

 

"best spot in the history of wrestling nails Austin with a ring bell showing that A)When desperate he shows he's no better than Austin which is something Bret did not want to admit to and B)does the thing that Rowddy Roddy Piper would not do against Bret at WM VIII. The kick at the end of the match was beyond awesome charactor storytelling as well. I don't know if I've ever seen a charactor played better in a match before. "

 

One thing is for sure, Bret is still getting huge face pops during this spot and after he makes Austin submit which means that the fans didn't appear to make that connection at all. And when the WWF was trying to make us forget Austin was using several fancy submission holds against Bret at SS 96, I doubt they would play off a "similiar but not identical" spot from nearly six years ago. If they did it went over the crowd's heads which isn't good wrestling.

 

It's not until Bret refuses to release Austin and backs off from Shamrock that he's changed for the worse in the fan's eyes during this match. I like the match though even at the time I thought it was lacking during the second half , and again I thought it eventually accomplished what it set out to do, but I fail to see the depth in Bret's performance that he is often credited for outside of maybe when he's working the Sharpshooter during the tadatada finsh. Isn't he uncharacteristically shouting "give it up!" over and over or something, now that's a nice character touch the rest of the match is lacking.

[Guest wildpegasus]

"Some might think Bret should've been an out of control maniac in this match similiar to a guy who plays Texas hold'em constantly with raises and bets the whole way through no matter what cards he has."

 

"I also want to point out to those who thought that Bret should be more of an insane physco is that it would've taken all the heat off of Austin's turn. "

 

-I don't understand your continued implied insistence that I wanted Bret to wrestle like Brody on a coke binge when I thought I done cleared this up.

 

-The commentary and Bret's Raw promo were the ones that tried to establish Bret as an out of control crybaby lunatic, not me.

 

"A lot of the reason Austin is being cheered is because of Bret's suspected charactor flaws."

 

-No. Austin was being cheered because people identified with his "kick ass and take names" character. If anything he was a return to the glory days of the early 80s with faces like Lawler and pre-cartoon Hogan. Something that had been missing in the early 90s WWF with humble faces like Bret and the crowds loved it. The Bret angle was to capitalize off this trend, not create it.

 

"Going into the match Bret is frustrated at things and doesn't like how things are going. Little breaks in his good guy armor are appearing. His integrity is not all there."

 

-Hard to say really. Bret was never above paying back heels(pulling Henning's hair and crouching him or even dropping Austin's neck on the ropes at SS 96). I also recall him taking a chair to Nash and getting a bigger negative reaction than he ever got here.

 

"Bret himself is torn internally. I think he himself didn't even know what he was anymore and that scared him. He's fighting the dark side of himself with the good that remains inside. Perhaps the coolest thing about the bout is watching Bret try to stop his descent into madness. To see him battle what he wants to be against at least to a degree of what he (and the fans suspect) is. If we do not see that battle unfold before our eyes than Bret's struggle becomes weak."

 

-I'm afraid I don't see with the same depth perception as you. I simply don't see any of this. Now HBK's performance against Angle at Wrestlemania actually displayed an inner conflict before our eyes with HBK's expressions and second guesses. You don't have to read into spots and do guesswork.

 

"best spot in the history of wrestling nails Austin with a ring bell showing that A)When desperate he shows he's no better than Austin which is something Bret did not want to admit to and B)does the thing that Rowddy Roddy Piper would not do against Bret at WM VIII. The kick at the end of the match was beyond awesome charactor storytelling as well. I don't know if I've ever seen a charactor played better in a match before. "

 

One thing is for sure, Bret is still getting huge face pops during this spot and after he makes Austin submit which means that the fans didn't appear to make that connection at all. And when the WWF was trying to make us forget Austin was using several fancy submission holds against Bret at SS 96, I doubt they would play off a "similiar but not identical" spot from nearly six years ago. If they did it went over the crowd's heads which isn't good wrestling.

 

It's not until Bret refuses to release Austin and backs off from Shamrock that he's changed for the worse in the fan's eyes during this match. I like the match though even at the time I thought it was lacking during the second half , and again I thought it eventually accomplished what it set out to do, but I fail to see the depth in Bret's performance that he is often credited for outside of maybe when he's working the Sharpshooter during the tadatada finsh. Isn't he uncharacteristically shouting "give it up!" over and over or something, now that's a nice character touch the rest of the match is lacking.

 

I don't understand your continued implied insistence that I wanted Bret to wrestle like Brody on a coke binge when I thought I done cleared this up.

 

Wasn't talking about you man.

 

 

No. Austin was being cheered because people identified with his "kick ass and take names" character. If anything he was a return to the glory days of the early 80s with faces like Lawler and pre-cartoon Hogan. Something that had been missing in the early 90s WWF with humble faces like Bret and the crowds loved it. The Bret angle was to capitalize off this trend, not create it.

 

Yes, he was definitely getting cheered for his kick but persona and charisma but it was Bret's charactor that helped the fans get even more behind Austin during these times. Like an official "It's okay to cheer for Austin now, go ahead." The kick after the bout was the FINAL "It's okay to cheer for Austin now". Everything else was a subtle build until the climax of the kicking the leg bit.

 

 

Yeah and like you said there Bret had his fans and his pops here late into the match but that's just because it was Bret. Back when I watched this I knew this double turn was going to happen but there was still no way on earth I was going to start cheering for Austin and rooting against Bret who was the guy I'd seen scratch, bite and crawl his way up to the top of the WWF. I would think a lot of fans would be thinking the same way.There's nothing you can do against that except try. Austin was still a newcomer and coolness can only bring you so far.

 

 

The WWF forgetting Austin used to be the ringmaster bothered me as well but nothing can be perfect.

 

 

The Piper bit with the bell is just something for the hardcore fans. A cool little extra (something I find Bret great for) so it doesn't matter if it goes over anyone's head because in that sense it's not meant to hit everyone squarely over it. The main point of it really is that Bret used it in the first place. It still fits into the match perfectly.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Wasn't talking about you man."

 

-No problem.

 

 

" Yes, he was definitely getting cheered for his kick but persona and charisma but it was Bret's charactor that helped the fans get even more behind Austin during these times. Like an official "It's okay to cheer for Austin now, go ahead." The kick after the bout was the FINAL "It's okay to cheer for Austin now". Everything else was a subtle build until the climax of the kicking the leg bit."

 

-It was the official turn and you won't find me complaining about Bret's post match antics.

 

 

"The Piper bit with the bell is just something for the hardcore fans. A cool little extra (something I find Bret great for) so it doesn't matter if it goes over anyone's head because in that sense it's not meant to hit everyone squarely over it. "

 

-Than it's not that important to the story. Perhaps if an inner conflict was played up more it would come out more clear that Bret was allowing himself to a cross a line. Hell, HBK has cheated his entire career but to watch the Angle match you would think he was selling his soul after the low blow and what not. Now that's an effective performance at work. Or even with Piper as melodramatic as his perforamnce was, he made the bell shot look like he tempting to kill his own son or something. Actions may speak louder than words but they don't speak louder than emotions.

 

To bring up the brawling example in the match, it's really no different than the way say Bret would brawl with the Berserker at a Garden House Show. However you have someone like Hogan in the Garden Flair matches, who threw his punches and chops with so much more conviction than usual that you got the impression this time it really is personal.

 

 

"The main point of it really is that Bret used it in the first place."

 

-Yeah but it's not something that jumps out and says Bret has lost his soul. If there was no post match antics beyond this point, Bret would still walk away the babyface in the eyes of the majority of the fans.