Cruiserweight Division

[Guest Anglesault]

It had a very soft landing, but it was decent.

I don't see Angle tossing people through the ring with his spinning Samoan Drop. Landings from moves are usually soft...

I think the people that Angle has beaten with the Angle Slam this year can be counted on one hand. That move has lost ALL it's cred because everyone clings on to him for dear life and they just kind of drop. And no one sells it. That's why he has the Ankle Lock.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

How exactly is the Knoble/Helms feud going to get over the division?  It might get over both wrestlers, but it will do more for NIDIA than the belt or the other cruiserweights.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

Funny, considering all WCW Cruisers are WWE Cruisers now, save Tajiri. That's quite a stretch of the word brilliant, if you ask me.

 

I like you.

 

But anyway I think the cruiser division looks pretty good right about now, myself. You've got Hurricane (over), Billy Kidman (getting over), Tajiri (over), Maven (over), Chavo (getting over) and Jamie Knoble (brand new).

 

Then you have Mysterio coming in; and it's not a tough call to say that he will be over after maybe his second, third match? And with all those dudes you have a seven man cruiserweight roster.

 

Then consider Scotty 2 Hotty when he comes back and it rounds out to eight... And that guy happens to be over.

 

I think it's looking pretty good myself. I'm a big fan of crusiers and I think that right there is one of the better cruiser line-ups I've seen. Everyone (with the exception of maybe Maven; though we've never really seen him go) is capable of working a sweet match.

[Guest raptor]

There are various degree of tombstones. Some looke REALLY bad (I'm looking at YOU, Kane) so until i see it, I can't comment on Knoble.

 

Kidman has that "I'll kind of shit on your head" thing that looks real bad. And the SSP never did anything for me. It just just seems way to low impact for me.

Knoble's is pretty good... it's the twisting variation that Credible used for a while. I doubt he'll be using it, though.

 

I agree about the Kid Krusher, but I think the SSP has a good impactory illusion (hey, I just made up a word!), as far as splashes go.

[Guest raptor]

I think the people that Angle has beaten with the Angle Slam this year can be counted on one hand. That move has lost ALL it's cred because everyone clings on to him for dear life and they just kind of drop. And no one sells it. That's why he has the Ankle Lock.

I agree... but nobody will ever tap to the Anglelock, either. They seem to be more comfortable laying down for the Angleslam. I think he might need a new finish, since the upper-card's paranoia about submission finishes has killed that style.

[Guest Anglesault]

I just don't like the SSP. I just don't see what's so special about it. They don't get enough velocity.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Well they all can't be arm-shattering moonsaults.

 

You can't see what is so special about a SSP?  Defying gravity and motion is one of them.

[Guest Anglesault]

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong move. Isn't the SSP the move where he just kind of jumps of and nails a backflip?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Jumps forwards and 'nails a backflip', two opposite motions.

[Guest Anglesault]

Yeah. That's what i was thinking of. Big whoop. I can see Brock's version being cool because Brock is huge.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Helms isn't using the Vetebreaker right nwo, and I've never seen it. All I see is the Eye of the Hurricane (WTF is that supposed to do?) And that weak ass Hurri-chokeslam that occasionally hits.

 

There are various degree of tombstones. Some looke REALLY bad (I'm looking at YOU, Kane) so until i see it, I can't comment on Knoble.

 

Kidman has that "I'll kind of shit on your head" thing that looks real bad. And the SSP never did anything for me. It just just seems way to low impact for me.

 

I wasn't wild for that brainbuster, but it was passable.

1) The point being made was some moves are too dangerous to be allowed, which is why the brainbusters are softer, the Vertebreaker isn't allowed, and we don't see piledriver's anymore. The Eye of the Hurricane is plenty affective. Hold the the guy in a standing dragon sleeper formation, and shove your arm/forearm into your apponents face, slamming their head into the mat. Hell, the first part of that is enough to get Undertaker submision wins. It's a good move.

 

2) Knoble's is fine. Like I said, he's quite the awesome "I know I can't ever be as good as Benoit, but I can try" (who has the same deal with Dynamite Kid, but now I'm rambling) wreslter, so give him a chance.

 

3) The SSP draws a pop which is as much as a finisher requires these days. The Stunner is actually pretty low impact if you sit and meticulously stare at it also, so don't bother with that stuff. Kidman's SSP is good enough that people pop for it, which it's good enough as a finisher.

 

4) The brainbuster looked great to me. Better than that "I'll almost drop you on your neck-just kidding" version I used to do.

 

By the way, having just seen Funaki/Chavo, I can safely say that Chavo is in need of a bigger push while Funaki should at least be playing second to Tajiri or something. Had WWE management not forgotten what they wanted in a Cruiserweight division again, they could have kept TAKA and Kaz Hayashi. That would have been one hell of a Japanese cruiser stable right there. Damn, I miss Kazy Hayashi.

[Guest Smeghead]

...that stupid foward roll over the back of a bent opponent (Used by Scotty too Hotty)...

You mean a Sunset Flip?

 

I'd join in on this pro-cruiser argument with Anglesault, but why bother?  He hates cruisers.  He always will hate cruisers.  Nothing we say will change his mind.  There's nothing wrong with that.  To each his own.  But this argument will go nowhere.  Just give it up.

 

A smark who hates cruisers.  Isn't that an oxymoron?

[Guest]

Funny, considering all WCW Cruisers are WWE Cruisers now, save Tajiri. That's quite a stretch of the word brilliant, if you ask me.

 

That's not what I meant. The WWE rings are not designed as well for cuisers as the WCW rings were.

 

And yes, I am brilliant.

[Guest Anglesault]

No, it's not a sunset flip. He just kind of rolls over him, lands on his feet, and they just continue whatever the hell they were doing in the first place.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

That's not what I meant. The WWE rings are not designed as well for cuisers as the WCW rings were.

So you think that alone explains why literally the exact same cast of Cruiserwieghts that used to be good aren't anymore? Lame. Just lame.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

No, it's not a sunset flip. He just kind of rolls over him, lands on his feet, and they just continue whatever the hell they were doing in the first place.

Considering this is Scotty 2 Hotty we're talking about, there are far more offensive moves you can call him on than a "forward-role sunset flip." Just thought I would throw that out. I mean geeze, pick your battles, at least.

[Guest]

Yeah. That's what i was thinking of. Big whoop. I can see Brock's version being cool because Brock is huge.

okay, it's common knowledge that the SSP is an extremely difficult move to pull off, even more so than a moonsault so yeah, I would say that it has a "big whoopish" quality about it

 

 

Of course, if this were Angle doing the SSP as a finisher you would think it was the coolest thing in the world, because... well, he's Angle, and you're in love with him

[Guest Brian]

"Then consider Scotty 2 Hotty when he comes back and it rounds out to eight... And that guy happens to be over."

 

Fuck that. Scotty too Hotty, Brian Christopher, those are McMahon versions of cruiserweights. Fuck them.

 

Japanese stable is great. I used that in FB, even called them Kaientai DX. I mean, Shiryu, TAKA, Funaki, what's not to love.

[Guest the 1inch punch]

To everyone going on aboot Hurricane's Finisher, he's trying to phase in the blockbuster, as a shot at Bagwell, but no one is buying it because of the Bagwell thing

[Guest]

So you think that alone explains why literally the exact same cast of Cruiserwieghts that used to be good aren't anymore? Lame. Just lame.

 

Yeah. WCW rings are small, which allowed the cruisers to have much more fast past matches. WWF rings are designed for big men.

[Guest Brian]

That and the ropes were steel, which is a universal practice except in the WWF, and allowed them to springboard better. Probably less ACL tears too.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

So you think that alone explains why literally the exact same cast of Cruiserwieghts that used to be good aren't anymore? Lame. Just lame.

 

Yeah. WCW rings are small, which allowed the cruisers to have much more fast past matches. WWF rings are designed for big men.

The ring size can be adjusted to. It's not that dificult. Ring size is only a small factor in what makes a fast-paced match. The ropes make spring-boards more dificult, but it's been worked around by plenty of guys.

 

The ring does not change much. It's still the same guys working the same matches. Besides Tajiri, the name change is the only difference.

[Guest dr deaf]

one problem the cruisers have is they're generally not allowed to pull off the devistating moves.  How many people marked out when Chavo hit the emerald fusion a couple weeks ago?  Good solid move that drops the opponent on their head.  

 

They're limited, generally, to the fluffy moves like the bronco buster and worm or whatever horseshit.  But remember, the people pulling those off have no real credibility as cruisers.  I mean, we're talking people like scotty too hotty, x-pac, and whoever else wwe tried to bring in as a small guy to be squished by the big guy.  There was no true cruiser matches till recently cause mcmahon has a woody for big boys.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

one problem the cruisers have is they're generally not allowed to pull off the devistating moves.  How many people marked out when Chavo hit the emerald fusion a couple weeks ago?  Good solid move that drops the opponent on their head.  

 

They're limited, generally, to the fluffy moves like the bronco buster and worm or whatever horseshit.  But remember, the people pulling those off have no real credibility as cruisers.  I mean, we're talking people like scotty too hotty, x-pac, and whoever else wwe tried to bring in as a small guy to be squished by the big guy.  There was no true cruiser matches till recently cause mcmahon has a woody for big boys.

I'm pretty sure that little potshot Anglesault threw in there about the Bronco Buster pertained to Rey, who is rumored to be in the works for a signing and a big push.

 

And in a way, he's right. Rey's "Gonnad Light" character wasn't too hot. However, he still rules in his own right and deserves a push, so Anglesault can go eat Drano for all I care.

[Guest]

They're limited, generally, to the fluffy moves like the bronco buster and worm or whatever horseshit.  

Going off on a tangent here, but I find it slightly amusing that a lot of the guys in the WWF get injured from the fluffy moves and half-paced matches, as opposed to even riskier moves or the north american indy or puro style; where you may hear about injuries, but guys are somewhat conditioned to it because of longer exposure, and thus can put up with it or work through. The WWF has to protect their pretty boys, you know. Ending my comment, a big fuck you for the "WWF style" of wrestling. Nothing even seems different in the end, as most work the same type of matches these days.

 

About this entire Cruiserweight debate, I will agree with Anglesault, in what I think he's saying about Cruiserweight-style moves... That being that there's a lot of wasted motion and the flippiness is too much at times. He seems to generally dislike the style, and you can't really fault him for it... to each his own. I know what he means by referring to Scotty's flip though (the thing when an opponent telegraphs, and Scotty jumps onto the back and rolls off), then again Scotty's movelist never was the shining example of ideal.

 

When the Cruisers are given time to work, and more room for better moves, that's a good thing obviously, and psychology even comes into play, not what you'd expect from the typical match. I think one reason why the Cruiser matches havne't been exactly stellar in the WWF, is because the competitors are forced to fit their key spots into a 2-3 minute frame, and the match comes off badly in the end.

 

And while the division is better than it has been in the past, one, maybe two, cruiser matches a week isn't exactly what I'd call a push. I learned of the style from WCW, but the WWF division will never be as good as the standard they've set, not as much as they or the fans want.

 

Now referring to the recent Rey Jr comments. I actually think since the injuries began building up and he began to tone down, he became a BETTER and more well-rounded worker. The Bronco Buster is obviously a shitty move, and Rey's Hip-Hop-Konnan Jr end character was even shittier, but he's just as good as he's always been, despite not pulling some of the moves he used to.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"Going off on a tangent here, but I find it slightly amusing that a lot of the guys in the WWF get injured from the fluffy moves and half-paced matches, as opposed to even riskier moves or the north american indy or puro style; where you may hear about injuries, but guys are somewhat conditioned to it because of longer exposure, and thus can put up with it or work through. The WWF has to protect their pretty boys, you know. Ending my comment, a big fuck you for the "WWF style" of wrestling. Nothing even seems different in the end, as most work the same type of matches these days."

 

This is a load of crap, because most WWF guys work hundreds of dates a year, while a lot of the "stars" on the indies are what you call "weekend warriors" and only work a match or two a week. As for puro, there are plenty of guys that get injured over in Japan. Among top wrestlers currently on the shelf are Toshiaki Kawada, Naomichi Marifuji, and Kenta Kobashi, to name a few.

[Guest]

Hell Look at Super J Cup tapes, the Cruiserweights Use Tombstone Piledrivers as Setups for Top Rope moves, its not that the moves themselves as Devastating, even though anything in Wrestling Hurts, just a matter on how you sell it.. Some Crusiers moves isn't pain moves than its Awkward Stunning Moves, Like Hurricanrana's the Natural body motion would be screaming if someone just took them 360 to the mat from a standing position or worse a Dragon Kid Dragon Canrana, with the 450 forward motion then then Catch lock and Take down Hurricarana same velocity in the Opposite direction.

 

oww

[Guest raptor]

To everyone going on aboot Hurricane's Finisher, he's trying to phase in the blockbuster, as a shot at Bagwell, but no one is buying it because of the Bagwell thing

I don't think the Overcast will be his primary finisher, that's still the Eye of the Hurricane. I believe by adding the Overcast and Chokeslam, he's just developing his charcater like he did in WCW,where he had a plethora of moves he could finish with (Froggy Style, Sugar Smack, Vertebreaker, Nightmare on Helm's Street, etc...)

[Guest raptor]

To everyone going on aboot Hurricane's Finisher, he's trying to phase in the blockbuster, as a shot at Bagwell, but no one is buying it because of the Bagwell thing

I don't think the Overcast will be his primary finisher, that's still the Eye of the Hurricane. I believe by adding the Overcast and Chokeslam, he's just developing his charcater like he did in WCW,where he had a plethora of moves he could finish with (Froggy Style, Sugar Smack, Vertebreaker, Nightmare on Helm's Street, etc...)

[Guest]

(Froggy Style, Sugar Smack, Vertebreaker, Nightmare on Helm's Street, etc...)

God I hated those names (all except Vertibreaker.) I don't know who was responsible for naming a simple super kick a "sugar smack" but something tells me that it's the same person that re-named the shooting star press the "Kidmakazee" and the corkscrew the "spinning twistee"  

 

and all signs are pointing to Schiavone