9/11 Footage

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Happy 5th of July, Doc.......

 

<<<"Do any of you look at that footage and feel anything besides anger?"

 

Yes. Grief for the dead and their families, and pride in how the country rallied together, and in how our President led us thru that difficult time. But more than anything else, I get pissed off when I watch it.>>>

 

Hey, fuckin great. People should rally together, but why do I feel repulsed enough to look down this thread and waste valuable moments of my day to tell you all how blood-thirsty you are? Hey, great that you want the people behind this to be wiped off the face of the Earth. Guess what....me too!!! That doesn't mean I want Islamic culture to be demeaned or written off as something that should be "bombed away" or "made dead." I've heard this comments on this board that said "we should bomb Mecca", and while said comment may be made in a bit of jest, there is truth in every joke. If Dubbya told you we would have to wipe out large populations of mostly civilians, many who publicily and privately support a move towards a democracy, people who realize just like you how beyond repair the world is in the hands of greedy businessman who will sacrifice civil and human rights for money, for "the good of the nation", would you go along like a little sheep, or would you stop and think of the suffering at hand just so you feel comfortable??? Doc, I'm not addressing this at you per se, but to those who feel the need to be sheep to the opinions of those in charge, even if those in charge want to strip you of your civil rights and place you in a state of permanent paranoia, the death of the soul, the victory of the machine.....You at least realize the insanity of someone like Ashcroft and his Patriot Act, and you at least realize the insanity of using terrorism as an excuse for the rich and powerful to strip away the rights of ordinary, honest people, and I understand deeply your vengeance at 9/11 (although to be honest, my shock still outweighs any anger I have), but I hope you understand how sick it makes me to read through this thread and see the bloodlust. Color me naive, and I would rather be naive than someone convinced that the only way to solve the problem is to blast away the entire Arab world into dust. Again Doc, a blanket statement for what it's worth, but I would bet money that too many people in this country secretly believe that. Am I wrong? I hope so, very deeply......

 

<<<Let me see if I can sum up your worldview: all you need is love,>>>

 

-Yep, fuckin John Lennon. Brilliant......

 

<<<why can't we all just get along,>>>

 

-Can you give me a cheap answer besides "that's how things really are". Who gave you the authority to tell me what my and our reality should be like? I'd much rather give people the benefit of the doubt, no matter what "they" say, that write them off as expendable to bombs or gas chambers or my wallet. If you think the opposite, then you are the problem.....

 

<<<"None of you seem to realize the very simple fact that your high-and-mighty attitude is the reason terrorism exists."

 

That would be because a perverse and cruel religion is the reason for this particular brand of terrorism. I'm surprised your profound inisights into people and the world didn't tell you that, Chris.>>>

 

-CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!! I'm glad you all can read and think!!! HIGH AND MIGHTY PEOPLE=THOSE WHO TWIST RELIGION!!!!!! Folks, ever consider the fact that your comfy little lives, filled with American pride, are more of a religion to you, worthy of your undying lust for nothing but the best, that any place you go to on Sunday. You may work a shit job, but you can still curl up, with a nice beer or joint, in front of the tele, watching reruns of "The Cosby Show", while half of Africa dies of AIDS and all those "poor folk" bust their behinds to make sure you can sit on your lazy ass. Again, Doc, count to 10, because this is nothing personal towards to you, but to what I think is keeping America from being America, much how your conservative beliefs (if you don't mind the labeling) bring you to these message boards far more than is healthy for any of us, to speak out your opinions on what is keeping America from being America. We're on the same boat, Doc, just looking out different ends.....

 

<<< Let's all hold hands, sing "Anarchy in the UK" and maybe all the terrorists will go away? >>>

 

-Yep. Fuckin Pistols rock, babee!!!!!!

 

<<<There's a reason these people are in positions of authority, Chris: it's because WE PUT THEM THERE.>>>

 

-Yeah, but Doc come on. Agree with me if you will, and if not, c'est la ve, but that "we" that put them there often isn't the brightest bunch..

 

<<<If we're not supposed to listen to them and trust their judgment, then our entire system of government is a sham and we may as well just start the fuck over.>>>

 

-It's not a sham, but its far from perfect. The 2000 election is still too shady for my tastes, although my vote for Nader may be far more responsible for Gore losing the election (and that's a lesson for the Democratic Party, and whether or not they learned will decide if they beat Bush in 2004). I enjoy and agree with Libertarian and certain other conservative views that suggest the gov't get off our backs. Hell, that's just the first step. When I say that the people behind 9/11 (supposedly-PARANOIA!!! PARANOIA!! DAMN THOSE FRENCH!!!) "just want to be left alone", I mean they don't want McDonald's and Wal-Mart to hypnotize their people. They feel very strongly about the rules of their religion, which may appear strict to our liberated attitudes, and in many cases are very wrong and contrary to our views, but they have the choice to believe to what they want to, and when then feel a view is being forced upon them, right or wrong, they strike out. This is the fucked-up way the world works IMO....

 

<<<For the record, I don't think we should do all manners of cruel torture to Usama bin Laden. He's not worth the effort, and I don't want to see us go down that road. We've been exercising swift justice thus far, and that pattern should hold even (and especially) when we find the man who masterminded the terrible attacks of last September.>>>

 

-So far the "War on Terrorism" has been a rousing success. Great. The U.S military is now a transcendentally invincible force. Great. Still no reason to hope for the mass death of Arab populations who are as innocent and fooled to the reality of the world as any sheep here. BAHHHHHHH!!! A Holy War will make a lot of money, but you won't see a red cent. Still, a hopefully horrific blanket observation, and I hope anyone who hopes for this takes a moment and remembers they are a human being.....

[Guest Cancer Marney]

my vote for Nader may be far more responsible for Gore losing the election (and that's a lesson for the Democratic Party, and whether or not they learned will decide if they beat Bush in 2004)

That's probably the most delusional sentence in the post, which is saying something.

[Guest EricMM]

my vote for Nader may be far more responsible for Gore losing the election (and that's a lesson for the Democratic Party, and whether or not they learned will decide if they beat Bush in 2004)

 

That's probably the most delusional sentence in the post, which is saying something.

 

Why is it delusional? Perhaps in countrys that were undecided, people who voted for Nader instead of Gore gave away key states. I don't know.

 

And maybe if the Democrats did something to truly distance themselves from the republicans, there would be a reason for people to vote besides how they registered. The sheer fact that the US practically voted 50/50 says to me that no one candidate stood out. IMO.

 

But why was that statement delusional (except for lacking an ending "my vote for nader may be far more responsable...?) THAN WHAT!?

 

-Eric

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Why is it delusional?

Because whether or not the Democrats learned their lesson (and whether or not it was the right lesson to learn) will be utterly inconsequential in the 2004 election.

[Guest EricMM]

Why? You think that Bush will undoubtably win? I mean it's not like he's done anything magnificent in the last few years. And I'm talking about his own stuff. Not reactionary. I think that ANY president could handle the whole war on terror satisfactorily. America has resources enough that any leader could win it. And would win it. Like Bush will. Or Cheney would if bush had choked on the pretzel. Or Gore would have if he had won his states.

 

Whereas what other things has Bush done? What decisions has he made to change this country for the better? Not that I am on top of the issues so please PROVE ME WRONG. I just remember the whole arsnic and kyoto mixups but I'm just a Liberal Lamb! BAH!!

 

-Eric

(who thinks whoever started the whole Bah thing on smarkboard started something )

[Guest Cancer Marney]

please PROVE ME WRONG

Certainly. 74% approval rating.

[Guest EricMM]

What decisions has he made to change this country for the better? Not that I am on top of the issues so please PROVE ME WRONG. I just remember the whole arsnic and kyoto mixups but I'm just a Liberal Lamb! BAH!!

Certainly. 74% approval rating.

 

You did NOT answer my question. But that could be my fault. I meant to ask, what has Bush done as president, on his own, not in reaction to 9/11, to garner anything but redicule?

 

I remember him doing things like backing out of the Kyoto Treaty, and lowering environmental standards in regards to Arsenic in the drinking water. Those were both things that I disagree with especially the Arsenic.

 

What has bush done to keep his place? Because any and every president would have seemed like a demigod post 9/11. IMO of course.

 

-Eric

[Guest Downhome]

Just for everyones information, I would like to say that 9/11 pissed me off, majory. The very next day, I almost joined the US Army because of it, just so I could have a chance at doing something to help. Now obviously, I didn't join as I'm still here, posting to with all of you guys. I decided NOT to join out of pure anger, as that is no reason to go off and make such a life altering decision, however...

 

...I find myself still with the urge to join, therefore I have recently began a fitness program. I am training to get into TOP shape that I can get into, and I am giving myself a year to get to where ever I can get to in a year. If one year from now (actually a couple of weeks ago), if I still want to join, I will do it then. I am giving myself all the time to think it over, and to go in prepared. There...

 

...you just learned something about Downhome.

[Guest bob_barron]

Good luck Downhome- I have a lot of respect for anyone who goes to fight for our freedoms.

[Guest Downhome]

Good luck Downhome- I have a lot of respect for anyone who goes to fight for our freedoms.

Thanks a lot, it means a lot to me. Even if I decide not to join that, I am going to join something to contribute to "the greater cause". Something in law enforcement, Americorps (sp?), or something like that.

[Guest bob_barron]

What is Americorps?

[Guest Downhome]

What is Americorps?

Just an organazation that helps out with certain issues around the US. From the homeless to hunger to ill to the enviroment. I know it isn't the Army, but I suppose you could say I just want to help people, make a difference, and all of the other cliched sayings you are familier with.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

You did NOT answer my question. But that could be my fault.

Yes, I did. And yes, it is your fault, because you changed your question completely. Your initial question was why I believe the President will win in 2004 regardless of what the DNC does. I answered it.

[Guest bob_barron]

Hmmm that sounds really cool- whatever you do you'll helping this country a great deal. Kudos to you. :-)

[Guest DrTom]

"People should rally together, but why do I feel repulsed enough to look down this thread and waste valuable moments of my day to tell you all how blood-thirsty you are?"

 

Only you can answer that one, Chris. While Those who wish to do all manners of torture to Usama bin Laden are certainly bloodthirsty, I can sympathize with their desire for revenge.

 

"That doesn't mean I want Islamic culture to be demeaned or written off as something that should be "bombed away" or "made dead.""

 

I'm so sorry we're offending all those nice, decent, peaceful, church-going Islamic folks in the Middle East. Any culture based on intolerance, brutal oppression, and genocide is damn deserving of being demeaned and having scorn heaped upon it. This is the problem with multiculturalism: it's taught us that all cultures are good and they all just want to be our friends. The truth is, that's a bunch of shit, as the radical Islamic culture is as wicked and evil as they come, and I don't think they're terribly interested in befriending us.

 

"... although to be honest, my shock still outweighs any anger I have... "

 

My anger outweighed my shock when I saw the first tower fall. It still does.

 

"Folks, ever consider the fact that your comfy little lives, filled with American pride, are more of a religion to you, worthy of your undying lust for nothing but the best, that any place you go to on Sunday."

 

I can actually see what you're saying here. I wouldn't have the same condemning attitude about it if I pointed it out (since materialism is probably better -- or at least more honest -- than the crap people get exposed to on Sundays), but I can see why you'd make the observation.

 

"... while half of Africa dies of AIDS... "

 

Not our problem. Tragic, but not our problem to solve.

 

" Agree with me if you will, and if not, c'est la ve, but that "we" that put them there often isn't the brightest bunch.."

 

That's true, but it doesn't change the fact that the American voters put the president into office, and implicit in that is that we trusted him enough to appoint a competent cabinet. And with the notable exceptions of Ashcroft and Mineta, I think Bush's Cabinet is excellent.

 

"The 2000 election is still too shady for my tastes..."

 

STOP. I am NOT going down this road again. There's already a thread devoted to people who can't stop carping about this two years after the fact, so if you want to cry in your beer about it, go there and do it.

 

"although my vote for Nader may be far more responsible for Gore losing the election..."

 

I think not carrying his own state might have had *something* to do with it...

 

"They feel very strongly about the rules of their religion, which may appear strict to our liberated attitudes, and in many cases are very wrong and contrary to our views, but they have the choice to believe to what they want to..."

 

Any respect I may have for their beliefs, rights, and choices stops when they murder 3000 of our innocent civilians. Now the only right of theirs I'm concerned with is their right to die.

 

"A Holy War will make a lot of money, but you won't see a red cent."

 

I don't want any money out of this. I just want this brand of terrorism stopped, and to see our dead innocents avenged. That's all I've ever wanted out of the war on terror.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Yeah Downhome, good luck with whatever you choose. It takes a certain kind of person to choose a military career, and as much as I tend to disagree with military lines of thought sometimes, I have all the respect for those who want to honestly defend what this country really stands for.....

 

Hey Marney, since you seem to know it all, and since I'm just some naive kid who never gets out of the house and doesn't know how to properly kiss a woman and doesn't know how to tie my shoes and who still sleeps with stuffed animals and who still has daddy come rescue me in times of trouble, why don't you enlighten me and possibly engage in a discussion as to what you found so delusional in my previous post. Then again, it probably won't get anywhere since we're both spoiled brats......

 

Now, on to you Doc, and don't be frightened.....

 

<<<"That doesn't mean I want Islamic culture to be demeaned or written off as something that should be "bombed away" or "made dead.""

 

I'm so sorry we're offending all those nice, decent, peaceful, church-going Islamic folks in the Middle East. Any culture based on intolerance, brutal oppression, and genocide is damn deserving of being demeaned and having scorn heaped upon it. This is the problem with multiculturalism: it's taught us that all cultures are good and they all just want to be our friends. The truth is, that's a bunch of shit, as the radical Islamic culture is as wicked and evil as they come, and I don't think they're terribly interested in befriending us.>>>

 

-Yes, those elements exist, but I think you're really dependent on blanket statements when it comes to defining Islamic culture. I will admit to you that yes, public opinion in the Arab world is not exactly friendly towards America, but I want you to explain to me how returning that type of attitude from our side of the pond helps in any way. Again, I'm all for the benefit of the doubt for a group of people at best trying to live their lives, and at worst simply trying to survive, and whose attitudes towards our country and way of life is influenced by powerful media figures like Bin Laden who rile up the masses so big money and big prestige comes their way, all at the expense of innocent lives. You don't appreciate the blanket condemnation of America that exists in the Arab world. They don't appreciate your blanket statements about their way of life (although certainly jusitifable in the cases and attitudes of intolerance and oppression that exist, as I find some of their statements about our "decadent way of life" justifable in some cases as well, Enron being a perdect example of America gone totally wrong). Yes, the radical aspects of Islamic culture is the problem, for they are so far away from the basic tenets of Islam, like the basic tenets of any religion, that preach nothing but simple respect and brotherhood, but by returning this radical nature in a blood-lust that goes beyond the simple and understandable desire for revenge will not solve anything.

 

<<<"The 2000 election is still too shady for my tastes..."

 

STOP. I am NOT going down this road again. There's already a thread devoted to people who can't stop carping about this two years after the fact, so if you want to cry in your beer about it, go there and do it.>>>

 

-Jiminy, it's been two years already??? Never cried in my beer though, and I don't think I wanna start.

 

<<<"although my vote for Nader may be far more responsible for Gore losing the election..."

 

I think not carrying his own state might have had *something* to do with it...>>>

 

-Very true, and I'll say this again slowly for those who didn't seem to understand it the first time, but simple math shows that if Gore had recieved all the votes that went to Nader (which assumes that those who voted for Nader would've even voted for Gore if given the chance, and I wouldn't have to be perfectly honest), there would've been no Florida controversy and Gore might even have a 74% approval rating right now, because it is true that any president could've handled the terrorist crisis well. It's not that hard in a time of crisis for a leader to rally the people around him. If Dubbya could do it, anyone could......

 

<<<"They feel very strongly about the rules of their religion, which may appear strict to our liberated attitudes, and in many cases are very wrong and contrary to our views, but they have the choice to believe to what they want to..."

 

Any respect I may have for their beliefs, rights, and choices stops when they murder 3000 of our innocent civilians. Now the only right of theirs I'm concerned with is their right to die.>>>

 

-Again, whose "they" in this case? The common people of the Arab/Islamic world who work their asses off all day, much like a lot of us do, and who have a lot of residual anger, much like a lot of us do, and who filter this anger out through their media, which is used by people like Bin Laden to drum up a sick hatred for America that only helps those making money off this "war on terrorism", while this mass of common people gets nothing but equal scorn from our side, and at worse, bombs on their head??? The twisting of Islamic culture is the problem, not the culture itself. Get rid of people like Bin Laden who twist Islam into a sick force of perverted rape, of which 9/11 is a perfect symbol, and give these people their culture back. Again, color me naive, but blanket statements like the ones you make about the Arab world, which basically paints them as a bunch of blood-thirsty animals who have nothing better to than hate America does not help the current situation in any extent...

[Guest DrTom]

"I will admit to you that yes, public opinion in the Arab world is not exactly friendly towards America, but I want you to explain to me how returning that type of attitude from our side of the pond helps in any way."

 

Well, if they're all dead, they can't exactly attack us again.

 

"Yes, the radical aspects of Islamic culture is the problem, for they are so far away from the basic tenets of Islam, like the basic tenets of any religion, that preach nothing but simple respect and brotherhood..."

 

Whoa, full stop. Islam doesn't preach simple respect and brotherhood. The entire religion is all about intolerance, hatred, misery, and death. I use "radical Islam" to denote the bent that has come to political power, used that despicable religion to shape a country, and become terrorists. All the messages of hate are right there in the Koran, Chris.

 

"but simple math shows that if Gore had recieved all the votes that went to Nader (which assumes that those who voted for Nader would've even voted for Gore if given the chance, and I wouldn't have to be perfectly honest), there would've been no Florida controversy..."

 

Doesn't that still presume that a president is elected by the popular vote, which simply isn't the case? Conservative (not in the political sense) estimates say that the press giving Florida to Gore early cost Bush 400,000 votes down there, which would have given him the state and all its electoral votes without a whisper of controversy. But why bring what-ifs from two years ago into this?

 

"Again, whose "they" in this case?"

 

The followers of a disgusting religion... you know, the same "innocent" people you've spent a few paragraphs deifying for the rest of us. I don't think we need to do anything more than we're doing right now, but if another big terrorist attack comes our way, then I'll be calling for all of them to die, so be ready.

[Guest bob_barron]

Horrible religion??? I agree with you a lot Dr. Tom but I know a lot of Muslims and they don't seem to be terrorists to me.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<"I will admit to you that yes, public opinion in the Arab world is not exactly friendly towards America, but I want you to explain to me how returning that type of attitude from our side of the pond helps in any way."

 

Well, if they're all dead, they can't exactly attack us again.>>>

 

-Jesus Christ, Doc.....Let me get this straight. If another terrorist attack happens along the lines of 9/11 or worse, you advocate the mass murder of the entire Islamic world?? You have to be fucking kidding me, or I must be mis-understanding you, because that is beyond terrible, and exactly the kind of attitude and belief that I think is ruining this country just as fast as any planes flying into our buildings. What will that really solve when their is no chance in hell that would ever happen, because amazingly enough, the leaders of the free world, from Washington to Tokyo, are far too responsible to even dream of such a scenario. Christ, these people may not like you or the way you live, but unless they actively try to hurt you, there is no reason to wish a mass campaign of genocide upon them. We need to concentrate on the ACTUAL TERRORISTS and their influence upon these people. We need to get rid of the hate that these people hold towards us, not the actual people themselves. What do you think a person in Egypt or Pakistan or Iran thinks when they read something like what you said?? Even before they think anything, they feel a hell of a lot of anger, and I agree with that anger 110%. Does that mean I'm a terrorist? Does that mean the only right I have is the right to die???

 

<<<"Yes, the radical aspects of Islamic culture is the problem, for they are so far away from the basic tenets of Islam, like the basic tenets of any religion, that preach nothing but simple respect and brotherhood..."

 

Whoa, full stop. Islam doesn't preach simple respect and brotherhood. The entire religion is all about intolerance, hatred, misery, and death. I use "radical Islam" to denote the bent that has come to political power, used that despicable religion to shape a country, and become terrorists. All the messages of hate are right there in the Koran, Chris.>>>

 

-Would you like to show some of "these messages of hate"? Does every single verse in the Koran call for all those who don't support Islam to die?? I suppose all the Muslims who live in and love America should be killed too right, or should they be spared because they love America, because that what's this is all about: whether or not you love America, and if not, well then here's a bomb in your bean soup because you're not worthy of living according to our high-and-mighty standards. First off, you sound like a paranoid French person who thinks every Christian in America supports the Religious Right, and secondly, you sound just like an Arab person who thinks every one in America lives in total sexual and material decadence.

 

<<<"Again, whose "they" in this case?"

 

The followers of a disgusting religion... you know, the same "innocent" people you've spent a few paragraphs deifying for the rest of us. I don't think we need to do anything more than we're doing right now, but if another big terrorist attack comes our way, then I'll be calling for all of them to die, so be ready.>>>

 

-You've already called for all of them to die. I also did not "deify" anyone. I was just pointing out the fact that the people of the Arab world are flesh-and-blood human beings just like you and me, and that they have the same human complexities just like you and me. Wake up, Doc. Your fear may be rational considering what has happened, but your blood-lust is beyond all bounds, and any sane person can see that......

[Guest undisputedjericho]

 

I'll never forget that day.

[Guest RickyB]

Whoa, full stop. Islam doesn't preach simple respect and brotherhood. The entire religion is all about intolerance, hatred, misery, and death. I use "radical Islam" to denote the bent that has come to political power, used that despicable religion to shape a country, and become terrorists. All the messages of hate are right there in the Koran, Chris.

 

That is probably the most narrow minded statement that has been made in this topic, and that's saying a lot.

 

In case you didn't know, the Islam religion is against Terrorism, as it is a non-violent religioon. I've posted below something that shows this from islam-guide.com.

 

Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism.  In the Quran, God has said:

 

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes.  God loves just dealers."

 

The Prophet Muhammad  used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children,1 and he would advise them: {...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child.}2  And he also said: {Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.}3

 

Also, the Prophet Muhammad  has forbidden punishment with fire.4

 

He once listed murder as the second of the major sins,5 and he even warned that on the Day of Judgment, {The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.6}7

 

Muslims are even encouraged to be kind to animals and are forbidden to hurt them.  Once the Prophet Muhammad  said: {A woman was punished because she imprisoned a cat until it died.  On account of this, she was doomed to Hell. While she imprisoned it, she did not give the cat food or drink, nor did she free it to eat the insects of the earth.}8

 

He also said that a man gave a very thirsty dog a drink, so God forgave his sins for this action.  The Prophet  was asked, “Messenger of God, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?”  He said: {There is a reward for kindness to every living animal or human.}9

 

Additionally, while taking the life of an animal for food, Muslims are commanded to do so in a manner that causes the least amount of fright and suffering possible.  The Prophet Muhammad  said: {When you slaughter an animal, do so in the best way.  One should sharpen his knife to reduce the suffering of the animal.}10

 

In light of these and other Islamic texts, the act of inciting terror in the hearts of defenseless civilians, the wholesale destruction of buildings and properties, the bombing and maiming of innocent men, women, and children are all forbidden and detestable acts according to Islam and the Muslims.  Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy, and forgiveness, and the vast majority have nothing to do with the violent events some have associated with Muslims.  If an individual Muslim were to commit an act of terrorism, this person would be guilty of violating the laws of Islam.

 

So, since you have obviously never read the Quran you should not make statements like you have made about Muslim beliefs. In fact, you should read up about what Islam believes about the attacks on America at the following links:

 

http://www.thetruereligion.org/usattack.htm

 

http://www.thetruereligion.org/ashshaikh.htm

 

http://www.thetruereligion.org/lahidan.htm

 

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/20...article25.shtml

 

Those are all Islamic opinions on 9/11, they all condemn the attacks and declare them un-islamic. Those opinions are the same as the opinions of all Muslims that I know and probably the same as many Muslim people who America have killed in response to 9/11. In case you don't know, America have killed more innocent people than were killed in 9/11. And, while I agree that something had to be done in revenge to the terrorist attack, two wrongs do not make a right and killing innocent people is wrong no matter who does it.

 

(BTW - I am not a muslim myself, but I know a lot about the religion. and I know that you cannot find any examples in the Quran of Islam being about intolerance, hatred, misery, and death.)

[Guest Cancer Marney]

"Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out: persecution is severer than slaughter; but do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them. Such is the recompense of the unbelievers."

-2.191

 

"They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be all alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly their homes in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

- 4.89

 

"You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these we have given you a clear authority."

- 4.91

 

"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

- 5.51

 

"And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

- 9.30

 

Non-violent? Tell it to the wind, kid.

[Guest DrTom]

"Jesus Christ, Doc.....Let me get this straight. If another terrorist attack happens along the lines of 9/11 or worse, you advocate the mass murder of the entire Islamic world??"

 

Pretty much, yeah. If you have another viable solution that would prevent future terrorist attacks on America from the Islamic world, I'd really like to hear it (and I'm not saying that sarcastically).

 

"We need to concentrate on the ACTUAL TERRORISTS and their influence upon these people."

 

A lot of the terrorists run the governments or enjoy support from the governments. Among the people, among who they frequently hide, terrorists are often seen as heroes, the swords of Allah against the Great Satan of the west.

 

"What do you think a person in Egypt or Pakistan or Iran thinks when they read something like what you said."

 

Unless it motivates them to do something to prevent terrorism, I really don't give a shit. Did the Taliban take a poll in major US cities before they decided to fly airplanes into our buildings? "Oh my goodness gracious me, 100% of Americans are opposed to our very very nice plan to kill thousands of their people. I am not knowing what all of this is about. Let us do it anyway, Qahmed!"

 

"Would you like to show some of "these messages of hate"?"

 

Marney beat me to it.

 

"Does every single verse in the Koran call for all those who don't support Islam to die??"

 

Does every single verse preach peace and love? I can ask completely irrelevant questions, too.

 

"I suppose all the Muslims who live in and love America should be killed too right..."

 

There you go supposing again. Since the vast majority of Muslims in America have no connection to terrorism, I don't see why you're bringing this up, except as a sophomoric effort to score points with the liberal folks.

 

"you sound just like an Arab person who thinks every one in America lives in total sexual and material decadence."

 

And you sound just like a liberal who would rather see his country get its teeth kicked in because he's too much of a pussy to advocate a tough decision.

 

"I was just pointing out the fact that the people of the Arab world are flesh-and-blood human beings just like you and me, and that they have the same human complexities just like you and me."

 

Why can't we all just get along! Let's sing some campfire songs, roll a few fatties, and the world will be a happier place! Wake up, Chris. Take the flowers out of your hair and build me a dam for all your tears. We're at WAR. Innocent people die in wars. No one has to like it, but to cry about it and pretend it shouldn't happen is both immature and terribly ignorant of history.

 

I really don't know why we keep going down this road. I'm too bloodthirsty for you to possibly agree with me, and you're too peace-loving for me to possibly agree with you.

[Guest DrTom]

"In case you didn't know, the Islam religion is against Terrorism, as it is a non-violent religioon."

 

In case you didn't know, they've done a terrible job of showing it. If they're so against terrorism, maybe they should stop using it, supporting it, and funding it. Then I might be more sympathetic to your claims.

 

"I've posted below something that shows this from islam-guide.com."

 

Wow, a pro-Islamic site saying how peaceful the religion is. I'm totally surprised. Next, maybe you can post some links from catholicchurch.com and tell me the church is officially against priests buggering little boys.

 

"So, since you have obviously never read the Quran you should not make statements like you have made about Muslim beliefs."

 

Aren't we presumptive? The problem, Skippy, is that I HAVE read the Quran, so I know what it says. FWIW, I've also read the Bhagavad Gita, several Taoist books, and numerous Christian texts, in addition to taking a couple courses in world religions. Atheist though I be, world religions have interested me for a while, and I've tried to read something about the more important ones so that I can actually discuss them. Nice try, though.

 

"In fact, you should read up about what Islam believes about the attacks on America at the following links:"

 

Again, I'm totally surprised. You can read what I think about those reactions at the following link: www.idontgiveashit.com

 

Since Marney beat me (as I expected her to, actually) to posting some of the more unsavory passages from the Quran, perhaps you'd like to tell us how these wonderful Muslim groups you so happily quote feel about those passages?

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

<<<"Jesus Christ, Doc.....Let me get this straight. If another terrorist attack happens along the lines of 9/11 or worse, you advocate the mass murder of the entire Islamic world??"

 

Pretty much, yeah. If you have another viable solution that would prevent future terrorist attacks on America from the Islamic world, I'd really like to hear it (and I'm not saying that sarcastically).>>>

 

-I think what we're doing right now, outside of such things as the Patriot Act which threaten our civil liberties beyond all reasonable bounds, is about as realistic solution in our current historical time and space as we're gonna find. We're going after the terrorist network, not innocent people, no matter what their beliefs. They may support this network, but get rid of the network, show them the benefits of our democracy, and maybe, just maybe, we can all hold hands and walk on the beach. Rather naive, but I'd rather hope than just blindly resort to mass genocide, which is what you are supporting in this thread no matter what you think. They can believe and support whoever they want. As long as they don't hijack a plane or blow themselves up in a crowded place or drop smallpox in the water supply, no one has any right to kill them simply for what they believe, no matter how wrong you find it. So fine, you wish death upon the entire Islamic world? What happens after we do that? What happens when the rest of the world turns on us as well? Do we kill them all as well?

 

 

<<<"We need to concentrate on the ACTUAL TERRORISTS and their influence upon these people."

 

A lot of the terrorists run the governments or enjoy support from the governments. Among the people, among who they frequently hide, terrorists are often seen as heroes, the swords of Allah against the Great Satan of the west.>>>

 

-Again, I'm not saying this isn't true, but I, and a lot of other people, refuse to make the Nazi-esque jump that they should all be slaughtered for their beliefs.

 

<<<"What do you think a person in Egypt or Pakistan or Iran thinks when they read something like what you said."

 

Unless it motivates them to do something to prevent terrorism, I really don't give a shit. Did the Taliban take a poll in major US cities before they decided to fly airplanes into our buildings? "Oh my goodness gracious me, 100% of Americans are opposed to our very very nice plan to kill thousands of their people. I am not knowing what all of this is about. Let us do it anyway, Qahmed!">>>

 

-You miss my point entirely. They read your opinions, and it gives them further ammunition to hate you and support those who will actively take steps to hurt you. Keep believing what you want, because you're only asking for more, and if you insist on what have insisted in this post, then you deserve anything that happens to you. Terrorism isn't going to stop through the kind of blind hatred you have. We need an efficent, calculated response to destroy those who use terrorism in an active manner, and we must use the wisdom of freedom that this country truly stands for to help those who support terrorism to show them the error of their ways. I don't give a flying fudge if that sounds naive....

 

 

<<<"Does every single verse in the Koran call for all those who don't support Islam to die??"

 

Does every single verse preach peace and love? I can ask completely irrelevant questions, too.>>>

 

-Ok, so we've seen examples of both kinds of verses in this thread. We can walk down the street and see a peaceful Muslim living, walking, and breathing in America, and we can turn on the tele and see people like Bin Laden twisting Islam for their own sick means. Islam, like all religions, has its ups and downs. You could do the same thing with the Bible, and maybe later on, when I'm not so lazy, I'll try to look up examples of Bible verses that preach love and verses that preach hate. Really, Doc, you are a smart guy, but to insist blindly that Islam is just some mad source of evil is beyond ignorant, and again, a statement and belief that only adds to the cycle of hatred and ignorance that terrorism feeds on.

 

<<<"you sound just like an Arab person who thinks every one in America lives in total sexual and material decadence."

 

And you sound just like a liberal who would rather see his country get its teeth kicked in because he's too much of a pussy to advocate a tough decision.>>>

 

-You know what? If the majority of America happened to agree with your line of thought in this thread, then yes, you all deserve to get your teeth kicked in and your asses thrown off the high-horse you are sitting on. Oops, I guess this means the only right I have is the right to die now....

 

<<<We're at WAR. Innocent people die in wars. No one has to like it, but to cry about it and pretend it shouldn't happen is both immature and terribly ignorant of history.>>>

 

-NO SHIT!!!! These "innocent people" you mention. Are they the same "innocent people" you believe should be slaughtered? War is one thing. Genocide is another...

 

<<<I really don't know why we keep going down this road. I'm too bloodthirsty for you to possibly agree with me, and you're too peace-loving for me to possibly agree with you.>>>

 

-True. You and Marney would make great third-world dictators, and I would make a great prisoner, bound-and-gagged, ass-raped, fed shit, and then brought before the firing range just because I happen to not think exactly like you.....

[Guest DrTom]

"I think what we're doing right now, outside of such things as the Patriot Act which threaten our civil liberties beyond all reasonable bounds, is about as realistic solution in our current historical time and space as we're gonna find."

 

To the situation as it stands now, yes. I'm not saying we should obliterate the Middle East tomorrow. But if there is another significant terrorist attack against us, then we should consider all available options to prevent that from happening again, which includes turning the offending countries into radioactive glass.

 

"They may support this network, but get rid of the network, show them the benefits of our democracy, and maybe, just maybe, we can all hold hands and walk on the beach. Rather naive..."

 

Rather?

 

"... no one has any right to kill them simply for what they believe, no matter how wrong you find it."

 

I'm not saying we should kill them for what they believe. What I've been saying is we should kill them if they perpetrate another large terrorist attack against us. I don't care if they worship Allah, Buddha, or a head of lettuce: if they willfully kill thousands of our citizens, then it's time to take them out. Peace thru superior firepower.

 

"I, and a lot of other people, refuse to make the Nazi-esque jump that they should all be slaughtered for their beliefs."

 

Hello, 1954 called and it wants its trite, cookie-cutter insult back.

 

"They read your opinions, and it gives them further ammunition to hate you and support those who will actively take steps to hurt you."

 

I'm sure their decision whether or not to attack America again will not be made on the basis of some angry internet postings. "Oh my goodness gracious me, I have come to like America very very much, but damnit, they are just ragging on us too much online!" This isn't like Jay and Silent Bob getting revenge on the nerds from Movie Poop Shoot. They don't NEED any more ammunition; they already hate us and think us the Great Satan, and there's nothing you and I can say that will change that.

 

"Terrorism isn't going to stop through the kind of blind hatred you have."

 

Give me a few nukes and we'll see.

 

"We need an efficent, calculated response to destroy those who use terrorism in an active manner..."

 

That happens to be precisely what I suggested.

 

"I don't give a flying fudge if that sounds naive...."

 

It's a good thing.

 

"... but to insist blindly that Islam is just some mad source of evil is beyond ignorant..."

 

Look at the Middle East. List the good things countries over there have done in the past year. If you have a meaningful list, be sure to share it with the class.

 

"If the majority of America happened to agree with your line of thought in this thread, then yes, you all deserve to get your teeth kicked in and your asses thrown off the high-horse you are sitting on."

 

If the majority of America agreed with me, there'd be no one over there to kick our teeth in. I'm judging them on their actions, Chris, not their religious beliefs, despite what you may have your knickers in a twist about.

 

"You and Marney would make great third-world dictators... "

 

I think we'd both rather be first-world dictators.

 

"... I would make a great prisoner, bound-and-gagged, ass-raped, fed shit, and then brought before the firing range..."

 

I wouldn't feed you shit, Chris. I could put it to much better use as fertilizer.

[Guest EricMM]

But what would the rest of the world like China, Russia, even most of Europe do if we decided to nuke the middle east?

 

Not to mention the American Arabs who would definitely protest.

 

Can't you tell your reaction is overboard and there would be a massive backlash from all sides?

 

What do you say to that?

 

And this is not even considering the immoralness and evilness of DrTom's RadioActive Glass solution. So don't quote this respond to my origional question, please.

[Guest DrTom]

" But what would the rest of the world like China, Russia, even most of Europe do if we decided to nuke the middle east?"

 

It depends. It depends on the nature of a future attack against us, as well as the severity of our response. Losing a few dozen people isn't cause to arm the warheads, but losing several thousand -- particularly if the next attack is biological or nuclear, both of which are possible -- would be. And we wouldn't have to obliterate all of the Middle East -- just the problem areas.

 

"Not to mention the American Arabs who would definitely protest."

 

And what precisely would they do about it?

 

"Can't you tell your reaction is overboard and there would be a massive backlash from all sides?"

 

Let's see the terrorists take out a city with an atomic bomb. Then let's see how many of you peaceniks are still willing to say how wonderful all the Arab people are, and that we should just sing some campfire songs and make it all better. I'm an angry American, and I'm not going to apologize for being one. If they attack us again, then they deserve whatever retribution we mete out.

 

"And this is not even considering the immoralness and evilness of DrTom's RadioActive Glass solution. So don't quote this respond to my origional question, please. "

 

I'll quote what I bloody well feel like quoting. I don't see how my solution is full of "immoralness" or "evilness," since we would be responding to an attack by ensuring that no more would be forthcoming. It's amazing how few people have a stomach for war these days. Bah, go put the flowers back in your hair and dance to the Byrds at Berkeley.

[Guest Midnight Express83]

FYI, Arabs aren't the only Terrorist in the world. The IRA is just as big and bad. Bush wants seek JUSTICE on TERRORIST. Not REVENGE on the arab world. Since not all people who hate America are Arabs.

 

Next problem: killing massive amounts of people isn't going to help. Take over the goverements of the groups that support these terrorist attacks. That is a better solution. Any of this other bullshit is just talking out of your ass.

 

Third: It isn't leftist or liberals that want common sense used to solve this. Its people who are trying to think with a clear head. NOT fucking bullshit like "nuke everyone". There WON"T be a major terroist attack like that because not only do they not have the means to carrying it out. Just saying one will happen puts this country on a frenzy and they do their job. They strike terror without having to do much. If you let them get to you like this, then they are winning. If you just live your normal life, they you don't have to worry about another major attack because one of the few good things Bush is doing is protecting us to live our normal life. So sit back and have a ham sandwich.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Amen, Midnight.....

 

 

Getting way off the topic, Doc, you mentioned you had read the Bhagavad-Gita. I too have read about half of it, and I've met a few genuine Hare Krishna people. About the most peaceful people you will find, and I do recommend the whole chanting business they employ if simply to relieve stress. As for their religion, my problem with it is that, for better or for worse, it is nothing but a typical religion, offering one answer and one answer only, and people insisting on one broad answer to everyone's existence is one of the reasons the world is so screwed up in the first place IMO. The message of the Gita is that you either worship Krishna, or you are stuck in " hopeless misery of material existence". Listen, I get far more of this material existance, which I can hear, feel, taste, touch, rather than surrendering myself, and all my hopes and dreams to some abstract, metaphysical concept. In any case, I could be incredibly wrong and I'll join the rest of ya non-believers in perishing in hell-fire and brimstone. Rather be a happy heathen with all possibilities at my foot-step than blissed-out, oblivious to everyday life. Sorry for rambling. Your thoughts, Doc......