MLB Off-season Thread

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

The O's claimed Greg Aquino off waivers from the brewers.

 

might be better move to improve the bullpen than giving Baez $6 million a year like they did last year.

 

How about getting someone who can hit too? Then they might win 70 games next year.

 

 

I think Luke Scott could hit 20 HR and around .280 avg/.340 OBP for the Orioles in 08 which would be way more than Jay Payton's 7 HR and .256 avg/.292 OBP as the primary starter in LF last year.

 

That's fine. What about center field, and keeping in mind that they'd still like to trade Brian Roberts, Ramon Hernandez, and Melvin Mora?

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

The O's claimed Greg Aquino off waivers from the brewers.

 

might be better move to improve the bullpen than giving Baez $6 million a year like they did last year.

 

How about getting someone who can hit too? Then they might win 70 games next year.

 

 

I think Luke Scott could hit 20 HR and around .280 avg/.340 OBP for the Orioles in 08 which would be way more than Jay Payton's 7 HR and .256 avg/.292 OBP as the primary starter in LF last year.

 

That's fine. What about center field, and keeping in mind that they'd still like to trade Brian Roberts, Ramon Hernandez, and Melvin Mora?

 

I doubt they trade Roberts, Hernandez can hit if he stays healthy (which he couldnt in 07) and Mora..ugh.

[The Man in Blak 0]

The Cardinals traded Jim Edmonds to the San Diego Padres for 3B David Freese. For the Cardinals it probably gives Colby Rasmus a clear shot at the CF job in St. Louis.

 

So that probably also means Rolen more than likely is going to get traded.

 

John Mozeliak (the new GM) has already said that he does not see any other big trades on the horizon, so Rolen is likely staying put. He's also indicated that Rick Ankiel will likely be the projected starter at CF for St. Louis, which gives us an outfield of Duncan-Ankiel-Ludwick, with Schumaker and new Rule 5-er Brian Barton as depth.

 

All in all, I think it's a really lousy trade in every possible way. The return that they got for Edmonds is essentially useless (local kid that doesn't really project beyond "organizational soldier") and the "salary relief" excuse rings very hollow when we're in a brand new stadium, playing baseball in a league that's apparently making billions upon billions of dollars. I'm trying to realize that this move may precede another move or signing, but the prospects out there for trade or free agency don't really seem to fit the Cardinals needs well at all - it seems more likely that DeWitt and the Cardinals ownership pockets the $8 million from the Edmonds and signs some non-tender castoff like Kevin Mench or Emil Brown to push us to 75 wins and contention for the divisional title. Viva La NL Central, I guess.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

All in all, I think it's a really lousy trade in every possible way. The return that they got for Edmonds is essentially useless (local kid that doesn't really project beyond "organizational soldier") and the "salary relief" excuse rings very hollow when we're in a brand new stadium, playing baseball in a league that's apparently making billions upon billions of dollars. I'm trying to realize that this move may precede another move or signing, but the prospects out there for trade or free agency don't really seem to fit the Cardinals needs well at all - it seems more likely that DeWitt and the Cardinals ownership pockets the $8 million from the Edmonds and signs some non-tender castoff like Kevin Mench or Emil Brown to push us to 75 wins and contention for the divisional title. Viva La NL Central, I guess.

 

The return for Edmonds should tell you something in itself. A 37 year old center fielder who produced an 88 OPS+ last year and misses 45-50 games a year. He's Jim Edmonds in name only.

 

Is Edmonds a HOFer?

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

Jim Edmonds gets downgraded for intentionally misplaying flies to center so he can dive around like a histrionic doofus. Also,

[Bored 0]

Is Edmonds a HOFer?

I don't think he'll get in. Probably be a 15 year ballot guy but his career numbers aren't overwhelming due to all his injuries and that'll keep him out. If I had a vote I would lean slightly towards "yes" as him being a HOF due to an excellent peak and playing phenomenal defense at a very important defensive position, even if there is some credence to what Czech said.

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

I'm keeping him out more for the half-shirt than the outfield gimmickry, actually.

[Slayer 0]

I mostly just remember Edmonds as the guy whom analysts said "The Angels will be sorry they traded this guy!" and then they won the WS a couple years later

[The Man in Blak 0]

All in all, I think it's a really lousy trade in every possible way. The return that they got for Edmonds is essentially useless (local kid that doesn't really project beyond "organizational soldier") and the "salary relief" excuse rings very hollow when we're in a brand new stadium, playing baseball in a league that's apparently making billions upon billions of dollars. I'm trying to realize that this move may precede another move or signing, but the prospects out there for trade or free agency don't really seem to fit the Cardinals needs well at all - it seems more likely that DeWitt and the Cardinals ownership pockets the $8 million from the Edmonds and signs some non-tender castoff like Kevin Mench or Emil Brown to push us to 75 wins and contention for the divisional title. Viva La NL Central, I guess.

 

The return for Edmonds should tell you something in itself. A 37 year old center fielder who produced an 88 OPS+ last year and misses 45-50 games a year. He's Jim Edmonds in name only.

 

Is Edmonds a HOFer?

 

Just because the Cardinals chose to sell Edmonds at his lowest possible value doesn't mean that there isn't any value to be had at all. ZIPS has him projected to be above average at CF and he hit well enough during the last two months of last season that the projection doesn't seem all that unrealistic. His durability is always a concern, sure, but his trips to the DL give the Cardinals ample opportunity to ease in their young outfielders (Ankiel, Rasmus, Barton), rather than throwing them into a baptism by fire immediately. If Brian Barton plays like a Rule 5 steal and Rick Ankiel doesn't regress and Ryan Ludwick doesn't regress and Colby Rasmus continues to develop and Skip Schumaker doesn't have a ball hit his head out in the outfield again...then maybe the Cardinals are in decent shape. But it's a risk that they don't have to take.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I don't think Edmonds at even that projection (.247/.344/.440) is going to make a significant difference. Obviously he was not worth the $9 million the Cardinals would have paid him next season. The Cards are better off improving other areas of their team rather than sticking with a declining star.

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

I bet a few of the red-faced dopes of Cardinal Nation are treating this like a death in their family. Be on the lookout for "we'll miss you Jimmy Baseball" mylar balloons and St. Louis Cardinals-themed teddy bears placed outside Busch Stadium.

[The Man in Blak 0]

I don't think Edmonds at even that projection (.247/.344/.440) is going to make a significant difference. Obviously he was not worth the $9 million the Cardinals would have paid him next season. The Cards are better off improving other areas of their team rather than sticking with a declining star.

 

Yes, when his performance is completely isolated against his contract, I would not dispute that Edmonds is not worth the $8-9 million that he would be paid. My argument, however, revolves around how that money would be used to improve the team. For better or worse, the Izturis signing has essentially locked up the Cardinal infield, which leaves the starting rotation and (now) the outfield as immediate concerns.

 

As far as starting pitching is concerned, there's no desired value available out there on the FA market that wasn't already available before the Edmonds deal: the team can't afford (from a roster standpoint) to sink a ton of money into a mediocrity-at-best like Carlos Silva, and they don't have the prospects to get any sort of long term value out of a trade, so the best fits are the bargain bin residents like a Mark Prior or a Jeff Weaver (again), who would have came cheaply to begin with.

 

The same situation applies in the outfield - there's no magical top-shelf corner outfielder out there on the market that the Cardinals would be able to snag, so the team's course is probably set towards non-tender flotsam like Kevin Mench that could have been acquired even with Edmonds' hefty contract on the books for 2008.

 

If you hold onto Edmonds and he gets injured, you put him on the DL and you get your young outfielders some playing time anyway. If he stinks up the joint, what's keeping the Cardinals from making this deal again during the season? Or, even better, if he actually manages to come back and provide decent performance, what's keeping them from flipping Edmonds in June and actually getting something of worth back for him?

 

If the Cards somehow spin this new "flexibility" provided by the Edmonds trade into an actual player of value, then the trade becomes bitter, but ultimately necessary medicine. But the likelihood of extracting long-term value from the current situation seems low to me, which makes the trade seem ultimately pointless and perhaps even destructive, if you consider the PR impact of trading away one of the favorite players of the "red-faced dopes of Cardinal Nation" for virtually nothing.

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

I don't think you're a dope, Man in Blak, but you have to acknowledge a certain unique subset of St. Louis Cardinals fans, the same way I'll concede that lots of Cubs fans are collar-popping douchebags with drunken sorority whores who ask why Sammy isn't in right.

 

Good explanation of why the Edmonds trade is so awful, too.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

lots of Cubs fans are collar-popping douchebags

 

Oh my god. I thought I was the only one who noticed this.

 

[The Man in Blak 0]

Well, yeah. There's a certain subset of fans like that for any sports team or any other particular group of fandom. The fact that you dressed 'em up through irrational Cardinals hatred is momentarily entertaining, sure, but ultimately kind of pointless, isn't it? Maybe not. Shrugs.

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

I don't hate the Cardinals, really. I don't know how we as Cubs fans have come to associate popsicle-stick-cross sentimentality with the Cardinals, but there it is.

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

lots of Cubs fans are collar-popping douchebags

 

Oh my god. I thought I was the only one who noticed this.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

CUBBIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[tominator89 0]

The Phillies also are considering free-agent righthander Sidney Ponson, who might sign a minor-league contract. That's because Ponson hasn't been in the majors since May 12 last season after the Twins released him. Ponson is 0-1 with a 2.25 ERA in two starts in the Dominican winter league.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/philli...in_Cameron.html

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I get the feeling I better frequent the local buffets soon before Ponson comes to Allentown and clears them out.

 

Lots of fans in general are douchebags. Even Phillies fans. Hell, particularly Phillies fans.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

I hate Phillies and Eagles games because of the fans.

 

I used to go to maybe one Phillies game per year, and it was a highly unenjoyable experience with everybody around me absolutely miserable, angry, and at least slightly drunk for virtually the entire game (they would cheer up if the Phillies were going to win late in the game, but if the Phillies were losing they were miserable for nine innings). I have to believe that it is not like this at every baseball stadium in America. Please, somebody confirm this for me.

 

I would go to more Flyers games though, as there were not many fights or miserable people there. But this was before the strike, back when I still followed the sport religiously. I haven't been back since they made the game more "open" and (in my opinion) ruined a lot of what I thought was great and exciting about it.

 

I'd love to live somewhere that the local teams had fans who weren't belligerent, angry drunks who challenge you to a fight just for being there at the same time they are.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Honestly I have a good experience at Phillies games.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

Honestly I have a good experience at Phillies games.

 

Maybe you have a more similar personality to those people then and can still enjoy yourself. Or maybe you are better at tuning people out.

 

I find it to be an unpleasant experience. The people around me ruin it for me because they are miserable, angry, and profane.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Honestly I have a good experience at Phillies games.

 

Maybe you have a more similar personality to those people then and can still enjoy yourself. Or maybe you are better at tuning people out.

 

I find it to be an unpleasant experience. The people around me ruin it for me because they are miserable, angry, and profane.

I can't vouch because I don't know your general attitude sitting at games. I do find that less-crowded games are more enjoyable. Try going mid-week and spring the $35 for lower deck.

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

I'd love to live somewhere that the local teams had fans who weren't belligerent, angry drunks who challenge you to a fight just for being there at the same time they are.

I think the midwest's teams have friendly and welcoming fans, by and large. It's not like Cubs fans hate Cardinals fans at all, really: it's much more of a friendly rivalry than that thing whipped up by the Connecticut-based marketing outlet. For all the ragging that Cubs fans give Cardinals fans for being (at least perceived by us as) whatever it is they are with their color-coordination and cloyingly unwavering support, I feel like I could go down to Busch Stadium in a Cubs hat and not worry about a beer bottle knocking it off my head. Coughcoughbridgeport. From talking about or reading about people's experiences at batting practice, the only Cardinal that anyone here really actively disliked was Jim Edmonds. The Brewers I fans know are really good people, though there are others try to make the rivalry more than it is and get really butthurt about the whole Wrigley North thing. I'd like the Brewers if their success didn't affect my team's success.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

Honestly I have a good experience at Phillies games.

 

Maybe you have a more similar personality to those people then and can still enjoy yourself. Or maybe you are better at tuning people out.

 

I find it to be an unpleasant experience. The people around me ruin it for me because they are miserable, angry, and profane.

I can't vouch because I don't know your general attitude sitting at games. I do find that less-crowded games are more enjoyable. Try going mid-week and spring the $35 for lower deck.

 

I like to watch the game, and I like a family-friendly atmosphere. I don't want kids to be getting inundated with profanity and drunken conduct from adults. I don't like that they see that as normal. Everyone laughs about the little kid with the Red Sox gear giving the finger, but it's really not that funny.

 

I don't want people spilling beer on people on purpose. I don't want people punching and shoving people for wearing another team's merchandise. I come to watch two teams play baseball, not to fight people who root for another team or to get so drunk I don't remember the game.

 

That's my attitude towards sitting at games. I guess I'm old fashioned, like one of those guys in the black and white photos from when Babe Ruth played who went to the game in a three-piece suit and a top hat. Haha.

 

I like exhibition games for this reason. The past couple years I've sat about 15 rows behind the dugout on the last exhibition game of the year or Opening Day, depending. The last exhibition game is always a lot more pleasurable. I would never, ever go to a playoff game at Citizens Bank Park. No game where people have heightened tensions at all. I couldn't handle that much drunken belligerence all around me. I'm not a pussy but I don't see why I have to get into a fight in order to watch a baseball game I paid for seats to see.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

I'd love to live somewhere that the local teams had fans who weren't belligerent, angry drunks who challenge you to a fight just for being there at the same time they are.

I think the midwest's teams have friendly and welcoming fans, by and large. It's not like Cubs fans hate Cardinals fans at all, really: it's much more of a friendly rivalry than that thing whipped up by the Connecticut-based marketing outlet. For all the ragging that Cubs fans give Cardinals fans for being (at least perceived by us as) whatever it is they are with their color-coordination and cloyingly unwavering support, I feel like I could go down to Busch Stadium in a Cubs hat and not worry about a beer bottle knocking it off my head. Coughcoughbridgeport. From talking about or reading about people's experiences at batting practice, the only Cardinal that anyone here really actively disliked was Jim Edmonds. The Brewers I fans know are really good people, though there are others try to make the rivalry more than it is and get really butthurt about the whole Wrigley North thing. I'd like the Brewers if their success didn't affect my team's success.

 

I wonder if fans out West, like Giants, Mariners, Dodgers, Angels, maybe even Athletics are more relaxed and laid back?

[Brett Favre 0]

Golden State Warrior fans are pretty good. So maybe there's something to that.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I like exhibition games for this reason. The past couple years I've sat about 15 rows behind the dugout on the last exhibition game of the year or Opening Day, depending. The last exhibition game is always a lot more pleasurable. I would never, ever go to a playoff game at Citizens Bank Park. No game where people have heightened tensions at all. I couldn't handle that much drunken belligerence all around me. I'm not a pussy but I don't see why I have to get into a fight in order to watch a baseball game I paid for seats to see.

 

Do you ever go to minor league games? That sounds right up your alley, and cheaper as well. If you haven't been to Baseballtown in Reading, GO!

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

I like exhibition games for this reason. The past couple years I've sat about 15 rows behind the dugout on the last exhibition game of the year or Opening Day, depending. The last exhibition game is always a lot more pleasurable. I would never, ever go to a playoff game at Citizens Bank Park. No game where people have heightened tensions at all. I couldn't handle that much drunken belligerence all around me. I'm not a pussy but I don't see why I have to get into a fight in order to watch a baseball game I paid for seats to see.

 

Do you ever go to minor league games? That sounds right up your alley, and cheaper as well. If you haven't been to Baseballtown in Reading, GO!

 

I've never been to one but they do appeal to me for these reasons, which is why prior to my putting the Sharks' thing in my avatar I was rotating through various bizarre minor league teams. I'll have to check it out sometime.

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

I'd love to live somewhere that the local teams had fans who weren't belligerent, angry drunks who challenge you to a fight just for being there at the same time they are.

I think the midwest's teams have friendly and welcoming fans, by and large. It's not like Cubs fans hate Cardinals fans at all, really: it's much more of a friendly rivalry than that thing whipped up by the Connecticut-based marketing outlet. For all the ragging that Cubs fans give Cardinals fans for being (at least perceived by us as) whatever it is they are with their color-coordination and cloyingly unwavering support, I feel like I could go down to Busch Stadium in a Cubs hat and not worry about a beer bottle knocking it off my head. Coughcoughbridgeport. From talking about or reading about people's experiences at batting practice, the only Cardinal that anyone here really actively disliked was Jim Edmonds. The Brewers I fans know are really good people, though there are others try to make the rivalry more than it is and get really butthurt about the whole Wrigley North thing. I'd like the Brewers if their success didn't affect my team's success.

 

I wonder if fans out West, like Giants, Mariners, Dodgers, Angels, maybe even Athletics are more relaxed and laid back?

I think Leo said Dodger Stadium gets interesting now and then. I'm sure the other places are pretty relaxed. I could probably safely watch a game among S.F. Giants fans, but I'd never want to.