Approaching the 10th anniversary of the...

[Diamonddust 0]

Eric Bischoff even said he understood why Vince McMahon did it. I think after the whole Madusa incident, Vince wasn't going to fuck around and trust anyone. Vince was in the dark about everything that was going on with Bret and Bischoff. Vince was put in a very bad situation. He was dealing with 2 wrestlers with some of the biggest egos in the wrestling business, and a possible bad situation involving WCW trashing another WWF title on air.

 

Although it was said Bischoff at that point wasn't allowed to do anything of the sort because Turner was afraid of lawsuits, Vince didn't know it.

Just to clear up any misunderstanding about this part, Vince knew the WWF title belt couldn't get the garbage bin treatment. He had to make a story up for an unhappy locker room the next day, so he went with the idea that he couldn't risk the WWF title belt being thrown in the trash. It was never going to happen and couldn't happen anyway, which he was fully aware of.

 

Just curious... was that going to stop Bischoff from simply announcing they had signed the reigning WWF Champion at the time, especially if Hart was going to stay until December?

[Boxer 0]

Scorecard of the last 10 years:

 

Vince McMahon:

 

Became a heel

Attitude Era

Went Public

Made a lot of money

Bought WCW

Lost the WWF name

Wrestlers dying early

Eddie's death

Chris Benoit Saga

 

Shawn Michaels:

 

Suffered career ending back injury

Retired in 1998

Came back in 2002

Born again in 2002

Won World Heavyweight Title in 2002

Became a full timer wrestler again

Now a part time wrestler but still going 10 years later

 

HHH:

Slowly took over DX

Became a world champion in 1999

Dated Steph in 2000

The world titles piled up from 2002-2005

Married Steph in 2003

Will forever be WWE 4 life

 

Bret Hart:

Went to WCW with that nice contract

Did absolutely nothing, horrible booking

Owen Hart dies

Wins WCW title finally

Goldberg kicks him in the head ending his career

Stroke in 2002

Recovers, writes a book, enters WWE Hall of Fame

 

Brisco:

Became a WWE stooge during the Attitude Era

Generally known to everyone as a McMahon ass-kisser

 

Earl Hebner:

Endured the you screwed Bret chant for years

Often involved in similar re-enactment of the Screwjob

Lead ref who was a face to most

Profile increased after Montreal

Generally had employment for life with WWE for Montreal

FIRED in 2005 for seling merchandise

 

Is there anyone else who was involved?

 

In my opinion Triple H came out of Montreal looking the best albeit WAY WAY down the road.

[Diamonddust 0]

Scorecard of the last 10 years:

 

Vince McMahon:

 

Became a heel

Attitude Era

Went Public

Made a lot of money

Bought WCW

Lost the WWF name

Wrestlers dying early

Eddie's death

Chris Benoit Saga

 

Shawn Michaels:

 

Suffered career ending back injury

Retired in 1998

Came back in 2002

Born again in 2002

Won World Heavyweight Title in 2002

Became a full timer wrestler again

Now a part time wrestler but still going 10 years later

 

HHH:

Slowly took over DX

Became a world champion in 1999

Dated Steph in 2000

The world titles piled up from 2002-2005

Married Steph in 2003

Will forever be WWE 4 life

 

Bret Hart:

Went to WCW with that nice contract

Did absolutely nothing, horrible booking

Owen Hart dies

Wins WCW title finally

Goldberg kicks him in the head ending his career

Stroke in 2002

Recovers, writes a book, enters WWE Hall of Fame

 

Brisco:

Became a WWE stooge during the Attitude Era

Generally known to everyone as a McMahon ass-kisser

 

Earl Hebner:

Endured the you screwed Bret chant for years

Often involved in similar re-enactment of the Screwjob

Lead ref who was a face to most

Profile increased after Montreal

Generally had employment for life with WWE for Montreal

FIRED in 2005 for seling merchandise

 

Is there anyone else who was involved?

 

In my opinion Triple H came out of Montreal looking the best albeit WAY WAY down the road.

 

Those are the only ones we know were involved. There has always been rumors that people were involved on both sides (Setting up the screwjob and warning Bret), but their identity hasn't been revealed.

 

I believe Meltzer has always said a key player has never been named, and he won't be named until he dies, which makes me believe he's kind of up there in age.

[Boxer 0]

Scorecard of the last 10 years:

 

Vince McMahon:

 

Became a heel

Attitude Era

Went Public

Made a lot of money

Bought WCW

Lost the WWF name

Wrestlers dying early

Eddie's death

Chris Benoit Saga

 

Shawn Michaels:

 

Suffered career ending back injury

Retired in 1998

Came back in 2002

Born again in 2002

Won World Heavyweight Title in 2002

Became a full timer wrestler again

Now a part time wrestler but still going 10 years later

 

HHH:

Slowly took over DX

Became a world champion in 1999

Dated Steph in 2000

The world titles piled up from 2002-2005

Married Steph in 2003

Will forever be WWE 4 life

 

Bret Hart:

Went to WCW with that nice contract

Did absolutely nothing, horrible booking

Owen Hart dies

Wins WCW title finally

Goldberg kicks him in the head ending his career

Stroke in 2002

Recovers, writes a book, enters WWE Hall of Fame

 

Brisco:

Became a WWE stooge during the Attitude Era

Generally known to everyone as a McMahon ass-kisser

 

Earl Hebner:

Endured the you screwed Bret chant for years

Often involved in similar re-enactment of the Screwjob

Lead ref who was a face to most

Profile increased after Montreal

Generally had employment for life with WWE for Montreal

FIRED in 2005 for seling merchandise

 

Is there anyone else who was involved?

 

In my opinion Triple H came out of Montreal looking the best albeit WAY WAY down the road.

 

Those are the only ones we know were involved. There has always been rumors that people were involved on both sides (Setting up the screwjob and warning Bret), but their identity hasn't been revealed.

 

I believe Meltzer has always said a key player has never been named, and he won't be named until he dies, which makes me believe he's kind of up there in age.

 

All of the guys in the locker room at the time, I have this feeling that Undertaker must have known SOMETHING then. Just because of the stature he had with the company, he must have either known or seen something coming.

[Diamonddust 0]

All of the guys in the locker room at the time, I have this feeling that Undertaker must have known SOMETHING then. Just because of the stature he had with the company, he must have either known or seen something coming.

 

It's been said before, but there were people telling Bret to watch himself in the ring. Vader, in particular due to his work in Japan, was the one who told him to kick out at a one count and don't let himself get caught in any submission moves.

[pochorenella 0]

It seems it's up to me to somewhat act the part of Shawn's attorney on this case. I might sound like a Michaels apologist but whatever.

 

I don't believe HBK wouldnt Job to ANYONE....

Look at HBK's track record.

 

He even refused to job to Austin at WM14, before Taker stepped in days before the show and threatened to beats the lights out of him.

Having read Shawn's book, he states that this is completely false, including the "Taker taping his fists" thing. Wether people choose to believe Meltzer or whomever stated this as fact or Michaels is up to them. I heard there was an interview where Taker said he did warn Shawn but I don't know. Guess we'll have to wait for Taker's autobiography or something to clear this up once and for all. This thing could turn out to be one of those rumours that people believe to be fact because it's been told so many times, like Bret winning the WWF Title at Final 4 was an on-the-fly decision.

 

I don't believe HBK wouldnt Job to ANYONE....

Go look up the match results yourself. Between his WWF title loss to Sid at Survivor Series 96 and his semi-retirement match with Austin at Wrestlemania 14, Shawn DIDN'T job to anyone. For seventeen months he didn't get pinned one single time, no matter whether he was babyface or heel, champ or not. (And no, HHH's Euro title "win" doesn't count.) Meanwhile, Bret was jobbing to guys like The Patriot.

He jobbed a few times on house shows. I know there was at least one time in late '96/early '97 when he got pinned by Austin, then Hart pinned him in a dark match at the MSG Raw that year (it was a 3-way with Taker), then I believe Taker pinned him in a six-man at MSG about a week after the screwjob. And, um, that's all I can think of. But none of those were on TV, so your point stands.

Between his match with Sid at the 1997 Rumble and the RAW taping where he won the Tag Titles with Austin and then defended against LOD was a four month or so gap where he didn't wrestle, which was the time when he "lost his smile" or whatever people like to call it here. Then came King of The Ring vs Austin and maybe something else, his backstage problem with Bret where he left again, until September for Ground Zero vs Taker. That's another gap. My point is just saying that you shouldn't call it a seventeen month gap because it's non-continuous, if that makes sense.

[CBright7831 0]

Scorecard of the last 10 years:

 

Vince McMahon:

 

Became a heel

Attitude Era

Went Public

Made a lot of money

Bought WCW

Lost the WWF name

Wrestlers dying early

Eddie's death

Chris Benoit Saga

 

Shawn Michaels:

 

Suffered career ending back injury

Retired in 1998

Came back in 2002

Born again in 2002

Won World Heavyweight Title in 2002

Became a full timer wrestler again

Now a part time wrestler but still going 10 years later

 

HHH:

Slowly took over DX

Became a world champion in 1999

Dated Steph in 2000

The world titles piled up from 2002-2005

Married Steph in 2003

Will forever be WWE 4 life

 

Bret Hart:

Went to WCW with that nice contract

Did absolutely nothing, horrible booking

Owen Hart dies

Wins WCW title finally

Goldberg kicks him in the head ending his career

Stroke in 2002

Recovers, writes a book, enters WWE Hall of Fame

 

Brisco:

Became a WWE stooge during the Attitude Era

Generally known to everyone as a McMahon ass-kisser

 

Earl Hebner:

Endured the you screwed Bret chant for years

Often involved in similar re-enactment of the Screwjob

Lead ref who was a face to most

Profile increased after Montreal

Generally had employment for life with WWE for Montreal

FIRED in 2005 for seling merchandise

 

Is there anyone else who was involved?

 

In my opinion Triple H came out of Montreal looking the best albeit WAY WAY down the road.

 

Those are the only ones we know were involved. There has always been rumors that people were involved on both sides (Setting up the screwjob and warning Bret), but their identity hasn't been revealed.

 

I believe Meltzer has always said a key player has never been named, and he won't be named until he dies, which makes me believe he's kind of up there in age.

 

All of the guys in the locker room at the time, I have this feeling that Undertaker must have known SOMETHING then. Just because of the stature he had with the company, he must have either known or seen something coming.

Undertaker was pissed off at Vince for the whole thing, and even forced Vince to go talk to Bret - and we all know how that ended.

 

[Guest the_last_rites]

Having read Shawn's book, he states that this is completely false, including the "Taker taping his fists" thing. Wether people choose to believe Meltzer or whomever stated this as fact or Michaels is up to them. I heard there was an interview where Taker said he did warn Shawn but I don't know. Guess we'll have to wait for Taker's autobiography or something to clear this up once and for all. This thing could turn out to be one of those rumours that people believe to be fact because it's been told so many times, like Bret winning the WWF Title at Final 4 was an on-the-fly decision.

 

Yes there is . He doesnt hand pick that incident but he does mention that he has had to discipline HBK. In that interview he also goes ahead to say that Big Show was someone who had incredible talent but lets it all go to waste because of his holier than thou attitude. I could be wrong but I think it was OTR with Landsberg. I'd rather believe someone like Taker here

[cabbageboy 0]

Holier than thou attitude? Wonder what that means?

 

Here is what I don't get about the screwjob. Why didn't Bret listen to any of these guys like Vader or UT to be on the lookout? I actually agree with HHH's comments saying "We wouldn't have been that stupid." The goofiest thing you can do if you're worried about being screwed is to be put in a submission hold where the ref can call for the bell.

[Diamonddust 0]

Holier than thou attitude? Wonder what that means?

 

Here is what I don't get about the screwjob. Why didn't Bret listen to any of these guys like Vader or UT to be on the lookout? I actually agree with HHH's comments saying "We wouldn't have been that stupid." The goofiest thing you can do if you're worried about being screwed is to be put in a submission hold where the ref can call for the bell.

 

Because he trusted Hebner wasn't going to do something like that to him.

[CBright7831 0]

My favorite part of HBK's book was when he said he saw Vince fly to the ground and he got out of there. Once out, they went back to the hotel room, and HHH got punched in the face.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Having read Shawn's book, he states that this is completely false, including the "Taker taping his fists" thing. Wether people choose to believe Meltzer or whomever stated this as fact or Michaels is up to them. I heard there was an interview where Taker said he did warn Shawn but I don't know. Guess we'll have to wait for Taker's autobiography or something to clear this up once and for all. This thing could turn out to be one of those rumours that people believe to be fact because it's been told so many times, like Bret winning the WWF Title at Final 4 was an on-the-fly decision.

 

Yes there is . He doesnt hand pick that incident but he does mention that he has had to discipline HBK. In that interview he also goes ahead to say that Big Show was someone who had incredible talent but lets it all go to waste because of his holier than thou attitude. I could be wrong but I think it was OTR with Landsberg. I'd rather believe someone like Taker here

It was OTR with Landsberg. Landsberg mentioned the incident with Undertaker warning Shawn over doing the job for Austin, and while Undertaker didn't outright say it was true, what he said made it very clear that it was.

 

And it's probably not a good idea to take Shawn's book at face value, because, among other things, he also claimed to have come up with the sharpshooter spot in the Montreal match, which wasn't true.

[Guest Floridian Cool]

Here's the bottom line about Montreal:

 

Vince is the boss. If he really wanted Bret to do the job to HBK, he should have put his foot down...not lied to Bret's face and agreed to a DQ ending (as was caught on tape in Wrestling With Shadows). That's just a bitch move. I could be very wrong but I don't think that Vince ever outright told or even asked Bret to do the job at Survivor Series...he just beat around the bush in their meetings ("What do YOU want to do?"), said okay to the DQ finish...then screwed him. I don't remember exactly how the recorded convo from Wrestling With Shadows went, but wasn't it like:

 

Vince: So how do you see this thing ending?

Bret: I see it being a big schmozz, blah, blah, blah. And then I could relinquish the title the next night on RAW.

Vince: Okay, that sounds good to me.

 

I did always wonder why Bret didn't suspect that something was up when Vince and like every agent in the company came out.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I could be very wrong but I don't think that Vince ever outright told, or even asked Bret to do the job at Survivor Series...

At least twice, Vince proposed an idea that involved Bret putting over Shawn at Survivor Series. Though the second one doesn't really count, because it was designed to get Bret to leave.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Bret Hart had a creative control clause in his contract and he wouldn't do the job to Shawn in Canada. It's that simple.

 

[Guest Floridian Cool]

And how is changing the finish behind his back honoring that clause? He should have said, "If you're not going to do the job then you're off TV and you don't get to say goodbye to your fans...hand over my belt and good luck in WCW"...end of story. And I still don't see how Vince couldn't "afford" Bret's contract...wasn't it only a million per year? I bet they spent that much on that ugly RAW is WAR set.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

And how is changing the finish behind his back honoring that clause? He should have said, "If you're not going to do the job then you're off TV and you don't get to say goodbye to your fans...hand over my belt and good luck in WCW"...end of story.

 

If Vince did that, Bret would just sue his ass for breach of contract. Bret was only going to do what he wanted in those last 30 days. That's why the clause was in the contract, to specifically prevent scenarios like the one you just mentioned.

[Guest Floridian Cool]

Okay...then couldn't Bret have sued him for breach of contract anyway? I fail to see your point/how the screwjob is NOT in violation of that clause. He changed the f'n finish! Either way, he just shot down Bret's creative control. The only difference is that the first scenario is classier.

[Guest Floridian Cool]

x

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Okay...then couldn't Bret have sued him for breach of contract anyway?

Then Vince would counter-sue over Bret punching him.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

As HTQ pointed out, Bret didnt' do himself any favors by attacking Vince after the show. At that point, it was probably in everyone's best interest to drop the whole thing. But if Vince said in advance that Bret had to job or else, Bret would have had him by the balls.

[Guest Floridian Cool]

So Vince's plan from the very beginning was to get punched so that Bret couldn't sue him? Wow, I had no idea that McMahon was the fucking Emperor from Star Wars.

 

Bret would have had Vince by the balls if he hadn't hit him. Sneaky screwjob or direct defiance of Bret's wishes, it is all in violation of the clause.

[StrapFinlay 0]

But how far does "reasonable" creative control go?

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

He can't actually prove that the finish that they did wasn't the one agreed upon on. Yes even the Wrestling with Shadows video could be picked apart by good lawyers.

[StrapFinlay 0]

He can't actually prove that the finish that they did wasn't the one agreed upon on. Yes even the Wrestling with Shadows video could be picked apart by good lawyers.

 

Perhaps it was the decision that was agreed upon

[Guest Floridian Cool]

Who allowed Bret to have that clause written into his contract in the first place? Vince. Basically, it all boils down to Vince being passive-aggressive in his business dealings. At least Bret wasn't hiding anything.

 

Obviously, Vince had no qualms about trampling over Bret's creative control. He violated the clause in the contract, he just went about it in the most underhanded way possible. If he was scared of legal action, he wouldn't have screwed him. If he wanted to get punched out just to cover his bases, why did he have to be dragged out of his office by Undertaker? He just didn't have the balls to say no to Bret's face.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

He can't actually prove that the finish that they did wasn't the one agreed upon on. Yes even the Wrestling with Shadows video could be picked apart by good lawyers.

Did you miss the taped conversation where Vince agrees to the run-in finish? Or where everyone involved in the originally intended finish were in the gorilla position waiting to run-in, and wondering what the hell was going on when the screwjob went down? It can be proved that the finish that went down wasn't the one agreed upon.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Well I think I misphrased. Yes it can be proved, but I think judges are very leery on ruling on pro wrestling cases where the world is so insular that it's hard to prove whether a case is legitimate or "worked". But I guess if a judge was willing to take everything as it is, it can be easily proved.

[StrapFinlay 0]

He can't actually prove that the finish that they did wasn't the one agreed upon on. Yes even the Wrestling with Shadows video could be picked apart by good lawyers.

Did you miss the taped conversation where Vince agrees to the run-in finish? Or where everyone involved in the originally intended finish were in the gorilla position waiting to run-in, and wondering what the hell was going on when the screwjob went down? It can be proved that the finish that went down wasn't the one agreed upon.

 

But to be ultra fussy, what can actually be proven beyond reasonable doubt? Or even on the balance of probabilities?

 

Yes, that section of the tape shows a finish being agreed. But who is to say more conversations were not held at a later point?

 

Yes, the wrestlers were in the Gorilla position waiting for the run-in - but that only goes to show they were told that was going to be the finish. It doesn't prove that was the finish agreed by Bret and Vince.

 

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

In the ten years since Montreal, I don't recall Vince ever using as his defense that idea that Bret is lying, and the finish that went down is the one they agreed to.